[snafooey]

Erinjane, I see what you're saying, but I refrained from posting until I finally reached the boiling point. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I will admit that my own thoughts on porn and sex work reside somewhere in the grey zone. . .but I get a little worried when words like "morality" get thrown about so casually in a thread like this one.

Btw, here are the links I was mentioning before about that group of foreign sex workers and their attitude toward what they perceived as a largely Western misunderstanding of their situation:

The Foreign Fuck

The Foreign Fuck Part II (scroll down)

Empower Foundation

My apologies if I'm repeating links that have already been posted (or are too similar to links that have already been posted). Obviously they are not the last word on feminism and sex work, but they gave me some food for thought. Sasha is a local sex columnist and sex worker and I think she has a lot of interesting things to say in general.

ETA: When I said below that this read has just become a repetition of every other discussion of this topic, I did not mean to imply that I think that no valid points are being made, just that we seem to be going in circles rather than moving forward.

Thanks, Katie.

[erinjane]

Normally I keep out of these, but I think that pixie is somewhat justified because of few of the replies to her posts here and there have been somewhat hostile. Although I think that's been happening here and there on the board. Everybody breath. But I think that for the most part this discussion is going really well, despite passionate feelings and i really appreciate that.

[katiebelle2882]

all i am going to say is (and i know many other busties agree)..... Amen Snafooey, Amen.


I too long for the old days when you could debate people without someone attacking you for disagreeing or responding in an extremely condescending way.

i love how we all have different opinions on stuff and have learned some great stuff from many busties, not to mention just seeing different arguing styles which i think is a great great thing. i think challenging eachother (and getting an intelligent well thought out response to that challenge) is part of what (did) make bust so great.

[snafooey]

Great discussion? It's "debates" like this thread that have made people - including dozens of former busties with whom I am still in touch - abandon this site en masse. The level of feminist discourse these days is appalling - and not responding to challenges put your way because you feel personally insulted is a huge copout.

I think all these issues are tied together. Why is it that the people - and I don't necessarily mean you in particular but the background you describe - who are the most okay with drunk driving or "the war on terror" are often the most likely to be offended (in theory anyway, not always in practise. . .but that's a whole other thread) by pornography, sex work, abortion and all those other nasty feminist issues? It's definitely worth discussing. I'm sorry you don't seem to think so.

Just for the record, I have read many of the posts in this thread - but after awhile it became clear that it had just become a repetition of every other single discussion we've had on this topic for as long as I've been here. Except that I know for a fact that a lot of busties (former and current) are refraining from posting how they feel b/c they don't really see the point anymore.

I'm extremely grateful to have had Bust in my life - I hang out regularly with people that I met online, I've met at least a couple of dozen busties IRL and I even stayed with a bustie that I had never met in person when I went on vacation. But it's not just whining about the good old days when I say that this site just ain't what it used to be.

[pixiedust]

Well...I guess I see debate as expressing ideas and discussing them.Picking apart posts from all over the board, not reading the entire discussion going on and challenging everything you possibly can...feels a lot like flaming. I can handle people disagreeing with me, But sometimes it is best to agree to disagree. Thank you for at least not resorting to calling names. But I am going to Bow out of this "debate" and let this thread get back to the people who were having a great a discussion.

[snafooey]

So is everyone who challenges something someone else has said flaming them? Whatever happened to debate? This thread is nothing compared to the kinds of discussions that surrounded me growing up - we disagreed on many things but that didn't keep us from talking about them.

My issue was with the sentence:

Who am I to decide that everyone must live up to my morals?

[italics added]

People can have differences of opinion - my problem is the tone of condescension involved when discussing people who have possiblly made different choices - moral and otherwise - than we might have. You might not personally believe in abortion but someone who does is not failing to live "up" to anything.

Just because you grew up around a particular mindset doesn't automatically make it something you have to accept b/c, well, that's just the way it is. I have grown up around people who hold views that I find problematic - I don't say, "Well, it's just how I was raised" - I acknowledge that, yeah, it's part of my background, but it's still something I have to examine and unpack (as the lingo goes). Why was drunk driving common practise in your background but abortion was frowned upon? Those are the kinds of questions I am asking. I'm genuinely curious.

