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Yesterday my friends and I were joking on Facebook (shut up) about Terry Gross's Fresh Air interview with Melissa Febos, author of Whip Smart: Memoirs of a Dominatrix. Terry Gross is pretty famous for being a great interviewer but she was way out of her depth. She just seemed unable to believe that "normal" people work in sex dungeons or patronize them. While talking to the author, Terry veered back and forth between "How did a nice girl like you end up doing this?" and "Thank goodness you no longer do that so I can have you on my show and you can explain it to me." (Melissa is now a professor who teaches writing at a college in NY.) It was patronizing and embarrassing. I mean, I get that Terry Gross might lead a sheltered life, or that she might be pretending to be naive because she thinks her audience is that uninformed, but do a little research before you have someone on your show if you're in new territory.
But Melissa's book brings up another issue that I like to call the "Good Sex Worker." White, educated women who do or did sex work, and then write about it. This has a strong feminist history--Gloria Steinem went "undercover" as a Playboy Bunny, Diablo Cody, Lily Burana, etc.--but I also find it a little troubling. We are expected to cheer The Good Sex Workers on because they are subverting paradigms and confounding out expectations of what a stripper is. But while the media loves this story, it marginalizes all of the women who aren't doing sex work to put themselves through college, or to pay for art supplies. The women of color and trans women and men who are forced into prostitution or who "choose" it because of a lack of other options. I feel like the more I read and hear about privileged women who really did chose to become sex workers, the more invisible those who didn't have such a clear choice become.
I got into a big argument with a Famous Older Feminist about this last year, because she really thought that any woman doing sex work had chosen to do it, and therefore rejected all that feminism has to offer. My feeling is that I am not interested in saying "You go girl" or "You bad, girl" to anyone in the sex industry but I think that feminism has a huge role to play in making sure that all women get to be heard and that they are making informed and educated decisions about their bodies.
This was long. The end. What do you guys think?
PS: I do not mean this as any kind of dis toward Lily (a beloved friend) or any other stripper.sex worker writers. They are telling their tales and being righteous. I just worry about them becoming the only type of story we hear in regards to sex work. The real end.
The opinions expressed on the BUST blog are those of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the position of BUST Magazine or its staff.
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written by lindzanne, March 09, 2010
This is EXACTLY what I was thinking as I read about this interview yesterday. Thanks for a great article. And I think it's extra important to emphasize that this is not about good/bad girl--if we let the issue disintegrate into only that we are doing all sex workers a disservice.
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written by K. A. Laity, March 09, 2010
Where did Gross get a rep for being a good interviewer? I have never heard her give a good interview. She always tries to force the interviewee into answers they do not wish to make.
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written by Tracey Cox, March 09, 2010
The only issue that I have with sex workers is when they are having sex with someone that is married or in a committed relationship. Are the wronged spouses aware that you can sue someone who sleeps with your husband (or wife) behind your back with something called "Alienation of affection" and the award is usually around half a million for the pain and suffering that the wronged spouse endures?
Something to think about.
If everyone involved has full disclosure and honesty, that's a different discussion.
Something to think about.
If everyone involved has full disclosure and honesty, that's a different discussion.
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written by K. A. Laity, March 09, 2010
Oh and yes, I think you're absolutely right. Slumming is fashionable, but many women seem to see it as one of the few options open to them, better than sub-minimum wage work, which as the glamour of these slumming bios and the gloss of Girls Gone Wild 'approval' behind it.
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written by mikki, March 09, 2010
Tracey, wha?? I think the husband is to blame in that situation!
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written by mikki, March 09, 2010
K.A., I don't know if I am down with the word "slumming," it has all kinds of assumptions in it about people's motives.
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written by Tracey Cox, March 09, 2010
Hi Mikki ...Of course the spouse going to the sex worker is to blame as well. I just think that most spouses with a significant other going to a sex worker would like to be notified. It's only fair. It would give them the option to leave the relationship, or whatever choice they need to make.
