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> What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
lilacwine13
post Jan 18 2007, 10:13 PM
Post #1061


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From: greater Minnesota


It might be that people are more open to discussing such stuff as anal sex as they were in the past too, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's become more commonplace.

A part of me thinks that women have always had expectations foisted on them in regards to what is socially acceptable for them sexually in regards to what sort of experience they should or should not have. In the past, they were expected to remain virgins until marriage (and in some circles they still are) with no knowledge or desire of sex; now they're expected to act like porn stars, yet still have no real desire of their own. Instead, they are expected to want to do what the mainstream culture says they want to do, whether it be making out with other girls or looking like Barbie. If that is what turns you on, it's okay, but I think there's a majority out there who don't get turned on by that. What we really need is for people to realize that neither extreme is good and everyone is different. Unfortunately, I don't see anything like this occurring in mainstream culture anytime soon.


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All I know is that I don't know nothing.--Op Ivy
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spazmatazz
post Jan 18 2007, 08:52 PM
Post #1062


BUSTie
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From: minneapolis


wombat, i think that's what's bugging me...the idea of "supposed to". i've got no qualms about anyone doing what feels good...at all. and yes, by all means, explore! learn new things! I certainly hope i didn't come off as being distrespectful or judgemental of anyone.

But, yeah...the idea of "supposed to" just doesn't sit right with me.
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wombat
post Jan 18 2007, 08:41 PM
Post #1063


Dragon Velocity
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From: Rattland


This is why I hate pople!! ha ha ha


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wombat
post Jan 18 2007, 07:23 PM
Post #1064


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From: Rattland


I'm mildly annoyed by "trends" for what a woman is "supposed to" do with her sexuality, but I wouldn't describe it as an outrage, necessarily.

I think what we're trying for is to accept the whole spectrum of women's sexuality as defined by each individual.

That can be difficult: as other pople get involved, it becomes an issue of social negotiation and people take extreme positions one way or another.

For me, anything that isn't the old: sex only for reproduction, reproduction always the result from sex

has got to be progress.

If I'm making any sense. smile.gif


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spazmatazz
post Jan 18 2007, 07:09 PM
Post #1065


BUSTie
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From: minneapolis


i was just thinking about the whole "women's sexuality trends" today and was so glad to find a discussion of it here. a friend of mine and i were discussing how what's considered the "norm" sexually has changed so much since we started having sex.

i remember a time when anal sex was something only "freaks" did...if you'll please excuse the term; admittedly at the time (15) that's how we felt about it. now, if i don't want to have anal i'm some kind of frigid prude. the same is true if i don't want to get drunk and make out with my best gal pal simply to entertain drunken men. the other day my 20 year old niece was telling me she's a LUG. I didn't even know what she meant...turns out it means "lesbian until graduation". i'm struggling with whether i'm proud of her for being open about sexuality or disappointed in her for using lesbianism as a tool for seducing men. am i even making sense here?

don't get me wrong...at 32 i'm more than comfortable with the boundaries i've set for myself, and don't let myself get bullied or coerced to go beyond them. i just think we've come a long way from when a girl who gave head was something special. anyone else have thoughts on this?
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ginger_kitty
post Jan 12 2007, 02:37 PM
Post #1066


Hardcore BUSTie
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That sucks!!! We'll see what happens....


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-We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different.

-What we think, we become.
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nickclick
post Jan 9 2007, 08:12 AM
Post #1067


Hardcore BUSTie
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Posts: 2,134
From: jersey


"a lack of evidence to support the charges "

????????????????????????????

drop $9.99 plus shipping and handling! there's your evidence! why'd ya even need to search his private jet? why does the a-hole have a private jet?!?!?!?!?!?!?! so he can jet-set between slumber parties more easily????
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roseviolet
post Jan 5 2007, 10:27 PM
Post #1068


Pacifism kicks ass!
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Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!
Most charges against Girls Gone Wild producer dropped

Here's hoping the federal charges stick.
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wombat
post Dec 24 2006, 07:48 PM
Post #1069


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well girltrouble -- you are one of my favorite busties too!

I gotta take a break on the "norm trends in talking about sex and whether they are good or bad" discussion for right now, though I'd love to return to it.

