[karategrrl]

I have to say, it seems like what a lot of us are recognizing is that it's great to accept and love oneself however you look, but another thing to go a big step further and say that your way it the only way to be, and everyone else is wrong to be the way they are.

[karategrrl]

She had the last laugh, though - she quit when she got a job as a runway model.

OH! That is just TOO fucking GREAT!
I, too, have been on the receiving end of that shit, though I must say, it wasn't as blatant.

"to help us stop giving offense to any whose eyes fall upon us."
Wow, that was well-said!

And welcome, Eris Sweetleaf!! Haven't seen you here before, or maybe I missed something--which is totally plausible! Great insights!!

[strongirl]

I totally agree, Eris Sweetleaf. And you raise a very good point about the underlying motivations when people put other people down over body shape/size - it's just competitive "one-upping", trying to elevate their status by putting other people down.

Your point about two types of women can really be expanded to people in general and comes down to whether one wishes to view others with compassion and support versus competition and vain self-promotion. There are those who wish to lift up and those who wish to tear down.

"It makes me sad that a lot of women don't seem to grasp the concept that empowerment doesn't mean attacking people who have done nothing to you."

I couldn't agree more.

And I do think there are racial issues that come into play with body type. I once worked in an office with a really gorgeous tall, thin, smalll-breasted young woman who was the only African-American woman in the office, with (other than me) mostly overweight, older white women. She took some serious shit in the form of "back-handed compliments" - things like "Eat a cheeseburger!" "Oh, I didn't see you, you were turned sideways"...just out of the blue. She handled it gracefully but it really used to piss me off. She had the last laugh, though - she quit when she got a job as a runway model.

[Eris_Sweetleaf]

Wow. Hugely great insight there. Thanks, Kera, for sharing and Secretsights, for insightful commentary.

I think I've failed to see this issue clearly because I've squelched myself and said to myself "oh, it's just sour grapes, you're just pissed because you're skinny and now you need to shut up and give the big girls their time in the limelight". So I never made the connection of "being skinny is seen as promoting bad body image, but having implants is not." That is huge for me. Thank you for the virtual "smack upside the head".

There is a "war on skinny" now and thanks for phrasing it so succinctly, Secretsights. But it's no different than the "war on fat" that reigned when I was growing up. In both cases, the underlying assumption is that we as women are not good enough, we're ugly, we're inadequate. And that we need outside intervention and "experts" - plastic surgeons, diet doctors, diet pills, undergarments that either pad us or shrink us - to help us stop giving offense to any whose eyes fall upon us.

And of course, there's money to be made off of that process.

I'm tired of women's bodies being the goldmine for greed and the battlefield for war and politics (Congo, Egypt spring to mind as recent examples, as well as the current debates here in the US over breastfeeding and also abortion). I wanna shout "Leave us the fuck alone!"

I've also had my mind on something like this as well because its apparently the 'in' or ;right' thing do which is one of the biggest reasons I dislike hypocritical 'movements' like this. Don't get me wrong; anorexia is a muffed up thing to try as is any eating disorder but from my years I have realized that there are two types of women;

1) The ones that realize that each person on this earth goes through their own kind of sh** and its not fair nor is it right to try to challenge them to see who 'has to go through the most suffrage'

and then there is camp...

2) The women who are just plain VAIN and want to make themselves feel better by putting others down for NO REASON other than they look like those that attack them.

Urgh, this crap drives me mad. As a black woman the 'real women have curves' mantra is all over the place because apparently there is a standard of what black woman should look like. There is a lot of mind-boggeling logic behind all this thinking but to put it in topic for this forum, let's just say that to some folks, a skinny, small-chested black woman is apparently not natural. You guys remember Monique? She made her career of her 'skinny bitches are evil' jokes so you can imagine how I hold her in my opinion as far as entertainers, hell, even ROLE MODELS go.

