[turbojenn]

Ugh, syb, that is so scary!!!! I know what you mean about the "what to do in case of unplanned pregnancy" thing...of course it wouldn't be a disaster if you or I accidentally got pregnant, but its not something I desire in any way. And I work at an adoption agency, for maude's sake...some of us childfree play the "what if" game, and I'm the only one who says I would seriously consider placing the child...and I woulds choose a nice gay couple, for sure.

At the dog park tonight, this pack of boys came in, which is always the wrong answer, as half of them are afraid of dogs, and wouldn't you know, one of them got scared and let a black and tan setter out (which is fast), and I *barely* caught one of the other greyhounds by its fur, and not much else. Fucking kids. My heart was in my throat, and with only a slight edge of BITCH, asked all of them to leave the park, with me opening the gate for them. They never have parental supervision, mostly they don't even wear shoes. The youngest one is probably 4 years old. I do not need to be their babysitter. It was then that I felt the power of my decision not to grace the planet with children.

Stay strong, syb, and check into your bc options!

[sybarite]

Um, hi my name is sybarite and I don't have a dog... Up puppy love!

I had a pregnancy scare this week. For no reason, we are careful, just my body was playing tricks on me. It made me realise how very much I don't want a child, but also how much my position makes it that much harder to 'defend' that decision should I accidentally get pregnant. I mean, I'm in my 30s and in a good relationship; we're engaged for the love of mike.

It makes sense to me to be childfree and I believe for my mister; our lives are full enough. But faced with a potential situation I realised how hard it would be to defend (deep breath) a termination. I may post more about this elsewhere, but I felt trapped and *terrified* when I thought that, for whatever reason, I may have to go through with having a child. (No-one's making me go though anything, but there is my partner to consider; longer story).

I'm just saying the situation brought how much I truly do not want a child home to me. I am careful as I can possibly be but maybe I should look at other measures; I don't want to be in this situation again.

[pollystyrene]

If I go the purebred route for my next dog, I want to do either an Irish Terrier or a Schipperke- those are my favorites!

[turbojenn]

Awwww.....luci, your brother sounds great - and I might actually watch his zombie movie, where I won't watch any of the others out there, because of said rapes, maimings and murders.

Schipperkes are so cute, and saying their name is so fun, it makes them even cuter - Schipperke! Schipperke! Schipperke!

[lucizoe]

Chihuahuas remind me of fuzzy mosquitoes...

I want a Schipperke. One of my puppers is a black spitz and Schipperkes look like mini versions of her...

I miss my dogs...

In other news, vaguely childfree-related but also just feminist, my darling elder brother just got picked up by an actual production company with a budget (!) to write and direct one of his zombie movies (his way of breaking into the business; think like Ed Wood, but lucid and talented). He was telling me about it and said, "And guess what? My main character is a woman and she doesn't get raped, or murdered, or married, or have kids at the end. The movie just ends without any of that crap."

I lurve my brother. He's so smart.

[deschatsrouge]

The Puppy porn made my urterus twitch. I'm having the worst maternal urges right now.
I NEED TO HUG A CHIHUAHUA!!!!

[cloverbee]

hooray for puppies!! I just want to take that little goldie and squeeze the stuffing out of him!!

[doodlebug]

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!! PUPPIES!!!!!!!!!!!

[lucizoe]

Oooooooh...he looks so dignified, sitting in the garden like that. So serious! And that pom is just. Gah. No words adequate to describe.

*coos and gurgles and passes out*

[turbojenn]

luci, clover, frog, I have got your antidote for the annoying people blues! Puppy porn!!

check this out!

Ok, the golden puppy is my FIL's brand new pupper, Jake, who is unbearably cute - he just came home on Saturday.

The pomeranian puppy is my BFF's, her name is Zoey, also 9 weeks old, and also came home on saturday, and is just too adorable for words...she looks more like a stuffed animal, or gerbil, than a dog. The funny thing there is that its actually her big macho BF, who wanted the Pom, she wanted a medium sized mutt....I love that!

[lucizoe]

Argh. You know, usually little kids don't bother me, because I really don't come across too many in my neighborhood. I was in the laundromat today, and already stressed out and post-panic attack and there were two little girls SHRIEKING and SQUEALING at each other...I was ready to beat them myself. I understand needing to bring your children on errands, really. But would it kill you to toss a coloring book or something in your bag to keep them entertained? The laundromat is boring! I felt bad for feeling annoyed, as other city noise doesn't bother me at all. Give me a dump truck and a siren and traffic jam horns any time, but child-sounds send me off.