[pixiedust]

I'm going to try to keep this short. I'm tired of being flamed. Yes, I have driven drunk. It's not something I am particularly proud of, but I was young once..and in my part of the country, in the times I was a teenager, young adult, it was pretty common. My mistake to forget others do not have the same background. Likewise, I was brought up that abortion was against God, so to me, immoral. But I have lived with Holy Rollers and peopel who push their religion down your throats my whole life. I don't operate that way. i fyou want to be a christian great. if you don't want to be, that has nothing to do with me and I think everyone has the right to make the choice of what thier morals are. I struggled with the abortion issue a long time. Some people I really love have had them. I don't love them any less. But I know *I* could not do it. I've decided I can support the Right of choice without supporting something I don't personally believe in.

[snafooey]

Fair enough - it really wasn't clear to me from the way you originally phrased yourself.

Incidentally, why is abortion "morally wrong" but drunk driving* is something that, you know, everyone does once in awhile but just doesn't get caught? What is your definition of morality?

Sorry, I'm a bit a defensive - I'm aware that abortion is not a black and white issue, but well, it's funny - for a long time I was convinced that pro-lifers were the immoral ones so it's always interesting for me to hear the opposite perspective. I'm just sick of the whole "Well, I would never ever have one b/c they're immoral, but don't get me wrong, I would never ever judge someone for doing something immoral like that" attitude.

As for porn, I haven't read through all the posts yet (I find the new lounge format difficult on the eyes), but I think we need to look at the difference between being pro-woman and anti-sex. I realize that independent, feminist sex workers are often in a privileged position, but I also think we need to remove the stigma that sex work is, like, the absolute worst thing a woman can do with her body. As for morality, there is nothing wrong with, say, people - male or female - who want to have sex on screen or the people who want to watch them on screen - the issue for me is working conditions of sex workers (and what choice they had in the matter of becoming sex workers) as well as the types of porn/imagery that are so prevalent in our culture.

There was a column in my local alt-weekly about sex-workers from India (? - I'd have to check) who formed an organization in order to combat what they felt were paternalistic Western attitudes to what they did - their point was that even when people tried to get women out of prostitution by buying them materials to make clothing, etc., a lot of the women went back. Why? Because ultimately sex work was more satisfying and less demoralizing than factory work. So, in that sense, we really need to look at the bigger capitalist picture. The fucked-upness we associate with the porn and sex industry is the result of commodification of women's bodies in general more than the fact that there is anything inherently wrong with sex work in and of itself. That is to say, it would not be my ideal job. . .but I can think of a lot of jobs that would not be what I wanted to do for a living either.

Does this mean I'm picking up a video camera and making it my mission to create feminist porn? No, b/c i)it's not my top priority as a feminist and ii) I'm fully willing to admit that I'm socialized to the point where I would not feel entirely comfortable in that realm. I do think we have to look at the porn and sex work as they stand in our culture as a symptom of the overall problem rather than the roots of it. If we lived in a completely egalitarian world and and porn and sex work still existed as safe, protected, well-compensated options, would you still be against working in the sex industry just on principle?

*See Celebrity Gossip

[pixiedust]

Snafooey...I said it was like "the people who stumble in here and think...." I was meaning their thinking that we should be these things, not my own. I'm sorry you misunderstood.

[snafooey]

It's just like the peopel who stumble in here and think that because we are feminists we should blindly support all womens issues, be femnazi's, and man haters. Am I less of a feminist because I am married, have children, and cook?

No, but frankly using the expression "feminazi" does make you less of a feminist, IMHO. Now I realize that you don't think we're "feminazis" but the use of that expression at all (and the implication that we're not but, well, feminazis do exist) - well, I don't even know what to say that I haven't already covered in the past already. Not only because you've seemed to have absorbed the anti-feminist rhetoric that states that "radical feminists" hate men (I've known dozens of feminists over the years and I'm still waiting to meet that mythic creature), but because conflating feminism with Nazism even as a joke is deeply, deeply insulting. . .especially when you consider that the Nazis were pretty much against everything that feminism represents. It's one thing when people who don't consider themselves feminists use that expression, but when feminists do? Yikes.