I'm also setting up web sites, and CHRISTMAS.

Leaving no energy for academic/political/sex pickings right now or else my head will asplode!!


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girltrouble
post Dec 22 2006, 04:12 PM
Post #1070


new highs in personal lows daily!
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oh, please don't get me wrong, wombat, you're probably my favorite bustie right now. i love to be challenged, and debated, and told i am wrong, wrong, wrong. don't stop doing it. just know i will occasionally whine about it. wink.gif i have the utmost respect for you. your questioning makes me think, and that is great. i dig on it. and i know your heart was in the right place. i love talking about gender, and can talk about it endlessly (right now, i am deep into a debate on big queer blog about the use/uselessness of gender neutral pronouns), i just wanna stay on topic. it (and you) have made question my experiences. which has been a long time coming.


as for your othr points. trendyness in something like this is...ick. but that is the way ideas spread. i absolutely agree there needs to be room for everybody, but disliking a new understanding of something, or a new idea is like killing the messenger. i understand the way backlash works, but in many cases, the initial reasons for a particular "movement" or idea is valid.

here's an eg: the phrase "politically correct", or the thinking behind it, was really something that started in berkley. there was the whole racist thing of "ebonics" and discussion about that, but some of the students and profs were interested in having a new classical cannon of literature that wasn't all dead white men. they wanted to be more inclusive, and respectful of different cultures, peoples and povs. republicans, spurred on by a threat to their privilage turned a phrase that meant adding to the richness of our cultural sign posts, and deepening our understanding of the human condition, turned the phase's meaning on it's head, changing it to mean something that is oppressive. the antithesis of what it originally meant.

that said, sex positivity has been around since the 80's and from what i remember reading of authors like suzie bright et.al, was that it was intended to do many of those things; to give women tools to be less relationship-dependent, to explore their sexuality in earnest. remember, the 80's was suffering from a sexual backlash from the excess of 60's free love, the 70's disco sexual inferno, and it was the start of aids. there was a lot to be fearful about. sex pos was a sorely needed reaction to all of that "just say no" rubbish.

and i don't mind being a poly bdsm hipster. it works for me. lol

i'll shut up now.


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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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wombat
post Dec 22 2006, 01:32 PM
Post #1071


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Nothing against you, girltrouble, well, as I woulda posted last night, if I hadn't already posted something so dam' long :-) -- You know what is best for you, and I am glad you found something that works for you.

I know I shouldn't make assumptions about your life, and so I appreciate knowing about it. It's hard to know about a lot of details unless they're posted.

My suggesting the phone banks was not to imply you "needed" a way out -- I do wonder about medical bills, dental bills and retirement, though. The fact that it is illegal income poses certain problems, so, you would need a side "legit" job at least, so you can bank your money without the feds coming to call.

Maybe you work that out through the paintings or something, I don't know.

I think I'm posting not against you as an individual -- definitely not against you as an individual, as you seem likeable and hip and intelligent etc. -- as I am against a certain trend of dogmatic "sex positive" academic feminist theory.

Where once we were all presumed to be lesbians, we are now all presumed to be polyamourous and BDSM hipsters. I wish we could stop having "trends" witth women's sexuality.

I also wish women were not as relationship-dependent, relationship manipulating, group think-y, if you want to be my friend we have to be THE SAME as they/we? seem to me. Why *are* we even constantly debating what people "should" do?


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girltrouble
post Dec 22 2006, 11:58 AM
Post #1072


new highs in personal lows daily!
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thanks for the info, but i really didn't want the conversation to turn to my being transgendered. i transitioned a loooooooooong time ago, did lots of non-profit work, networking and public speaking on panels. it's something i'm very comfortable with, and i think only had a little to do with the topic at hand. which i'm really interested in. my gender stuff, i pretty much figured out.

i went to a very nice, university, but for the field i was pursuing, school didn't equate to good pay. part of the job problem is that in my city the unemployment rate is pretty high. one of my friends went to graduate school twice, and still spent a year unemployed. add to that that i am very artistic in temprament, and as i said, escorting has been very good to me. i've been doing it off and on for years, never had any violence (unless it was me and i was domming), and i've been able to support other things i wanted to do. i was a film reviewer for years, worked for an international film festival, dj'ed and now i am starting a painting career. all things that if i had a regular job i would'nt have been able to do.

