[KeraBear]

Kera, with your intelligence you should probably go into medicine or physics or computer science but geez, girl, if none of those pan out you have a sure shot at a career in stand-up comedy! You crack me up on a regular basis! And I thank you for it!

Hey, thanks. Usually I don't feel like I really have enough life experience to give good advice. But I can always make someone smile. A comedian? Sort of like another small-breasted superstar that I know - Sarah Silverman!

Deeray, I think it's totally healthy that you are using that image to challenge the (false) belief planted by your ex-bf that small-breasted girls are less sexy. I think you are getting far more benefit from that than from that clueless therapist.

I was thinking this exact same thing. Your guy friend and his suggestion seemed to do way more good than the "professional." ...... oh yeah, and I second the idea that he may just have been flirting with you. YOWZA!

[discowombat]

Over time we've mentioned a number of small-breasted porn stars in here. It would rock to have a compiled list with links. Not sure I'll get time to do that soon - anyone else want to give it a go?

I don't have time to make a whole list but I can add one to it: Misty Mundae! My fiance doesn't watch a lot of porn but he has let me know that he is a fan of hers. She tends to do spoof porn too like Spiderbabe (Spiderman) and Lord of the G-string (Lord of the Rings). I'd be willing to bet that her body is similar to a lot of us here.

[strongirl]

Kera, with your intelligence you should probably go into medicine or physics or computer science but geez, girl, if none of those pan out you have a sure shot at a career in stand-up comedy! You crack me up on a regular basis! And I thank you for it!

Re. the fitness versus boobs thing, I tend to lose boobage with weight loss. And I have wrestled some with the fact that I know certain people (my parents especially) prefer me on the plumper and bustier side. But I just feel so much better within myself when I'm lean and strong, which is how I am most of the time. And this is my personal esthetic preference. When I've looked at implant "before and after" pics, my two strongest reactions are 1) most of them looked better before than after, and 2) they could have made a bigger improvement in my opinion by losing weight and getting in shape. Plus it would have benefitted their health rather than put it at risk, so win-win!

I totally agree with Angie re. the sincere smile. I also think flirting is becoming a lost art and that anyone who has the hang of it is in a totally advantaged position regardless of what they look like.

Over time we've mentioned a number of small-breasted porn stars in here. It would rock to have a compiled list with links. Not sure I'll get time to do that soon - anyone else want to give it a go?

Deeray, I think it's totally healthy that you are using that image to challenge the (false) belief planted by your ex-bf that small-breasted girls are less sexy. I think you are getting far more benefit from that than from that clueless therapist.

[angie_21]

DeeRay, it's almost impossible to predict how your body will respond, exactly, to losing and gaining weight. It turns out, I can gain or lose upwards of 20 pounds, and my breasts stay pretty much the exact same size. They're a touch smaller now, but it barely makes a difference. So for me, it's not much of a question. If they grew significantly when I gained weight elsewhere, no way I'd want to lose it lol. But one thing for sure, I felt so much better, inside and out, after losing weight last summer. It had a lot more to do with being stronger and tougher and having more energy than it did with how I looked (though I liked that too!). All those things helped me really stop worrying about how I looked so much.

One thing I can tell you, no matter what weight I've been at, the number one thing men respond to in all my experiences - a big, genuine smile.

[karategrrl]

i'm gonna start a body image movement called "real women have vaginas"! it'll catch on, you'll see.

LOL!!!!!

OMG, you ladies are cracking me up totally this week! Love it, love it!!!

[DeeRayy]

I hate hate hate the "real women have curves" campaign too because once again it's alienating another group of women.

Why does a body type have to define what a "real woman" is?? I am all for being supportive of curvy women, but not at the expense of everyone else.

We all need to be supportive of each other. I can't wait until that happens. I also hate being referred to as boyish or how my body type is labeled as boyish figure in magazines. I am not curvy, but why does that automatically mean I am "boyish". I wish we could get rid of that crap too!

my goodness i didn't see your post buttercups! i totally agree with what you said about the "real women have curves" thing. people are always talking about what the "average woman" looks like, how the "average woman" is a size 12 and 5'5". and it makes no sense. there is no way to accurately describe what the average woman looks like because we are all so unique. and those are just numbers that do not actually describe the variation between each and every woman. technically, if you have two women, one 5'4" and a size 10, the other 5'0" and a size 6, then the "average" between them would be a 5'2" woman who is a size 8. Now, does that mean you have two 5'2" size 8 women in front of you? No! you still have two completely different women in front of you. looking at the average means nothing,especially since there are so any other factors to appearance besides height and weight. there's the distribution of your weight, your natural body shape, your skin tone, your hair color. the list is infinite. there's no such thing as the average woman, every woman is different. and the media needs to stop trying to tell us otherwise.

and i tooootalllyy agree on the magazine thing. glamour supposedly preaches postitive body image among women (and i'm going to give them credit and say they're doing a way better job of that than any other mainstream magazine i've seen). yet, when i get to the whole "dress your body type" section there's four choices at the most and i can't decide whether i'm boyish or petite! so you're not alone there. those pieces are bull in my opinion because they often teach you to disguise your natural body shape instead of embracing it. they always tell the "boyish" women how to fake curves, or the pear-shaped women how to give the illusion of symmetry. i say wear what you like and what you feel good in. don't let a magazine tell you what you can and can't pull off.

so buttercups, you have a fellow "real women have curves" opponent.

i'm gonna start a body image movement called "real women have vaginas"! it'll catch on, you'll see.