It makes me sad that a lot of women don't seem to grasp the concept that empowerment doesn't mean attacking people who have done nothing to you. You aren't helping anyone who ACTUALLY HAS ANOREXIA by belittling a slim woman who doesn't have it but whatever; they are apparently just in their saying because they 'suffered', never mind the fact that when a woman who isn't 'curvy' tries to talk about being bullied because of her own size, she is always told that she is making it up, it never happens or she should be 'thankful that she's skinny'

How does this help anyone? It DOESN'T and if anything, these 'wars on' aren't empowering women but rather keeping them from coming together because we are told that one side is the enemy to the other when its just not true. I mean, really. Its like some people feel threatened by those that haven't done anything to them. A skinny woman on the street, especially if there is nothing wrong with you, isn't going to cause all little girls to hunch over the toilets as much as a large woman isn't disgusting.

Its vanity. Nothing but vanity.

[karategrrl]

I agree. The photos they use just show ill fitting bras.

True. This annoys me--the "my cups runneth over" thing is exactly what they tell you NOT to do when correctly fitting a bra, for it creates bumps and ridges under your top. But I guess that's OK when you're not wearing a top.

[anarch]

Awesome, discowombat. Thanks for the comments and link. I had seen that photoshop breakdown before but I'd forgotten.

[discowombat]

http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php...y-Victoria.html A detailed analysis shows that they pretty much photoshopped everything on this one.

[discowombat]

Actually, let me rephrase. While the photos don't actually show flesh bulging out the sides or over the top and all the other things that logically would come with having the girls pushed up that high, I realize that those unpleasantries have likely been photoshopped out. If the bras looked uncomfortable they wouldn't sell, and we all know that anything fashion related is generally photoshopped to hell and back.

The other thing that irks me is that they try to sell you something whether it fits or not. "Sorry we don't carry your band size, but try on this one is already loose on the tightest hook. It'll be fine"... anyways that's what the usual sales spiel sounds like to me. If their sales ethic works like that I hardly trust that the photos in the magazine aren't doctored to conceal the fact that their models are probably wearing bras a couple sizes too small to get that look. I'm sure there's some creative cleavage shading involved as well.

[discowombat]

All those VS models busting out of their cups bugs me too

I agree. The photos they use just show ill fitting bras.

[anarch]

oops, thanks for the correction, secretsights. Kera, thanks for linking to that blog!

"Operation Beautiful," what a wonderful idea.

All those VS models busting out of their cups bugs me too, actually. Only, I got some of my favourite tops and sweaters from there, so I keep checking back.

Oooooh Hottiecups! That nickname sure suits what we know of you, buttercups. Would you mind being called Hottiecups every once in a while? (KeraBear, I love your mind.)

[KeraBear]

Oh hey anarch, I'm also glad that you're back! Although it was Kera who posted the link to the blog, but I agree it was a really good read...

Oh and GO BUTTERCUPS! I'm sure that you'll do great with your training, it takes a bit of patience, but the results will be worth it...

I also found this, and I really felt identified with that post... I've thought or felt a lot of what is written there... it kind of helped me reinforce the perspective that we need to find beauty in our uniqueness and just fuck societal expectations...

Operation Beautiful - Dear Society

Great essay! *Kerabear clicks like button* Did you read about the mission of Operation Beautiful? That is so seriously cool.

And go Hottiecups!

[secretsights88]

Oh hey anarch, I'm also glad that you're back! Although it was Kera who posted the link to the blog, but I agree it was a really good read...

Oh and GO BUTTERCUPS! I'm sure that you'll do great with your training, it takes a bit of patience, but the results will be worth it...

I also found this, and I really felt identified with that post... I've thought or felt a lot of what is written there... it kind of helped me reinforce the perspective that we need to find beauty in our uniqueness and just fuck societal expectations...

Operation Beautiful - Dear Society

[buttercups]

Ooo thanks ladies for all the great protein advice! I have a nutrition supplement type store near me, so I'll check that out for some protein powder. If 40-46 g is about what I should be getting, I am nowhere near that! Hopefully I'll see some improvement if I up the protein.

Welcome back anarch! Missed you!!

[anarch]

I've been away, but oh what a treat to come back here and read all your contributions. This community rocks.

secretsights, thanks for posting that blog essay. More people need to read it. It, and y'all's wise comments here, too.

[karategrrl]

Great advice, strongirl! I forgot about the protein supplements!