[pixiedust]

Right on Maddy! There will always be exceptions to any standard, especially when talking abotu feminists, because they are exceptional women. I agree with you that there are far more people out there involved in the sex industry because they feel it's the only way to get by o rthat they have nothing better to offer. those people make me sad.

[greenbean]

Maddy, so sorry if you thought I was calling you a puritan, I wasnt. I meant the vibe I was getting from some posts (not just yours) seemed to be putting down mens' urges which seems puritan to me.
And sorry your friend has to deal with a-holes. Luckly, men like that are few and far between where I work and on the rare occasion I do feel like I'm being treated like a piece of meat, I will give them a hard time.

Also, if this thread is gonna be strictly about the illegal side of the sex industry, so be it. I know it exsists and I think its terribly sad. I dont see it as a feminist issue though, because we are talking about boys too. I see "porn and feminism" a different issue, cuz its more about female beauty standards and that sort of thing, where as a discussion about the international sex trade has nothing to do with looks, and everything to do with abuse and kidnapping and terror. Different ball of wax I think.

Its hard to come up with a solution for it, especially when its an international problem, not just local. San Francisco is making strides in its protection of prostitutes, like trying to convince them to report crimes commited on them without fear of being arrested themselves. Its a step anyway.

[maddy29]

greenbean- im not sure where you got the idea that i think all guys are "nasty" or that men masturbating is "nasty." I don't think that. thanks for calling me a puritan though, i never hear that enough.

The waitress comment was just from what my friend the waitress told me. She had a lot of businessmen types, and they'd treat her liike she was this total airhead, flirt and stuff, but be mean at the time. It was just really icky and she hated it. They were more of the attitude that they kinda owned a part of her while they were there eating, it was weird. that's all... i mean half the time "Flirting" is really just being friendly anyways.... (those men were kinda like this awful lawyer you describe-just soo entitled and sure that you must be a moron-that's how people treated my friend, like, all the time)

girlbomb-fab post. i can't remember if i already posted this, or if i just thought about posting it. but yeah, it's a TOTALLY different thing to talk about the maybe 1% of sex workers that are "like us" and are doing it because they truly like it and have other options, etc.

Maybe 1% is subversive, consensual adults just having fun. And that's fine. I really don't care how anyone gets off, as long as it's not hurting anyone else.

But it seems that when we talk about the sex industry, people get really defensive- because they feel they are being included in it. Or, because they feel like "hey, I do sex work type stuff, but it's all good and cool for me." Ok, that's great. I'm glad to see that there are some women out there who are just having fun and are safe, and it's not destroying them or eating their souls or anything.

But that's not the vast majority. so why are we spending so much time talking about the 1%? Especially because the rich businessmen who go to thailand to fuck little girls and boys-they aren't going to have any interest in watching your women-friendly feminist porn.

Like someone said-this isn't really about sex, or sexuality, it's about power. It's about patriarchy, and sexism. I think it's also about repression/suppression, and seeing sex as a dirty thing or a sin. i think that people's desires get more and more extreme and weird, when they aren't allowed to have any kind of sexual feelings or releases. (someone else can probably say this much prettier than me)

Personally, I'm not really into watching porn. Every now and then I'll watch something for a few minutes, but usually it's just such a short-lived thing, because i usually just end up laughing. To me, it feels like a cheap thrill.

I"ve been to a male strip club which to me was just weird and sad seeming. i mean, my friends had a great time, but I was really uncomfortable with it. Downstairs was the saddest female strip club (well i've only seen the one) but the girls looked all whacked out on drugs and it was just pathetic. Mostly, it's just not interesting to me.

la la la, ramble ramble ramble.

[knorl05]

pixie: i think thats the key. to live according to our own morals, but not to impose them on others. what i feel i need to do is stand up for what i believe in by living my own life according to those beliefs. we all have the right to choose what we feel is best for our circumstances. if people want help, by all means, i'll try to offer it. but i cannot be ignorant to think that just because someone doesnt agree with my approach to life means that they need help or that they need to adopt a new philosophy of living.