Blah.

Doesn't help that the students are all back and the first years are so terribly agog at the fact that they're in a city...they travel in packs and block the sidewalks because they must all gape at the new and wondrous. Gosh, I am cranky today!

ha, flyingfrog, Mr.Luci and I go to Tompkins Square most Saturday mornings to dogle. Best dog park evah!! Except when people are literally dangling infants OVER the fence of the big dog section. What the hell, people??? Trying to Darwin your kid out of existence already??

Blah, again.

Puppylust in full force today. Cavalier King Charles spaniel sighting, and a pit bull mix at the coffee truck jumped up and used me as leverage because he wanted to get closer to the source of his treats. So damn cute!

[cloverbee]

oh my gawd I love this thread. You guys (deschats, flyingfrog, turbo) are describing exactly how I feel. I was at the park the other day and this couple gets out of a van w/ five (5) little golden retriever puppies all on leash. they were going for a little walk. it was sooooooooooo cute I was freaking out. sometimes when people ask me if I have any kids I say yes and then show them a pic of little clover. they usually don't get it.

[flyingfrog]

oh deschatsrouge, I get maternal urges for dogs and cats, too! mr. frog and I are those people who walk by the park so we can check out the pets and coo like idiots... the adorablest baby in the world could march past us and we'd be like, move it, brat, you're blocking our view of the spaniels!

and turbo, I think you're right. it's tons easier to be childfree in a big city (I'm in nyc) - I have a wide range of friends here (single, childfree 4 life, childfree for the time being, and those laden down with diapers - and they never want to hang out any more anyway, so I just don't see them). but whenever I'm back in my small hometown, if I ask how so-and-so is doing, or what old-classmate-pal is up to, all I hear is, "oh, she had the baby last winter! that's number two! isn't that WONDERFUL?! isn't that AMAZING?! and what about you?" it creeps me out a bit. and there is a very, very evil little part of me that always wants to shoot back with something obnoxious like "I've been working my ass off on my master's degree, but I'm sure those diapers are REALLY FASCINATING for old-classmate-pal!" eek. so evil. so evil. different choices for different people. I know. I do control myself, I swear.

[turbojenn]

I shop at 8am on Saturday or Sunday mornings, right when the grocery store opens...not necessarily because of kids, as there aren't wild numbers of them in stores here usually, but mostly, because I don't like crowds, and the people who push their carts around the store completely unaware of their surroundings or other people trying to get down the aisle.

I guess I don't feel quite as maligned for not having kids, living in chicago - there are LOTS of people in big cities without kids, so its not such a big deal. Going to visit family in MI, I do feel more conspicuous as a non-breeder, 'cause suburbs are made for families. I'm not sure how I would feel - good or bad, living in a place that was much more child-centric.

[deschatsrouge]

My mom never talks about her pregnancies with any of us but she loves to tell war stories about her deliveries, mostly beacause we were all really big babies (7 -10 lbs). Frankly pushing a parasite out of my cooch scares the hell out of me, so I will never do it. When I get maternal urges I get them for puppies and kittens. I feel like running out to the animal shelter and adopting a wide eyed bouncing baby boy named fido.

Ranty rant rant:

flying frog, I hear you about the kids in the grocery store. I used to go grocery shopping on Saturdays and Sundays but I had to stop, it was just too stressful. I live in an area with a moderate hispanic population and a massive number of Mormons. I can't be in the grocery store with hundreds of sprogs hanging off the grocery cart like drooling devil horned attack monkeys. They are everywhere, and they don't stay near their parents. I almost killed one almost every time I went shopping. I have to shop on friday afternoon so I can avoid the ungodly number of demon spawn diving under the wheels of my shopping cart. They scream, oh gawd do they scream. ususally things like MOMMY I WANT SOME POPSICLES! I am a big fan of duct tape and those child leash thingies, or leaving the little bastards at home. This illustrates the inordinate number of numbskulls using lax parenting methods. When I go grocery shopping I want it to be a relaxing experiance.

I'm so pissed off that I am looked down upon because I hate children and I expect children to be seen and not heard. I hate the fact that I'm a lesser member of society because I am choosing not to have children. People are constantly second guessing my decision. I hate having to be polite to the people treating me like a lesser person and the people second guessing me. I think next time I won't be polite.