Just tryin' to keep the conversation lively!!
Just tryin' to keep the conversation lively!!
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written by Raya, March 09, 2010
The idea that Gloria Steinem is a voice for all playboy bunnies is like Oprah being a voice for all black women. I can't help but imagine that their experience is biased based on their priveledged and educated life (even if their life was not always so.) The point is that there is a worlds-apart difference between those few who "choose" to be sex workers when they have other options and the 18-year-old-parents-threw-her-out-single-mom-stripper. The latter is the one who really needs a voice, in my opinion.
Excellent article. Definitely not too long. We should talk about this more!
Excellent article. Definitely not too long. We should talk about this more!
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written by Lily Burana, March 09, 2010
No offense taken, dear girl! I am with you on this 100%.
I am on the edge of the "good sex worker" archetype--I dropped out of high school and really turned to the peep shows out of fear and desperation and it was DEFINITELY a huge secret for me for a long time. (This was well before it was "cool," which sort of emerged as a post-Riot Grrl 90s-ism). I never went to college, and based on how messed up I was as a kid in a lot of ways, I wouldn't ever say I really "chose" sex work as just another job, instead of, say, working in a coffee shop cuz I liked the money better in the adult business. But I am a middle-class white girl with educated parents, and I can sure as hell "pass" for normal, which is a form of privilege, no doubt.
Febos actually wrote about this "Nice Sex Worker" thing, too. It's on her blog, I believe. Since the late 90s, it seems the only girls who come forth are white girls, mostly educated, with middle-class backgrounds. You can't not notice it!
The question is, are these the only women who come forth to tell their stories, or are they the only ones the publishing executives will take on as projects? That's a hard one to know for sure. I would be interested in learning more of the backstory.
All this is quite apart from Gross' interview approach. I didn't hear it. I don't think it's unusual to elicit a "but you seem so NICE (or normal)" response from a person not familiar with the sex industry. Beats being insulted more directly, I guess. I'm fairly certain my book was received as well as it was because people who s-h-o-c-k-e-d that an icky stripper could express herself usin' the BIG words.
I am on the edge of the "good sex worker" archetype--I dropped out of high school and really turned to the peep shows out of fear and desperation and it was DEFINITELY a huge secret for me for a long time. (This was well before it was "cool," which sort of emerged as a post-Riot Grrl 90s-ism). I never went to college, and based on how messed up I was as a kid in a lot of ways, I wouldn't ever say I really "chose" sex work as just another job, instead of, say, working in a coffee shop cuz I liked the money better in the adult business. But I am a middle-class white girl with educated parents, and I can sure as hell "pass" for normal, which is a form of privilege, no doubt.
Febos actually wrote about this "Nice Sex Worker" thing, too. It's on her blog, I believe. Since the late 90s, it seems the only girls who come forth are white girls, mostly educated, with middle-class backgrounds. You can't not notice it!
The question is, are these the only women who come forth to tell their stories, or are they the only ones the publishing executives will take on as projects? That's a hard one to know for sure. I would be interested in learning more of the backstory.
All this is quite apart from Gross' interview approach. I didn't hear it. I don't think it's unusual to elicit a "but you seem so NICE (or normal)" response from a person not familiar with the sex industry. Beats being insulted more directly, I guess. I'm fairly certain my book was received as well as it was because people who s-h-o-c-k-e-d that an icky stripper could express herself usin' the BIG words.
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written by Ms. Christine, March 09, 2010
@mikki
It is not always husbands that solicit sex workers while in a committed relationship.
@Tracey
It's possible to be committed or married to someone and have an open relationship. That said, if you are in an exclusive relationship, it is your responsibility to stay within the boundaries of that relationship. The rest of the world has no obligations to you or your partner.
It is not always husbands that solicit sex workers while in a committed relationship.
@Tracey
It's possible to be committed or married to someone and have an open relationship. That said, if you are in an exclusive relationship, it is your responsibility to stay within the boundaries of that relationship. The rest of the world has no obligations to you or your partner.
