[katiebelle2882]

well, a few people did say that at 15 no matter who its with you arent mature enough. (it was my BF who was 16) and my only point was that some are. and i also mentioned i had slept with a 20 year old when i was 16, and people were condescending about that. people who also mentioned they didnt care if they were condescending. hence my comment about people not remembering what its like to be 15 or 16.

anyway i would be interesting in the "what is an adult" debate too. especially since states have different laws concerning that issue when it comes to the age of consent.

and in response to "abortion is the answer", no, its not, however, its an option. one of course that i do think you should be mature enough to realize you might be faced with if you have sex. if you cant imagine what you would do if you got pregnant, then no, you shouldnt have sex. abortion is never the ideal answer for anyone no matter what their age. also, in ny, and i would know this, if you are a student, medicaid covers it. sadly, thats not the case for all states. also, it may not be the case anymore since bush has been around for a long enough time now.

[maddy29]

Wow, I missed so many interesting posts!

Mr. fj-to clarify, I wasn't accusing you of anything in my last post, I just wanted to be clear where we were disagreeing. I agree with you that a college student and TA, or prof is much different than a middle school student and his teacher.

good points made about kids having sex with each other vs. adults having sex wtih kids. Also, when is a kid an adult? This is a murky area and there's really no way to legislate it in a way that's fair to everyone-like most of our laws. But it's true, the problem isn't with the kid, it's with the adult. this reminds me of the porn conversation, where every time we get stuck in these murky areas, and it's hard not to want "an answer." it's like the supreme courts definition of pornography was "I know it when I see it." It's similar- it depends on the specific kid.

and yes, lots of adults have sex with not nice people, or get into bad situations or whatever, but as a society we have a different responsibility for our kids, at least i think so.

katie-who did you have sex with for the first time? was it your teacher? track coach? a college student, or who? i think you are feeling attacked or judged by the fact that you had sex when you were 15. And that's just not so. No one here is saying you did something wrong, or you weren't mature enough to handle it. This isn't about at what age a person has sex at, ya know? also, i'm 29, i don't have kids, i remember being 15, 18, etc. i don't really appreciate the "all you old busties are out of touch."

[katiebelle2882]

see, exactly, different strokes for different folks. yeah ok a 13 year old sleeping with a 20 year old, not so cool, but a 16 year old, or a 17 year old (esp since 17 is the legal age of consent in many states-i think 16 is in some places as well) then perhaps we can base it on personal maturity rather then a blanket statement.

and actually, i forgot about that, 17 is the age of consent in many states, and since so many of you are focused on the law, is it ok then? or should the age always be 18?

[free_spirit]

I don't know grown women who can handle these types of situations without it taking a huge emotional toll on them, [/color]but they certainly can handle it better than they could have at 16.

I had a friend in school who seemed to have to wisdom and maturity of a grown woman, and was like the mother hen of us all. When she got pregnant by her 20 year old boyfriend at 15, her mature facade crumbled. They got married, suddenly she was thrown in to this life, making adult decisions. She used to call me crying, all she wanted was her mom. She's now a depressed alcoholic who hates her husband and her kids. She feels like she was robbed of her youth. Tell me she was mature enough to be making those decisions. Horseshit.

I concur...I couldn't agree more...

[pepper]

i do regret it. i can't help that, i have a child now and even though i wasn't sure how it would go because i am on my own, i still look back and know that it would have been hard but this boy i have now is what i gave up then. and then again the next time at 20.
you don't have regrets, i do. different strokes for different folks. am i glad i had the choice? absolutely. do i wish someone had given me some better guidelines and set down rules that i couldn't break(law or mamalaw)? you bet your butt. if it had been an adult who got me knocked up that first time instead of the dual idiodicy of me and my 17 year old boyfriend i sure as fuck would feel damn taken advantage of, n/m that i had been living on my own and working/going to school for two years at that point. i was SO not a grown up yet.

amilita, right ON what you said about the brain. so true. man, you couldn't tell me anything as a teenager. i thought i was so right that i moved out! stupid me.

[katiebelle2882]

i got one when i was 19 . dont be so quick to judge. its not easy at any age. just because i said "i would have gotten an abortion" doesnt mean i have never had one. what i am saying is, that option is there, if it comes down to it. preferably, you never get pregnant when you arent expecting it. and really, whether i was 19 or 25 and i didnt want the child, i would have felt the same way about it. do i regret it? not one bit. was it upsetting? sure, but not as upsetting as raising an unwanted child. and i am adopted, so dont even start to go there with me.