[pixiedust]

I honestly don't think that was what he was saying, even though I can't believe I am actually defending him. *waves hands in front of eyes* But I think I see what he's saying.

I think we get into this idealist thought of what a feminist should be and it becomes just as stereotypical and negative as any other group we could belong to. It's just like the peopel who stumble in here and think that because we are feminists we should blindly support all womens issues, be femnazi's, and man haters. Am I less of a feminist because I am married, have children, and cook? Does that make me a June Cleaver wanna be?
I've decided I can support womens rights including abortion, even though for myself, I find it morally wrong. Who am I to decide that everyone must live up to my morals? Morally, I could never be part of the sex industry, but if someone really wants to be there and it is not just the pressure of being the only way to support oneself. I can accept and respect that.

[greenbean]

Wait, nohope...what? Are you saying that whether we like it or not all women are whores anyway? unless we dress like a butch or a tomboy? Are you saying feminism cannot exsist until all women abandon 'feminity'? (and by the way, I do dress like a boy most all of the time, but it doesnt diminish my sex appeal, so I guess I'm doomed, huh?)

[pixiedust]

Ok..I went to bed thinking about teh "traditional marriage " talk and the definition someone gave yesterday. I know I've read a ton of romance novels, which has probably tainted my perseption of things in histoical times because I mostly read hisorical romances, but it seems to me that even in say 18th centuray England, most women of teh upper and lower classes had some say, or right to refuse a husband. it was teh middle class and impoverished nobility that really seemed to sell thier daughters to the highest bidding. And my thought on that is that it isn't legalized prostitution so much as human trafficing and slavery.

[zahia1996]

During (yet another) sleepless night, I decided to try and find out for myself what exactly the impact of women entering the production end of the industry is. After several hours of diligent searching, I wasn't able to come up with any concrete numbers regarding the number of women directing an/or producing porn, but I did find a number of interesting articles. Its hard to find a very objective viewpoint out there, but here are some links to articles that I found pretty interesting, that represent a variety of opinions. Thought some of you might like to check them out.
http://www.counterpunch.org/sun01312005.html ("Revisitng the Obscenity Debate")
http://www.counterpunch.org/hartley02022005.html (Nina Hartley's reply to the previous artice)
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn.../context/cover/ (re: women seeking labioplasty)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=209150 (Women Driving Growth of Porn Catering to Women)
http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/col...0392/index.html (Using condoms in porn)
http://www.eros-london.com/articles/2003-0...andida_royalle/ (interview with Candida Royalle)
http://www.goodforher.com/press/xfilms.html (First Annual Feminist Porn Awards)
http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/usa_2003/mercury-030908.html (Ladies who like it...porn loses its stigma)
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/23/technolo...p;ex=1154404800
(Wall Street and the sex industry)
http://www.burningangel.com/archives/inter...ky_goldberg.php (Burning Angel interview with Becky Goldberg)
http://www.bridgemagazine.org/online/featu...hive/000113.php (Critique on Jenna jameson/Belladonna)
http://www.lukeisback.com/essays/essays/degradation.htm (Porn & Degradation)
http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2...porn/index.html ("Adventures in the Skin Trade)
http://www.english.unimelb.edu.au/antithes...7_Hamilton.html ("Bondage and Bikinis")
http://www.swop-usa.org/ (sex workers outreach program)
http://www.beverlylahayeinstitute.org/arti...egoryid=reports (Legalizing Prostitution at the U.N.)
http://www.backwash.com/content.php?jouid=8604 (A Brief History of Prostitution in America)

I know this list is pretty heavy on porn topics, but I was trying as best as I could to find things related to the legal sex industry in the U.S., which is why I didn't really include any links about sex trafficking.

[battygurl]

Yeah, nohope I think you're right about most people operating out of fear that they'll end up on the streets. I think that's why we treat them like shit so much of the time. We don't want to admit that they're people just like us, we have to distance ourselves from them in order to not see how easily we could end up like them.

And it frustrates me too, when people only acknowledge narrow and rigid boundaries of masculinity and femininity. It pisses me off though, that traits that are thought of as traditionally feminine are valued so low.

[pepper]

oh, nohope. speaking true. nice one.