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written by Intern Stephanie V., March 09, 2010
Melissa Febos is a professor at my alma mater! (Suny Purchase, y'all).
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written by Melissa Febos, March 09, 2010
Keen observations. I tend to agree, though I still love Terry. It's a good question about "Good Sex Workers," too. I actually wrote an essay about it, and my own discomfort with being one, originally published in Bitch Magazine, but reprinted here:
http://brooklyntheborough.com/?p=5389
Overall, however, my book is less about being a sex worker, and much more about my own specific psychological experience, of which being a domme was only a part. In interviews, that's never what people want to talk about. Every time I field questions that assume I'm trying to speak for anyone but myself, or really most of the questions I get asked, I just wish people would actually read my book before making assumptions. But I have nothing to complain about really. I'm glad these subjects are getting aired publicly.
http://brooklyntheborough.com/?p=5389
Overall, however, my book is less about being a sex worker, and much more about my own specific psychological experience, of which being a domme was only a part. In interviews, that's never what people want to talk about. Every time I field questions that assume I'm trying to speak for anyone but myself, or really most of the questions I get asked, I just wish people would actually read my book before making assumptions. But I have nothing to complain about really. I'm glad these subjects are getting aired publicly.
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written by mikki, March 09, 2010
Ms Christine, you are so right, I posted hurriedly. Thanks for pointing it out.
Melissa, thanks for the pointer to your piece! I definitely wasn't calling you out, just noting the overall phenomenon.
This also raises the question--does "getting heard" = "book deal"? There are other ways of feeling that your voice and your experience matter, and as Melissa noted, just bec you write a book doesn't necessarily mean you are getting your story across.
Melissa, thanks for the pointer to your piece! I definitely wasn't calling you out, just noting the overall phenomenon.
This also raises the question--does "getting heard" = "book deal"? There are other ways of feeling that your voice and your experience matter, and as Melissa noted, just bec you write a book doesn't necessarily mean you are getting your story across.
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written by Art Karr, March 09, 2010
I was the Bell Captain at a top major hotel chain where on Fridays and Sundays the vast majority of "hookers" were the wives of wealthy corporate executives. Waddaya think about that?
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written by mbalavage, March 09, 2010
Terry Gross is a good conversationalist. Her bias is too blatant to call her a journalist.
Onto the issue at hand: isn't part of modern feminism refusing to let the part speak for the whole?
Onto the issue at hand: isn't part of modern feminism refusing to let the part speak for the whole?
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written by Jacqui B., March 09, 2010
@Lily
I know of at least one former sex slave, Somaly Mam, who has published her story. She also has started a non-profit to end human trafficking. Of course for the one sex slave I can name who has told their story I can name three 'Good Sex Workers'.
I know of at least one former sex slave, Somaly Mam, who has published her story. She also has started a non-profit to end human trafficking. Of course for the one sex slave I can name who has told their story I can name three 'Good Sex Workers'.
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written by anonymouse, March 09, 2010
I think that there are multiple external and internal worlds in the "sex work industry". I think that many of us who do it and write about it actually suffer as a result - even if it was a choice, looked like fun, or if we made a lot of money and got out. I think that many whose voices don't get heard in 'this' world (academic, feminist hipster, Bust-reader) do get heard in other worlds, and are valued in other worlds.
Other populations than the afore-mentioned good sex worker profit from sex work, are damaged by it, go into it for money, for fun, for drugs, out of desperation, to put themselves through university; and 'white, educated women who do or did sex work, and then write about it' also share these reasons.
"The women of color and trans women and men who are forced into prostitution or who "choose" it because of a lack of other options" is the other (condescending) trope of sex work, but it seems sort of racist to assume that everyone who isn't white and educated, and a writer/artist is forced into sex work, or that they are solely victimized by it and don't profit from it in the same ways as the "good sex workers", or that all white women who do sex work had other options.