[DeeRayy]

And might I add, I am not quite a full a 34A - my breasts look a lot like that Dani Jensen girl's, and on top of it I have cellulite and a bit of a belly (which she certainly doesn't) and ALL those things are OK!

Angie, i can tell you that i've got pudge on my tummy too and that's probably my second big insecurity because even though i'm not large i still manage to have some cushion there. when i said her body type is a lot like mine i meant petite and small breasted. she just looks a lot more like me from the neck down than any other porn star i've ever seen. you've posted in here about how you've lost weight, so what can you say to someone who wants to lose some but is afraid of losing the little breast tissue that she has? because although my tummy doesn't bother me nearly as much as my breasts, it still bothers me. but i get afraid of becoming comleeeetely flat. i might get scolded for that last comment but it's still a fear i have about starting a weight loss regimen.

[karategrrl]

The next time that little voice comes into your head. Take a deep breath... and go Achmed the Dead Terrorist on its ass!

"SILENCE!!!!! I KEEL YOU!!!"

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[angie_21]

Ha! I thought that too, Persi!

DeeRay, don't beat yourself up over how you feel. Everyone's got some insecurities, everyone wants to be beautiful. For me, the only way to stop caring about my breasts was to really, really start loving the other parts of my body. You aren't being shallow or silly for wanting to feel worthwhile and attractive, however, I think maybe I can teasingly tell you it might be silly to think you aren't those things already... I focused on what I did like about my body, and what my body can do for me, and also on other people's responses. No one ever looks at my little boobs and acts all disgusted, you know why? because they're actually quite nice! And I get long looks from a good percentage of the guys I walk past in a day. My guy friends compliment me on how I look, sometimes to the point of being inappropriate. And might I add, I am not quite a full a 34A - my breasts look a lot like that Dani Jensen girl's, and on top of it I have cellulite and a bit of a belly (which she certainly doesn't) and ALL those things are OK! Because I am happy and confident, and dress to show off what I have, choosing only clothes that fit with my frame, I never walk around feeling ugly anymore. (well never is a strong word, but compared to how I felt in the past - I felt a lot like you did, knowing I should be happy but not being able to). It took time, and it took my focusing on a lot of other things in life that make me feel like a strong, intelligent, and beautiful person. And at some point, I not only "accepted" my breasts, but started loving them as much as everything else. They are perky and bouncy, I have adorable tiny pink nipples, and they never get in the way when I am lifting weights or wall climbing! They never overpower an outfit I wear, I can wear low-cut sexy tops without attracting TOO much attention (if I want too much attention, then I throw on a miniskirt too. Ha!)

Sorry for rambling.. I'm late for work and no time to say anything coherent. I just want to say DeeRay, I am so glad you have the right idea and know in your head that you don't have to judge yourself for your breast size. Don't get too impatient with yourself - these things take time. Glad you're here!

[Persiflager]

*delurks*

DeeRayy, might your friend have been subtly hitting on you?

*relurks*

[KeraBear]

so, i know it shouldn't have such a big affect on me, yet it still does. i guess i just need help silencing the little voice in my head that tells me i'm not enough.

The next time that little voice comes into your head. Take a deep breath... and go Achmed the Dead Terrorist on its ass!

"SILENCE!!!!! I KEEL YOU!!!"

[KeraBear]

oooh... speaking as a fellow "boyish" sistah, I also hate the "Real Women Have Curves" message!! BUUUUUUUT.... I do like this video from Dove that I found on YouTube. I don't really see much of the "war on skinny" here, and it is more warring against the beauty industry in general. It's great! HOWEVVVVVER, I recently learned that Dove and Axe are owned by the same freakin' company! If you've ever seen an Axe commercial, you know what I mean. *rolling eyes*

[discowombat]

", i realized that if a man were to ever look at me and say "the only way i can truly accept you is if you get implants," i would kick his shallow keester to the curb in a heartbeat. so, how would it be fair for me to say that to myself? it's not."

Amen DeeRayy! I couldn't have said it better.

