[turbojenn]

We don't get trick or treaters in our building either. That's the downside of city/condo living - there's not much door-knocking going on.

polly, I think I would have lost it at that baby shower too - probably what would've gotten me was the grabbing of clothing...I do not want sticky fingers anywhere near my clothing, and worse, you were probably dressed nicely for the occasion too. I don't want dogs on my furniture either, so its the same for kids and pets, with me.

My friends living in Ireland say the same thing about child behavior, and they say that there are often kids at the pubs with their families, but you never hear a peep out of 'em...unless they're american. It definitely feels like a cultural thing...but its a much more family-oriented way of life there too - with children more often living close to parents, with grandparents helping more with child-rearing, and with greater time off for vacations and such, I just feel like its an overall saner life, and that parents have more time to *be* parents there. I'd love to move overseas and get a different perspective...its one of my childfree fantasies.

[pollystyrene]

That is kind of sad, treehugger, since Halloween is one of the few times I enjoy children.

My friends and I had this big conversation about remaining childfree yesterday. We're all in agreement that we mostly like the kids we're related to, but partially only because they're related to us. It was so nice to have a childfree day yesterday, especially since I had another freakin' baby shower on Saturday. This one was more casual than the one last weekend, so there were husbands and children there. After awhile it was just too much. I don't mind the twin daughters of my BGP, but there were some other people there with kids who I don't know as well and they were really getting on my nerves.

I was sort of trapped in a corner with the kids because I wanted to sit next to my BGP (because other than Le Boy, I didn't know or like anyone else there.) and this little kid, who's just learning to pull himself up, kept using my pants leg to do so. The father just sat there, "oh he's so cute!" Bite. Me. Stop your kid from groping my legs or I might *accidentally* have a leg spasm and kick him. He was just one of those little kids who seems to have a layer of slime on them and i didn't want him touching me. Ick.

At one point, the 2 or 3-year old son of these people I didn't know decided to play under the pool table. The kid stood up underneath and bonked his head hard on the table. He started screaming- I felt bad for him because it looked like he banged it really hard (no cut or blood or anything) and I know how much that hurts, but the kid had the most annoying wail and the father of course brought him back to the area where we all were sitting rather than take him off somewhere else, so I had to sit and listen to this wailing child for the next few minutes. Ugh.

I don't think I know anyone else who's pregnant, so I think I'm safe for awhile. Oh, wait, Le Boy's other cousin is pregnant, but this is her second and she lives in North Carolina, so I think I'm safe from having to go to another shower.

My childfree friends and I also talked about how irritating it is when people let their kids annoy the shit out of you and you're the bad one if you say something to them or, worse yet, the kids. So aggravating. They've been to Europe and talked about how much better the culture is- it's not as kid centered and kids actually know how to behave in public. People don't let them run around or scream uncontrollably.

[treehugger]

Yeah, I've never understood the idea of "childfree = selfish". I mean, I almost think it's a holdover from WWII where people were basically told they had to replace the lives lost; therefore bringing about the baby boom. At least that's my memory of what caused the boom. Or maybe it was just rampant horniness; who knows?

Now that we have the option of not overwhelming our already strained resources, it's selfish to not make an effort? I don't get it.

An aside, too. Something happened to me (or rather, I found out something) that reminded me of a conversation we had in this thread a few weeks back about child-free housing developments. I ran into the woman who sort of arranges social events and I asked her about whether we have a trick-or-treating thing on Halloween for the kids in the building. I found out there are NONE in the building. When I responded incredulously, she said, "well, there is ONE person who's technically not an adult, but he's a junior in high school"

My condo building consists of 93 units; a fairly large building. There was nothing in the condo documents/rules about children. Best I can figure is there's no playground and not much in the area to attract families. So while my building doesn't out and out discriminate, there's no kids here. No wonder it's so quiet!!!

And our building is security locked...so no trick-or-treaters from other places in the neighborhood either.

So I guess I don't have to buy any Halloween candy. <sob>

[cloverbee]

and i agree

[lucizoe]

Sorry, cloverbee. I guess I should have picked a different way to describe what I meant to say; there's definitely a difference between shopping at wal-mart out of necessity and buying loads of unnecessary plastic kid-crap there just because it's cheap and convenient, which is clearly indicative of a larger social problem too (depending on things and tv to entertain your kids instead of teaching them to make their own fun using their imaginations). In trying to make a point that having more kids than is healthy for the planet is actually MORE selfish, long-term, than choosing to remain kid-free, I offended you, and I'm really sorry about that.