I, too, take one, within an hour of a weight workout. My hubby started me on this and I was skeptical, but it does make a difference. Plus it's a great thing to drink first thing in the morning as a morning shake--when you have that protein intake on an empty stomach, it apparently absorbs quickly.

I like this one ON protein. All the flavors taste really good. One scoop of that plus a little milk in a shaker bottle does it. To get fancy, I add a banana and put it in the blender, which makes a nice healthful, filling snack anytime. Large continer runs about $40 US but lasts a long time. You can find a nutrition or bodybuilding store and explain what you need--the peeps who own them typically seem to be pretty knowledgeable, at least in my experince.

Plus I'm big on women getting enough protein to fight osteoporosis and all that nasty stuff.

[strongirl]

Hey there, Buttercups and Karategrrl - no, I'm not a personal trainer, that was Spot-on. But I am a lifelong athlete and nutrition-nut. Buttercups, I suspect you are not getting enough protein. You need to try to figure out what you're getting daily, in grams - general guidelines are 40-46 grams for an adult female weighing 110 lbs.

I had been a runner and mostly vegetarian for many years when I started lifting weights several years ago. I wasn't putting on muscle either and felt some pain with lifting - as if my connective tissues and ligaments weren't building up. I figured out I was getting maybe 20 grams of protein on a good day, not enough to build back what I was tearing down. I increased my intake by drinking a protein smoothie within a half hour of working out, when the body really needs the protein to start rebuilding the muscle tissue. I made my own smoothies with 30 grams of soy protein powder and tons of antioxidants via blueberries, orange juice, green tea, etc. Huge difference! Soreness gone, muscles built up, the muscles amped up my metabolic rate so the fat melted off. Plus my skin and hair looked better. Added benefit to soy protein - it may have some estrogen boosting effects for the bustline.

My take. I'm not a pro, tho, and this doesn't qualify as medical advice by any means.

[karategrrl]

I don't know about you guys but it doesn't make me want to buy lingerie more when I'm trying it on while looking at the ad of the practically naked model busting out of the top with hip bones jutting out of the bottom and a seductive smoky-eyed look on her face. I just makes me say "i give up". They should get a clue!

I get ya. I know some women like looking through the catalog, but I don't. It discourages me. I used to get it (warning--if you order anything from them, they then bombard you with their damn catalogs). I actually requested to be removed from their list b/c I was tired of getting USED catalogs that discouraged me. (*USED: With creased pages, fingerprints, possible DNA--I suspect from postal workers. Ew and no thank you.)

There was one model in VS who was very small-chested. I tore out a couple of her pics and still have them. but her pics were like one or two out of the whole catalog.)

Please feel free to email me privately if you want some workout/nutrition advice. I am not a trainer (though I think strongirl is??) but hubby and I have both been into the fitness/muscle thing for years and we're friendly with lots of trainers too, so though I'm not a "professional" I'm open to offering advice.

Oh, a couple of really good books I like are Sculpting Her Body Perfect by Brad Schoenfeld and The Truth by Frank Sepe (though the latter is more technical). You might also checkout the "Dummies" books for more info on nutrition and exercise. One thing I like is that all of these include photos of real-looking, normally fit people, not just bodybuilders and "enhanced" fitness models.

Good luck!!!!!!! I really admire your dedication to your health and body. You know we'll all support you here!

[buttercups]

Awww thanks Karategrrl- between you and Spot-on and Strongirl I feel like I have my own team of personal trainers. I should probably take this into the working out thread, but its about muscle cleavage- so I'm still assuming it's relevant haha! Truth be told I don't eat a lot of protein, I eat a lot of fruits and veggies (mostly carrots and broccoli, not legumes or beans) and I'm not too crazy about meats. The best source of protein I get is probably from Greek yogurt- which I eat daily. Any other suggestions?

Also, I started lifting about 2-3 lb weights 2 months ago. I've increased this to 5 lbs and I can do some exercises with 10, but not quite all of them from my work-out dvds with 10 yet. I think what I really need is 7-8 lbs weights right now because 5 has become too easy and 10 is sometimes too much. I do have the start of some muscle mass on my arms, but no where near what I would call definition- which is what I'm really looking for here. I guess I have to remember that I'm pretty much starting with nothing, since I've only been used to running and never lifted weights before. But again, any suggestions would be most appreciated!