Other populations than the afore-mentioned good sex worker profit from sex work, are damaged by it, go into it for money, for fun, for drugs, out of desperation, to put themselves through university; and 'white, educated women who do or did sex work, and then write about it' also share these reasons.
"The women of color and trans women and men who are forced into prostitution or who "choose" it because of a lack of other options" is the other (condescending) trope of sex work, but it seems sort of racist to assume that everyone who isn't white and educated, and a writer/artist is forced into sex work, or that they are solely victimized by it and don't profit from it in the same ways as the "good sex workers", or that all white women who do sex work had other options.
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written by ima, March 11, 2010
I heard the teri gross interview, and while she was squeamish about the subject matter, she is always - though to a lesser degree- that way when the subject matter is about sex. But i think the bigger point is how the whole writer/sex worker thing has now come full circle. I definitely knew ladies in the early '90's who were stripping because they thought it empowered them, and they were all planning to write about it. Most had experienced some form or another of abuse as children or young adults. I would say that none of them had really made a free choice because they weren't liberated to begin with. And no truly liberated woman wants to be a sex worker. So I think the issue is more complicated than it looks on the surface. Being middle class doesn't prevent people from being self-destructive. It is annoying that these ladies get to whitewash their resumes with graduate degrees, while the same option is not available for your average single mom sex worker, but I also wouldn't wish for any woman to be held down by her past, and I give kudos to anyone who can take what could be a loss, and convert it to a gain. I thought the most compelling and telling part of the interview was when Febos said that she quit being a dominitrix because ultimately she did feel degraded by the work- by the subtext of the work.
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written by Crimson Cass, March 11, 2010
I have a few friends who are dominatrixes, and have been doing it for years, and who are not damaged people and who do not have a history of abuse. There are some people who truly enjoy the work - and being a dominatrix is work; it takes a lot of training and skill and can be quite fulfilling. It is a difficult business in many ways, one reason being that it is not a steady income. All of my friends have other jobs as well - they do the domination for extra money, and because they enjoy it.
My point is, the world of sex work is huge and multifaceted; what always happens when there are conversations about it is that people who have been trafficked are lumped in with those at the other end of the spectrum (those who are doing it because they enjoy it). This makes meaningful discussion difficult.
If we are going to be able to embrace sexuality and be comfortable with it, we're going to have to realize that what works for some people doesn't work for others. And some people want to include their sexuality in their working lives. This should not be any more degrading than wanting to incorporate art, or a talent for analyzing numbers, or whatever else gives someone fulfillment.
And no, none of my friends got into domination with the idea of a book deal in their future.
My point is, the world of sex work is huge and multifaceted; what always happens when there are conversations about it is that people who have been trafficked are lumped in with those at the other end of the spectrum (those who are doing it because they enjoy it). This makes meaningful discussion difficult.
If we are going to be able to embrace sexuality and be comfortable with it, we're going to have to realize that what works for some people doesn't work for others. And some people want to include their sexuality in their working lives. This should not be any more degrading than wanting to incorporate art, or a talent for analyzing numbers, or whatever else gives someone fulfillment.
And no, none of my friends got into domination with the idea of a book deal in their future.
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written by Juliana K., March 11, 2010
I'm a multiracial, college educated, ex-stripper from a lower middle class background and I agree with almost everything everyone is saying here! Though there certainly some lively and intelligent sex worker memoirs, I've always found the genre troubling. It reminds me of an excellent editorial Bob Herbert wrote for the NY Times a while back - "What Color Is that Baby?" about how racism shapes which missing and exploited children are reported on. Also, it seems like we collectively have a hard time dealing with complexities in the sex industry - seems like it's either a saucy lark, celebrating the audacity of the cute, white, only briefly a sex worker who writes the memoir and gets the book deal - or it's the dreary exploitation of poor women with abuse histories. Both are insufficient! And this puts me in mind of author Mary Gaitskill, also a former stripper, who has alluded to her frustration with the idea that sex work is more interesting than other industries... that the stripper is more fascinating, more revelatory of something we need to know than the office temp. Hm...