i know the urge is to say it's bad, and terrible, but i've known girls who have been able to support themselves while going back to school, make sure their children were housed and fed because they worked.

i know you get sick of what you call "lines of bullshit" i am sick of people who discount what is empirical for 2nd hand stories, and think they know better. sorry. escorting is pretty much the same as any other job to me. and i've actually done it, so i think i know. i've done labor, i've had office jobs, i've worked as a writer, i've worked retail. i've worked on films. my feeling is work is work. some jobs suck more than others for various reasons, but that is all about what suits you. i've tried resturant work, and i can't do it, don't like it, and would never do it again. does that mean that it automatically is evil? obviously not. it's just not for me. same here.

i've had jobs where bosses screamed at the top of their lungs at employees, banking on the fact they couldn't quit. for me i walked into my last job, my supervisor was in tears cos my boss was talking shit, blaming me for stuff that everybody knew was his fault. i didn't have to debate or plan on how to make rent after my last check, i just walked in to his office and gave him my two weeks without missing a beat. like i said. doesn't mean it's evil, it means that my boss was a dicklick. contrary to what you think and your 2nd hand judgements, to me it's meant freedom.

i know, you will throw sex slavery up here, and of course i think that is wrong. i am a big beliver in the bdsm rule of SSC: safe sane and consentual. and that is what i am talking about. a woman can go into this 'field' and be thoughtful, intellegent, and very aware of what she is doing, and how she is doing it. i don't think, and i am not talking about people who are coerced, which, people seem to think is all that is out there.

i know you think somehow i'm being a pollyanna, but i don't think that most women who do this have a horrible experience. i don't think everyone's had my fortune either. i think like maddy pointed out, that it's probably something in the middle.

as sick as you are of hearing your list, i am sick of people who discount what is empirical for 2nd hand stories, and think they know better.


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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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wombat
post Dec 22 2006, 07:30 AM
Post #1073


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girltrouble: I just remembered I worked with a working-class, middle-aged transgender person when I did customer service work for cell phone companies! It's not with the general public (visually) so, you know.So, that's a possibility if you want something "legit" that's kind of what you did before. The pay's like 20k to 30k a year but you get benefits and consistency and something to put on your resume.

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hoosierman78 -yeah, I'm not sure what the deal on these contests is. In a way, it's all about their sexuality, in a way, they are in denial of that -- FEROCIOUS denial, i.e. the people running the contests insist they are not some model agency/pimp org.

I guess it's supposed to be, wouldn't you want to have a lovely traditional family with this ideal woman.

It's supposed to be sweet wife and future momma kind of sexiness.


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hoosierman78
post Dec 21 2006, 04:15 PM
Post #1074


BUSTie
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Posts: 92


Ok, maybe I just don't get it. How does Miss Nevada get 'relieved of her duties' due to some 'racy' photos of her taken while out partying, yet Miss USA gets a second chance for MULTIPLE occurances of underage drinking?

Granted, there are issues on top of issues surrounding the whole world of beauty pagents, but that aside for the moment, how is it worse to kiss a girl and show your boobs than it is to go out and get shitfaced proir to being of legal age to do so? I'm at a loss.
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dusty
post Dec 21 2006, 02:35 PM
Post #1075


Hardcore BUSTie
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No, I think you have brought yourself and your experience to the discussion, Girl. Thank you for that and for being brave.
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wombat
post Dec 21 2006, 02:27 PM
Post #1076


Dragon Velocity
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From: Rattland


Sorry, go HERE:

http://www.gendertalk.com/



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wombat
post Dec 21 2006, 01:20 PM
Post #1077


Dragon Velocity
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From: Rattland


*****
Also I should specify the women I'm talking about are not busties and, IRL, initials AN and EP and GP and I knew them years ago -- Like, 5 or 10. They were so ferociously defensive about their money and their sex life and very oversenstive in general that I knew something was up. They were trying to start their own feminist porn enterprise, which is how I met them. I was going to write or do art or design or production or something, but they were not fun. Not at all. Or particularly trustworthy.