[DeeRayy]

karategrrl, thanks for the positive feedback!

i agree with you that i'm not a complete mess when it comes to this issue. it feels like there are two sides to me when it comes to the issues i have with my breasts. there's the logical, mature side of me that says that i really shouldn't be experiencing this much grief over the mere fact that i'm not busty. but then there's the self-doubting, overly emotional side of me that can't seem to get over it. so, i know it shouldn't have such a big affect on me, yet it still does. i guess i just need help silencing the little voice in my head that tells me i'm not enough. and i don't see my small breasts as a flaw, i just get really nervous about what guys think about them, and i just really don't want what happened in my last relationship to happen again. so there's a fear in my heart that the next guy i end up dating won't be satisfied with my breasts either, and that i'm going to feel completely helpless and inadequate all over again. and that's what most of my insecurity comes right down to- this fear of guys judging me. i know it's not right to be wary of all men just because of one guy, but it's difficult not to sometimes. and i know i shouldn't be so concerned with what guys think of me in the first place, but i'm working on that as well.

[karategrrl]

Hugs to DeeRay!!!

Two observations:
1. I agree with the others that this therapist you saw is not a good match for you. Sounds like she was maybe making an attempt to understand you (maybe throwing out these comments to see how you might respond to them??), but she was being not at all objective, which is what a great therapist would be, especially right off the bat. It can be tough to find a good therapist. Keep looking. I totally understand and agree to some extent about how you feel talk therapy might mean focusing on the problem, not the solution, but a skilled therapist will be solution-oriented and who kind of figuratively holds your hand as you become empowered on your own. The decision is yours, and you know you have my (and everyone else's) full support on this!!

2. I have to be honest and say I'm totally blown away at the insight and depth of your very last post. If I were to judge from that alone, I'd say you truly DO have a VERY good handle on your views and feelings about this issue. Sounds like you are very grounded indeed but just need some support as you strengthen your own sense of body image and self-worth, and deal with the asshats that come your way. Do you feel like this is right? If not, please correct me. But I had to give you that feedback, grrl. You rock, seriously.

Much love and hugs.

[buttercups]

DeeRayy I'm so sorry to hear about all of your struggles and how much more difficult your mom makes the whole situation. Once again I have to commend you for being you no matter what everyone else around you says. It is especially hard to stand your ground when its your family, and your own mother no less, that are telling you to do something that you not only don't want to do, but that makes you feel even worse about yourself. God I wish we could switch moms for a day, my mom would definitely give you an ear-full of the anti-implant talk. She can't even stand to hear me even mention it and if I do it always turns into a fight. Of course this isn't the best way either, because I think that what we both want is just support from the people in our lives that we value the most. But honestly, to stay strong when you are surrounded by pro-plastic surgery women is extremely difficult and you are so brave to do that. It will get easier when you move away for school but until then we are always here for you!

I hate hate hate the "real women have curves" campaign too because once again it's alienating another group of women. Why does a body type have to define what a "real woman" is?? I am all for being supportive of curvy women, but not at the expense of everyone else. There is all this media around now about how size 0 women are ugly and unnatural and it makes me feel like crap because I already felt like I didn't fit in. Yes, I'm a size 0, but no, I am no super model. I am short, with stubby legs, and my body resembles that of a small child. I have been this way my whole life and it is not something that I'm proud of or appreciate, so I don't really need other people telling me how bad it looks. We all need to be supportive of each other. I can't wait until that happens. I also hate being referred to as boyish or how my body type is labeled as boyish figure in magazines. I am not curvy, but why does that automatically mean I am "boyish". I wish we could get rid of that crap too!

And last but not least, I just have to say wow, thank your friend for me, because I just looked up dani jensen and have never before in my life seen a girl with boobs like mine! Those look exactly like mine too and I can't believe it! I almost want to show my bf and be like "look, I found a girl who looks like me! Your gf is not a freak of nature!" I am still in disbelief, guess we're boobie twins DeeRayy!

[DeeRayy]

Agreed, buttercups and angie.

but, for some reason i'm getting the feeling that talk therapy might not be the solution to my problems. maybe i just haven't found the right therapist yet, but i'm actually sick and tired of talking about how badly i feel about my body. it just makes me focus more on the problem. i went to therapy hoping that i would get some direction or some exercises to do, but we just ended up talking for an hour about how i feel. maybe that part will be introduced in the next session (fingers crossed). she did recommend that i buy a journal because she saw right away how emotional i became once we got past the whole "what was your childhood like" stuff and i actually started talking about my body issues.

dove is actually going to be doing a "real beauty" presentation at my university. however, i'm not so sure it will benefit me. I'm a member of the student organization that is putting the event on and my adviser stated that it was going to showcase full-figured women. and immediately in my head i was like "ohhh noo, another 'real women have curves' rally". I absolutely LOATHE that slogan. whenever i hear someone saying that, i automatically ask in my head, "so because i'm petite and of modest proportions, you don't think i'm a 'real woman'?". ugh, total bullcrap. those women are no better than skinny women who call overweight people "gross". i actually feel odd because of these movements, because while i'm not a curvy plus size girl, i'm also not extremely thin either. i'm just an average frame, healthy girl who happened to only develop an a-cup. and it makes me feel like i'm in this odd middle ground because i see the struggles of both sides, and i sometimes feel stuck.

which brings me to another source of frustration. i am oh so very tired of my mom suggesting that i eventually get implants whenever i try to talk to her about the issues i'm having. she literally says, "if you don't want to change it, then what the heck do you want??"