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written by gaineymeade, March 11, 2010
I completely agree with the previous criticisms of the interviewer. Terry Gross is really hit or miss in my experience. And more often miss. She conducted the interview as if she were appalled by the subject matter, as if it were beyond all possible comprehension that things like this occur anywhere in American society. She found the whole idea repugnant. The journalism is pretty flimsy when the phrase "normal people" arises in the line of questioning. It's tough to maintain the ruse of impartial, investigative journalist while so clearly stating a personal bias against the subject matter. I propose that just because an individual (Gross) does something (interviews) often (weekly on NPR) does not guarantee that individual is good at it.
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written by rockinZ, March 11, 2010
Why is it so bad to encourage women not to strip? It's as if everyone has gotten so overly p.c. that they've overlooked they are doing a man's bidding. I've def. noticed the trend of white hipster women working as strippers/sex workers and then surface back up to their born class to tell the story. There is classism in our country and poor women, trashy women, whatever you would call them don't have as ready access to the same vocal platform. And are they doing it for the same subversion f-you reasons? I don't know. But it wouldn't hurt to encourage women to protect their bodies and mind and avoid sex work if possible. I know, everyone is going to get pissed off. But don't be confused: I support my sisters in all their stripes-strips no matter what! And I don't think they're not feminists for doing their work.
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written by cupofjones, March 11, 2010
Terry Gross is a good interviewer when her interviewees are "manageable." But just wait until she gets someone who throws her for a loop (remember that interview she did in October with Tracy Morgan?!). Her squeamishness when it comes to anything even approaching "edgy" is apparent. But I do love her show, so I don't want to be too hard on the woman. Maybe she just needs a good rogering. I know I do.
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written by Justine Cross, March 11, 2010
It seems the solution to the problem of only having stories from white educated middle-class sex workers turned writers is to have those writers seek out other sex workers and former sex workers for THEIR stories. Most good writers are intelligent and educated so it's only logical that those are the stories we most often see in print.
We all know sex work isn't all pretty, but it's not all bad either. It does somewhat marginalize, but that's not the "Good Sex Workers"'s fault. I think it's important that these stories be told. I'm always happy to read them.
We all know sex work isn't all pretty, but it's not all bad either. It does somewhat marginalize, but that's not the "Good Sex Workers"'s fault. I think it's important that these stories be told. I'm always happy to read them.
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written by noise_chick, March 11, 2010
Just wanna say if you want a view of the other side of sex work (those forced into it) watch National Geographic's episode of "Taboo" on "Prostitution." They don't have video on the website of the NYC prostitute(s) they interview, but they do talk to girls in a Bangladeshi sex slum... as well as hookers in the Amsterdam and Australia.
http://channel.nationalgeograp...-Overview
Very thoughtful presentation of the good, the bad and the ugly.
http://channel.nationalgeograp...-Overview
Very thoughtful presentation of the good, the bad and the ugly.
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written by Big Mama, March 11, 2010
I am really sick of the idea of sex work, etc., somehow being cool and not degrading because a few smart women used the sex industry as a means for their art to get noticed (writing, music, etc.)To me they are sad women indeed because they were not forced into selling their bodies (to whomever shows up with some fast cash) because of abuse, poverty, etc. I could write a book about screwing people for money in my garden center, as a sideline to selling seeds, I suppose, and name it Garden Tart and WOW- some horn-dog producer/agent/publisher would notice me if the writing was half-way decent. DUH! You make your name selling out from the beginning, marketing your sexuality-as-your-brains, and you ain't no feminist, baby. And a just as disgusting side is to do it for easy money. YUK! Where is the feminism in selling your body to strangers?