That's really interesting too what you said about the models, there are a lot of models that don't need to fit any strict criteria that I forget about. I guess I was more referring to the Victoria's Secret type. Personally seeing all those hot babes in VS makes me NOT want to buy their products because I realize that I will never look like that in any of their clothes (not that I can fit in their bras to save my life anyways). If they included different types of women, I'd probably want to buy their underwear more cause I would think that it can look good on more types of people, so why not me? I don't know about you guys but it doesn't make me want to buy lingerie more when I'm trying it on while looking at the ad of the practically naked model busting out of the top with hip bones jutting out of the bottom and a seductive smoky-eyed look on her face. I just makes me say "i give up". They should get a clue!

[karategrrl]

And I'm working on my muscle cleavage every day- I can do 3 push-ups right now hahaha, pathetic but I will get there!

Way to go buttercups! Soon we will have to change your name to hottiecups, musclecups, firmcups or something. (I do like buttercups, though. )

I'd love to wow my bf by becoming all hot and buff, but that will take time of course and even though I've only been lifting weights for about 2 months I just don't see much progress.

Dont' forget--it's not just about you being good enough for him, it's about HIM being good enough for YOU, baby. There's my mini-lecture. Dont' forget it. And I'm wondering why you haven't been seeing the results you want...are you lifting enough weight? Are you eating enough protein? Hard to tell via our virtual connection. I wish I knew what to tell ya. Of course, I hope it's not that you look awesome already but you just can't see it. I bet you look HOTTTT!

There shouldn't be any size requirement to be a model- whether you're a size 0 or a size 1000! And it's also so true what she said about how the media classifies "curvy". "Curvy" = women my size + ginormous breast implants. That is not promoting a healthy body image for curvy or skinny women! Now THAT is what is unnatural, not being small or large. I know I just repeated what everyone else has said, but this is something that makes me so angry so I had to do my own personal rant. I wish people would actually accept all forms of beauty instead of just talking about it and then photoshopping everyone.

I totally agree on this all, but I do have to differ a bit with the modeling thing. When we think of models, we usually are referring to fashion models. Yes, there are height requirements (5'8'' for women, at least in the USA). If you are a "fit" model (that is, they use your body as a "manikin" to fit the sample of the clothing on when they are designing it) then yes, you have to be a certain size. But "commercial" models (the "real-people" folks you see a lot of in print magazine ads, TV commercials, etc.) have no size requirements. And I know...I did a short stint as a model in New York. At 5'6'' I could not do fashion, but I did commercial print. And I can tell you that I saw all types, colors and sizes on the auditions I'd go on. It truly had nothing to do with how thin or "pretty" you were--it was about if you had the look the client felt best spoke to their target audience. (One male model I knew totally worked the "nerd" look and did lots of ads for computer/tech companies.) So while it's true that you don't usually see a large, "curvy" woman strutting down the high-fashion runway, the modeling world, as a whole, is actually more diverse than most of us know. It's just that the Victoria's Secret-sized models get the most sexual attention in popluar media, I think. You don't hear much about the "mom" types in the chocolate-chip cookie ads, though they may land as many jobs as the swimsuit types.

[KeraBear]

One thing I did love about that blog was what she said about skinny women. I happen to be one of the naturally scrawny types (skinny but not necessarily as in-shape as I'd like to be) and I've always felt so bad about my body because of the attack on skinny and the "real women have curves" movement. I've never put down curvy women, so I didn't understand why they were putting me down.

Yeah, I am sort of the same way... I guess I can understand the reason for the "Real Woman Have Curves" movement, because there is so much pressure to be skinny, which is unfortunate. But it ultimately puts down a whole nother part of the woman population and that is way not cool.

Funny story... when I was a freshman, a friend of mine told me that if I put on weight than I would get some boobs, so I tried to pig out on junk food whenever I could. It didn't work. In fact, I ended up getting sick!!!