[pepper]

abortion ~ "i would have gotten one had i gotten pregnant at 17"

uh, right. well let me say that i was having sex at that age, i did indeed get pregnant and i felt that an abortion was my only option.
nice, quick easy solution you say? well, that's a simple pov from the girl who Wasn't on the table with tubes shoved up her cootchie being what felt like totally violated by a stranger while the baby she should never have gotten knocked up with was sucked the hell out.
if was HELL, totally emotionally scarring, and certainly not an ideal solution as far as i'm concerned. easy to say when it isn't you.

damn.

[katiebelle2882]

thats the thing, i think there should be, bc the majority of children cant decide for themselves. my only point is that i do believe some indeed can. also, i mean laws in ny state that if they are 3 years apart or less its not statutory rape (as far as i know) which means a 17 year old and a 19 year old can have sex and its not illegal. something i believe makes sense.

[roseviolet]

Katie, it seems clear that you do not believe that we should have statutory rape laws. In your opinion, what is the answer?

[yuefie]

Indeed, word to whomever pointed out that teens having sex and an adult having sex with a teen are two very different subjects.

And a grown woman preying on young men is no less heinous than a grown man preying on young women.

[amilita]

Also, I want to point out that teenagers' brains are still developing. It's been studied and substantiated that teenagers DO NOT and CANNOT think like adults...I don't care how mature-acting they are. Or think they are.

A couple quotes from just one article I found when I googled this topic:

"One area in development well beyond the teenage years is the medial prefrontal cortex, a large region at the front of the brain associated with higher-level thinking, empathy, guilt and understanding other people's motivations. Scientists have now found that, when making decisions about what action to take, the medial prefrontal cortex is under-used by teenagers. Instead, a posterior area of the brain, involved in perceiving and imagining actions, takes over."

"Whatever the reasons, it is clear that teenagers are dealing with, not only massive hormonal shifts, but also substantial neural changes. These changes do not happen gradually and steadily between the ages of 0–18. They come on in great spurts and puberty is one of the most dramatic developmental stages."

This is absolutely important to the issue of needing guidance and the ability to make decisions.

And word to whomever said that the issues of young people deciding to have sex together vs. adults having sex with young people are completely different!

[greenbean]

I just wanna say that I think there is a big difference between 12, 13, 14 and 16, 17, 18...mostly because many kids after 15 are starting in afterschool/summer jobs and learning to drive...two things that I think matures kids.
I knew a girl at 14 who was the only girl in our group who was having sex, and it was with an 18 year old. She would brag about it but I was so NOT jealous,..I thought it was kinda sick. He was way creepy and had this 'so cool' attitude that obviously didnt impress girls his own age. He even got her to have anal sex, and she seemed really damaged by it. She didnt say she was bothered by it, but I could tell she was. I think she was a little girl playing teenager, and ultimatly got in over her head.

I agree that boys arent given the oppurtunity to claim assault, because they are supposed to 'like it'.
Similiar to what Pepper said about her ex, I had an ex that lost his virginity as a freshman to a senior girl. Tho he boasted it like a badge of honor, he still seemed very vulnerable and confused about sex, and used sex as a way of personal validation. Needless to say our sex life was complicated and led to our demise...

Neither of the above situations would be considered assualt, and arent as controversial as teacher/student senarios....but I personally think the gap between a 14 yr old and an 18 yr old is too wide,...and it doesn't have to do with an 18 yr old being legally an adult, but that they ARE at a much different place in life than kids 14 and younger. Thats my opinion.

[yuefie]

Oh, I see. Abortion is the answer. Go ahead and screw kids, you just get an abortion. And yeah, all teens have the means and access to the funds necessary to just go and get an abortion.

Glad you have it all figured out.

[katiebelle2882]

thats why abortion is legal. and i would have gotten one had i gotten pregnant at 17. or even 16. or whatever. i was mature enough to realize that i would never, ever have a child at that age. even at 24, i still would have one.

[yuefie]

Well, as someone who not only began having sex 16, but also got married at 17 I have to agree that no matter how mature you seem for your age, you ARE still a child. And no, I do not have children yet, so that is not the reason why I feel that way now.

What's scary to me is that I was seeminly mature enough to baffle them with my bullshit, making my way through premarital counseling and getting the blessing of of our parents. I put on such an adult act. I didn't feel like I was acting at the time, but hindsight is 20/20. Our motivation for wanting to be married was simply that we didn't want to "burn in hell" for screwing our brains out and felt our only alternative was to get married. We were not really dedicated to eachother, we were not ready to build a life together, we just wanted to be able to have sex without the burden of guilt. We were kids, through and through and you best believe that sham of a marriage didn't work out.