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written by Jmm, March 11, 2010
I know a woman (my sister, in fact) who worked in an upscale club in New York City in the early 1980s. She does not use drugs now, but could not work (she called it work, it was prostitution) unless she had a little coke or a few shots of Jack. She was not sexually abused, but she grew up in a home where any mention of sex was taboo. She was also hardly ever told she was pretty, or smart or talented- by anyone- so she wouldn't become egotistical. Consequently, she suffered from an unrealistic self-image. When the club owner told her she could become a big star in his place, she believed him. She wasn't totally naive, she liked the drugs, she liked the glamor, she liked the promise of fame and dreams come true. She liked the attention. But she needed to run away to get out and had the $#it beat out of her for trying. But she did get out. She has a husband and child now. She's had vulva cancer (carcinoma in situ) from HPV.
It wasn't one choice that lead her to that. It was a series of little choices that added up. When women like "Famous Older Feminists" talk about choice they assume it's one biggie. It's not; it's a series of small, slippery choices that pile on top of each other and land you in a situation you don't know how to get out of.
My sister was 18 when she started "working."
It wasn't one choice that lead her to that. It was a series of little choices that added up. When women like "Famous Older Feminists" talk about choice they assume it's one biggie. It's not; it's a series of small, slippery choices that pile on top of each other and land you in a situation you don't know how to get out of.
My sister was 18 when she started "working."
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written by Sina, March 15, 2010
I think the problem here is that many people tend to see only one side of the sex-industry (as with other issues). Some think that all sex workers are drug-addict slaves, and others believe that all have chosen it. The reality is much more complex. I'm one of these "white, educated women who do sex work", but still very aware that there are people who are not so fortunate.
The overall image still seems to be that sex workers are victims, so I appreciate every book and article that proves otherwise.
As for sex work being empowering: I don't think it's especially feminist in itself, after all it's a traditionally female job and does little to break through gender roles. But one can do it in a feminist way, demanding respect and consideration.
The overall image still seems to be that sex workers are victims, so I appreciate every book and article that proves otherwise.
As for sex work being empowering: I don't think it's especially feminist in itself, after all it's a traditionally female job and does little to break through gender roles. But one can do it in a feminist way, demanding respect and consideration.
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written by MBT Chapa, March 22, 2010
I know, everyone is going to get pissed off. But don't be confused: I support my sisters in all their stripes-strips no matter what! And I don't think they're not feminists for doing their work.
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written by MsCat, March 26, 2010
I am a professional Dominatrix who also practices BDSM in my personal life. We are known as life-stylers.
I work out of my own dungeon in Sydney Australia and am therefore very selective with whom I choose to see, unlike those who work in B&D parlours.
In Australia what we do is legal and seen as sex work.
I do it for the pleasure and for the money. When I stop enjoying myself I will desist.
I waited until my children were all adults before indulging myself in that which brings me great pleasure.
I do not have a history of abuse, nor am I addicted to anything other than having fun.
I am a very mature woman (in my 50's) and this is my only source of income. I live very comfortably.
Each of us has our own unique story. I find the book to be refreshing, open, honest and not uncharacteristic of many stories I have heard from other Dominatrices.
Just because her story does not resemble mine in the least, does not make it less authentic.
I work out of my own dungeon in Sydney Australia and am therefore very selective with whom I choose to see, unlike those who work in B&D parlours.
In Australia what we do is legal and seen as sex work.
I do it for the pleasure and for the money. When I stop enjoying myself I will desist.
I waited until my children were all adults before indulging myself in that which brings me great pleasure.
I do not have a history of abuse, nor am I addicted to anything other than having fun.
I am a very mature woman (in my 50's) and this is my only source of income. I live very comfortably.
Each of us has our own unique story. I find the book to be refreshing, open, honest and not uncharacteristic of many stories I have heard from other Dominatrices.
Just because her story does not resemble mine in the least, does not make it less authentic.
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written by Discount Louis Vuitton, July 13, 2010
It is not always husbands that solicit sex workers while in a committed relationship.
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written by replica watches, August 03, 2010
I don't know if I am down with the word "slumming,"
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