I want her to support me and help me get through this rough patch is what i want! i don't want her to constantly suggest that i just get it "fixed" and move on. it's ridiculous how so many of the women in my family think that cosmetic surgery will solve all of their problems. i have an aunt who is planning on getting implants and a lift so that they'll look "fuller and more rounded". but here's what upsets me about it- she is a double d cup and only twenty nine! my mom wants a tummy tuck to get rid of evidence of childbirth, and said implants would also "be nice" even though she is a full c already. my god! and when i see how unsatisfied they are with their busts, i think "oh god, if they need implants then i what the hell do i need? two damn beach balls shoved in there??" all i can say is thank goodness i'm moving away for next school year.

now, i have done research online and ultimately decided that implants are just not what i want. i could go on for days why i decided not to even think about it. health risks, money, replacement surgery, possible complications, and having a greater risk of breast cancer going undetected were all huge stop signs for me. i also feel like if i did get implants i would always question whether the guys i would end up dating would have still been interested in me without the fake boobs, and that's a question i should not have to be asking myself.

but more importantly, i realized that if a man were to ever look at me and say "the only way i can truly accept you is if you get implants," i would kick his shallow keester to the curb in a heartbeat. so, how would it be fair for me to say that to myself? it's not.

however, there are times when implants feel like my only choice or my only way out of my current emotional state. i sometimes feel like i have two choices- stay small and feel inadequate, or get implants and feel fake. it definitely feels like i'm damned if i do and i'm damned if i don't sometimes. but in those moments i remember the words in the paragraph that i typed above and i just suck it up and move on with my day.

well idk where i was really going with this whole thing. i just needed a good rant, and i think i'm finished. but i will end on a positive note! i talked to one of my friends for the first times about the hard time i'm having right now and it was the first time i had ever actually admitted my insecurities to him. and he told me to look up a porn star named dani jensen. well i'm not the biggest fan of pornography, but i'm also not a prude when it comes to porn either so i went ahead and did it. and it made me feel so much better! her boobies look just like mine! and her overall body shape is a lot like mine too! i figured, if she can make a living as a porn star then i should at least be able to look myself in the mirror without frowning at my chest. idk if i'm gonna come off as a perve for this but i now have a topless picture of her saved (but hidden haha) on my computer. it's not to ogle or anything, but she looks beautiful in the picture so now on those days when i'm not feeling so desirable i can look at that picture and say, "remember, there are probably dozens of guys pleasuring themselves this very minute to a pair of booblets that look just like yours!" so hopefully that'll serve as a nice little pick-me-up from time to time.

[buttercups]

Totally second what angie said DeeRayy, it sounds like she has no experience in this area and just does not get it. I would have felt awful too if thats what a counselor said to me. They are supposed to be challenging your beliefs about yourself, not reinforcing them. Maybe do a little research in your area about what psych specialties are around and find someone who specializes in issues with body image/self-esteem. That is the kind of person you really need to go to, if this woman as already done more damage I would suggest not going back and finding someone else local who knows what they're talking about.

[angie_21]

Jumping in to say DeeRay, if you aren't feeling a connection with this counsellor, it's considered totally OK to request someone else. The fact that she is making statements like that instead of taking it as a really problem (as any other body issue problem) bugs me. No one would say to someone with a body dismorphic disorder about being overweight, "I bet that makes it harder to shop for clothing." Really insensitive. If you want, give her a second chance, but I feel like maybe this is not her area of specialty.

[DeeRayy]

heyy guys,
just a quick update on the whole me going to therapy thing. The lady I went to at my school counseling center actually made me feel worse than when I came in! It was actually kind of an upsetting experience. I went ahead and told her why I came and we started talking about my issues with my breasts and why they affect me so much and she says this to me,
"I can see why it's such a struggle for you because often times breasts are what separates women from men."
Can anyone else see why this comment upset me?? I basically felt like she was saying I wasn't female. and i just kind of felt like she had a bit of a condescending tone. she also said things like ,"oh i would imagine it makes it harder to shop for clothing, doesn't it?." and in my head i kept disagreeing with her. idk, i'm really not feeling her, and i'm dreading going back. i don't feel like she's going to end up helping me.

but what do you guys think? am i just being too sensitive?