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wombat
post Dec 21 2006, 10:10 AM
Post #1078


Dragon Velocity
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From: Rattland


I don't think you hijacked, because you made clear that you were black and transgendered early on, and I wondered if the reason that you had so much experience with the agencies, and loved and defended them, was because they would be one of the few places that would hire you. Sadly.

Being able to survive and stay safe and stay out of the sex worker/homeless etc. life and come out to people is largely a matter of class privilege. There is a woman here named Nancy Nangerone who used to be a male engineer, so had plenty of money stashed away, and probably people still willing to hire her as an engineer since that is a more skilled profession and s/he had several years of experience before transitioning and several years in transition and living as a woman at all times before creating a public profile. What she does now is a radio show called Gender Talk, and she is generous with helpful information, resources and encouragemnt, there are both FTM and MTF trans people on the show and there is a lot of humor and advocacy.

You can download cookies of the archived show if you go to http:wmbr.mit.edu, click on schedule, find "Gender Talk" click on the square. Nancy also has her own website that is probably linked to that, and is a really nice person, you could listen on MITs very capable streaming audio to the live show and call in if you want to!!

***

My own past is, parents who encouraged books and nature and all but ended up living blue-collar lives -- my dad went to MIT but had breakdowns through his life so was not able to have/keep high pressure white collar joba and had stigma after a while. I was very motivated to go to college and graduate school because I didn't want to just work low level jobs or become a housewife, and my test scores were way above my grade level in grade school. I saw school as a way out, almost as a way of rebelling against my parents rather than as living up to expectations, because they felt worn down and discouraged by life and weren't terribly enthused about paying for my schooling.

I got into a cheap pre-law/law program, got good grades but didn't really like it, and dropped out when they made it clear that they were getting divorced as well as getting sicker and really needed the money. Giving me guilt-trips about it.

Worked a few crappy jobs but always looking for the ones that would lead to a path upward.

Did "Women in Blue Collar Trades' CETA program, I liked the feminism and rebellion and what is actually damn good money, yo! And a way to stay healthy and have a family. First time I worked out in my life.

Went to art school later when dad got an inheritance.

Worked in photo labs, then for a very short time cleaned houses while going through training paid for by unemployment to enter graphic arts field.

Worked my way up very successfully -- the problem with blue collar trades, for me, was that you would get sick of physical work by the time you're fifty or so, you have to get up early every day and fall asleep exhausted at night, so no time for my art and books on the side.

Did all kinds of production and design, moving ever upward, and even publishing some articles and having my art and design distributed to the world. then, it became clear that I wouldn't get any higher without a Bachelor's, so I cashed in my transfer credits and work skllls and parlayed my way into getting one. had to suffer living very close to the bone and under constant high stress for years, and got fat and all, but finally got the degree. It is very hard to pay your way in an expensive east coast american city. "You can just get financial aid!" does not begin to cover it. Say that and I will have a strong urge to slap you.

Now I'm competing with wealthier and younger people in a competitive field, more or less successfully, but there is stlll a certain amount of "slavery" involved.

*****

I just get annoyed with the lines of bullshit:
Every woman is a prostitute anyway!
Every sex transaction involves some kind of money anyway!
Every job is just the same as prostitution anyway!

Or, a woman who has a mysterious source of income, talks a lot about her class and how much "power" she has, has a lot of sex with men but finds sex with women comforting, and insists she's NOT a sex-worker! I've known enough women with that profile who were -- one of my friends in high school who was a runaway and a sex worker, etc. to find that profile and claim suspect. Denial. Pretension.

I think sometimes denial and pretension are necessary not to succumb to a deep well of breakdown, but still.

***

When I was talking about soul, I meant that grossing myself out with part of my own sexual and emotional functions would add a level of difficulty to having positive relationships with others, and with myself in terms of creativity. That doesn't have to be true for everyone, I guess.


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girltrouble
post Dec 21 2006, 01:30 AM
Post #1079


new highs in personal lows daily!
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sorry i feel likei unintentionally highjacked a thread that i was enjoying. sorry.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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dusty
post Dec 20 2006, 03:52 PM
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Thanks, Girl. I thought that's what you meant, but I wanted to be sure.
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