[flyingfrog]

geez. my (younger, only) brother's in his twenties and my mom can still recall, in very specific detail, how excrutiatingly sick she was when she was pregnant with him. hell, I still remember how excrutiatingly sick she was - I was six, totally old enough to know what was going on, and I remember thinking: this does not look like something I want to have happen to me. watching your mom hurl/cry/fly off the handle/have to stop working for so many months makes a big impression, even though she kept telling me she hardly felt sick at all during her first pregnancy (me).

now don't get me wrong, the brother's awesome, we're all happy he's here. but when he was little and in obnoxious phases, crayoning on walls or whatever, my mom would sometimes be heard saying "and for THIS I spent four months throwing up?!"

in happier news, I just moved from a neighborhood TEEMING with babies, primarily the spoiled rotten yuppie ones who threw things from their $2,000 strollers while their indulgent/ignorant parents sipped lattes and chuckled, to a quieter hood that seems to have a higher proportion of adults with grown children/senior citizens/childfree 20- and 30-somethings. can I say, it is such bliss to walk to the deli without having to dodge a stroller obstacle course? and to walk down my stoop and not see a gaggle of drool factories lined up outside my door as their mommies chitchat about how good help is so hard to find? I don't think I have had a child throw anything at me in a store in weeks! yay!! doing groceries is fun again!

[moxiegirl]

"she went on and on about the morning sickness and the pain all being worth it. She claimed you forget everything once you see thier faces."

Whatever. Moxette may end up an only child because i had such a shitty pregnancy. I love her, i love being her mother and seeing her grow and develop. I hated being pregnant. I hated labor and delivery. I hated recovery. They were icky at best, and a serious strain on my marriage most of the time. Being parents is great (honest, I swear, for us it really is!), being "almost parents" sucks.

My SIL, who had a horrible first pregnancy, was pregnant with her #2 while I was pregnant with #1. Again, really sick, tired, etc. I asked her if she had "forgotten" the first experience. She said, "yeah, in a moment of feeling sorry for the #1 being an only child, wine and what seemed like a good idea. I'm getting fixed when this one comes out." And, she's about the best damed mom I know.

It will take a whole lot of convincing and rationalizing for me to ever do that again.

[humanist77]

clover, that makes perfect sense, especially with something as generally irreversible as becoming a parent. Good point.

Time to bitch~every freaking morning, starting very early, there are always several small children somewhere outside of my boyfriend's bedroom window-I think they live in the building next door, and they are on the balcony. They are CONSTANTLY screaming and crying. I worry a little sometimes that the parents are hitting them or something because of how much they scream and cry-as if they were being hurt. I have really never heard so much upset noises coming from children on a regular basis. I can't see them though when I look out the window, I think they are just beyond the side of our building. Even with the windows closed, they are loud enough to wake me up. I could get over some moderate child noise, but it is literally every several seconds that one of them lets out a rabid shriek. I'm looking forward to winter so at least they will stay inside..

[doodlebug]

clover, my mom still swears you forget all the pain and suffering. I said, yeah, just like dissociation is a response to trauma.

Edit...er, I mean, "ginger, my mom still swears...." etc. Heh.

Edit again....clover (this time!), I agree. I think we spend a lot of energy justifying many of our choices. I know there are bad relationships I've done this with, when I'm not yet ready to end those relationships! I've spent a lot of time trying to justify staying in a job that makes me miserable, too, and it's hard to admit that I'm still there mainly because it pays the rent. But especially with kids....it's not like you can take back that choice, or ever really admit to making a mistake. I think I may have even posted on this before. Since parenthood becomes your primary function in the world (ESPECIALLY if you are a mother), and you are stuck with it for 18 years at a minimum, you have to validate the choice.

People do this with religion, too, I think. Religion is there to explain what happens in the world, and if there seems to be no explanation, then religious people validate it by saying it's god's will and god's will is unknowable. They HAVE to validate their problems and losses somehow because they cling to religion as the answer to every question.

(But then, I think many people genuinely love being parents, even when it gets rough going. After all, everything we do has rough patches - relationships, jobs, even hobbies!)

[cloverbee]

that reminds me, ginger, of this book I'm reading called Influence, the psychology of persuasion. in the book it states that people strive to remain consistent in their choices and decisions and I think that this concept applies to parenting. when people become pregnant and are expecting a baby, whether or not they realize it, they have mad a choice-to have a baby. now in order to remain consistent w/ that choice, they convince themelves that it is the right thing to do and that they are happy about it. otherwise, why did they make the decision? so these people that we see who go on and on about how freaking happy they are about their babies and blah blah blah basically are trying to stay mentally consistent otherwise they would have to deal w/ the agony of mental conflictidness (ha) and would suffer eternally. my theory. someone please contradict me, this is fun.