Teenagers are still children. It is still a parents responsibility to teach and protect them. You can't say because someone "seems mature" they are ready to handle all the shit that comes with being sexually active. So, because they "seem mature" means if they end up pregnant (cause let's face it, part of having sex is taking the risk of becoming pregnant. Nothing is 100%) and the father bolts, they are going to be able to handle it? I don't know grown women who can handle these types of situations without it taking a huge emotional toll on them, but they certainly can handle it better than they could have at 16.

I had a friend in school who seemed to have to wisdom and maturity of a grown woman, and was like the mother hen of us all. When she got pregnant by her 20 year old boyfriend at 15, her mature facade crumbled. They got married, suddenly she was thrown in to this life, making adult decisions. She used to call me crying, all she wanted was her mom. She's now a depressed alcoholic who hates her husband and her kids. She feels like she was robbed of her youth. Tell me she was mature enough to be making those decisions. Horseshit.

[mornington]

exactly, syb. I think a lot of kids have sex before they're emotionally mature enough - mature enough full stop - but while that's near as much impossible to stop, then they need to be educated about what they're doing.



I'd rather an emotionally immature fifteen-year-old had sex with another fifteen year old than with an adult any day - and I think the adults really do have to be responsible; if they're not legally held responsible then they don't have anything to stop them taking advantage.

[sybarite]

There is a difference between supporting and educating teenagers under 18 who choose to have sex and condoning a relationship between someone under 18 and an adult.

The age at which kids start having sex is a separate issue. An important one, but still separate.

[girlygirlgag]

well the point is is not everyone is the same.

Maybe not, but until a child is an adult, and not just 18, They do not need to be embarking on inappropriate relationships, with adults.

Also, some of the most mature teenagers I know and have worked with are the ones who are waiting to grow up a bit more before they start adult relationships.

there are people who are 30 who cant handle having a kid. should they not be having sex either? this smacks of serious right wing ideology for me.

This is not just about kids having sex it is about adults having sex with kids, which you seem to claim is okay if it is a young boy and a hot older teacher. Teenagers will have sex and as a parnet I plan to try my damndest to steer them into waiting, because it is such a heavy issue.

[katiebelle2882]

there are people who are 30 who cant handle having a kid. should they not be having sex either? this smacks of serious right wing ideology for me. the fact is, kids are going to have sex whether you like it or not, the best you can do is tell them what you think is right, and then help them take precautions so that they dont end up pregnant. the more you try to tell them no, the more they are going to do it and go against your will.

i dont know, i just dont see myself and harmed by losing my virginity at that age, and frankly, from other peoples experiences i have heard at ages even as old as 20, mine was far better then theirs.

parents dont always know whats best for their kids. and i am not talking necessarily about this situation, but saying how you will boss your kid around when they are adults doesnt mean you will be telling them to do whats right for them. so many parents i see tell their kids what is actuallty right for the parent, and not the child. perhaps this is something that just happens when you have kids, which is another reason why i dont want any.

[pepper]

"I would hope that, even as a mother, i could be objective enough not to be a hypocrite and tell my daughter (if she was mature for her age) that she was wrong for doing something like that."

hypocrite shmipocrite, that's a mom's damn job. none of us like having to be the strong arm with our kids, believe me, but that's what we're here for. i'm not about to let my kid/s make grown up decisions until they show me that they can act like a grown up. i don't know about you but i haven't EVER met a 16 yr old who can live up to what an adult has to be responsible for every single day, nor should they ever have to. that is what parents are for, not only to take care of the multitude of details that keep our lives on track but to have a little foresight into what is ultimately healthiest for our kids. it's a freaking tough job but someone's gotta do it.

i wish, i WISH that someone had been looking out for me a bit more when i was that age. i did stupid, stupid things and got in lots of trouble because i had such little guidance (my mom had three of us on her own and i was the oldest by far). of course i don't regret anything that i did growing up, ultimately it lead me to be who i am, but i do think it could have gone another way and ended up just as good if not better.

he can get a tattoo when he's 19 and not one day sooner and if i find out he's screwing at the tender age of 16 i'll kick his teenaged ASS! until he's responsible enough to handle the natural consequence of sex (hello, that would be a BABY) he can just wait for the act. yes, i will continue to be a strict mother for the rest of his life, i will boss him around (with love) even when he is an adult, and he will respect me and listen to me. because i am his mom and i love him and we talk about stuff. even now, as a little kid, he understands that i tell him what to do because it is my job and because i'm trying to do what's best for him. i won't ever let him forget that.

*what sybarite said*

thank god, Thank God i have the law backing me up on this one.