I stand by everything else, though

[cloverbee]

I don't think it's safe to lump all people who shop at wal-mart into the same category. I shop at wal-mart bi-monthly and though I'm not proud of it, it's how I get by on my measly income. I wouldn't make it if I didn't. They have cheap shit and I think that it's part of the bigger picture in that it's sad that people like me really have no choice. It's indicative of the larger problem called poverty. In other words, shopping at wal-mart is a problem but it's only a symptom of the larger problem. I would loooooove to be able to go out and afford laundry detergent at a local store or a natural food chain or anywhere else but I can't and I know a LOT of people who can't. So before we all get lumped together, just thought I would make that slight clarification. Although I do make a concious effort to recycle. and I do cringe when I walk into wal-mart each and every time.

[kelkello]

Here here, Luci!

[doodlebug]

I second lucizoe's entire post.

[katiebelle2882]

my favorites are:

My body was created for this purpose.

Babies are future dish washers!

Babies are also a blessing to other people. They sure love to hold and cuddle mine. Since my siblings have stopped at two children per family, I want to supply them for my parents and everyone else's pleasure.


personally, i think every single one of her reasons are selfish and self serving. more people to wash dishes for her, more kudos from her parents to her bc she cant stop breeding. and in terms of her body being made for it, well, shes just a typical religious moron.

[lucizoe]

You know, when you think about it, either choice in this case is selfish, in the purest sense of the word, all moral considerations aside. I hate that for some reason those who decide their lives would be better sans children are believed to be selfish, while those who decided their lives would be better with children are not. In both cases, a person is deciding what makes THEIR life better. It's not like there are little dancing zygotes standing on street corners, just begging to born, and we are ignoring their heart-wrenching pleas. People have kids because they WANT them. Some people do not have kids because they WANT their free time and money to go to other things. No one is obligated to have kids, and in my experience, those who claim that you are obligated tend to have enormous martyr and superiority complexes.

How is one choice inherently more selfish than the other? I think (in the US) that this is another stupid holdover from the puritans, the fuckers - not devoting your life to something besides yourself, and preferably being miserable whilst doing so - is less worthy than living your life to make you happy. Personally, I think selfish is having more than one child, owning more than one car, taking long hot showers everyday, buying shit from Wal-Mart and other corporate monstrosities, not recycling anything, not being aware of a world outside your own bubble, supporting war-mongers and blindly bowing to social pressures. But that's just me.

So you know, have kids, don't have kids, but don't pretend that one choice has intrinsically noble motives behind it. They are both selfish and I see nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

[kelkello]

Martoocha,

I know what you mean about feeling selfish. For me, the idea of having kids is freaky because I know how selfish I am with my time. I have a dog who takes up monumental amounts of time, and she doesn't even need me to change her diapers or help her with homework. I know if I had kids, I'd be a great mom. But knowing that doesn't mean I need to have kids. I'm dating a guy who has four daughters who live with him pretty much full time. He's had a vasectomy. I know that if he and I make it, I won't have my own kids. He wonders if that is okay. I think it is. He still is stuck in the idea that all women want babies. Frankly, I can't even see myself marrying him or even living with him until at least one of those kids is in college. It's only 3 years away *sigh* I used to think with the rosy glasses and think I could move in there and we'd be a happy family. Then I go over on a night when the girls are fighting and the house is a mess...then I'm tremendously grateful for my solitude and single girl, no kid life.

[tatiana]

martoocha, men don't "have all the time in the world to procreate." There is plenty of scientific evidence that children fathered by older men have many more problems than those fathered by men in the "normal" fathering age group.

Sorry to butt in, but that idea is a pet peeve of mine. Men (including the scientists that do the studies and think up the questions) just like to think that their swimmers don't age.

[turbojenn]

Martoocha, I think the real turning point for me, was allowing myself to be free from "the ticking clock." I've been with turboman for 12 years, and in the first, oh 8 years of our relationship, I always felt like "of course we'll have kids." And I felt that clock all the time, as if I only had until I was 30 to *live,* and then it was time to saddle down with some kids. Around my 26th birthday, I woke up, and said "screw that." Why should I be living with this imminent cloud over my head that means when I hit some artifical expiration date, what I want out of life gets put on hold.

And I've happily stayed in a position of just living my life in a way that I find enjoyable, and if that means with kids, fine. Without kids, fine. But as time passes, the more I enjoy my childfree status.

Now, the flipside of that is turboman, who, in some mild fashion, thinks that having kids might be a nice thing to do. At this very moment, he's babysitting for my 3.5 year old nephie and 1.5 year old niece, and he called me oozing with stories of cuteness, and I'm glad for that, but 12 hours of childcare just sounds exhausting to me.

[cloverbee]

martoocha, don't be so hard on yourself. it's okay to not want children for WHATEVER reason.

[ambercherry]

"i can honestly say, so far, i've been OK w/ knowing that i might not ever become a parent, however, i'm starting to wonder if this selfishness will go away at some point and if when i realize it, it will be too late (have given thoughts to adoption and am happy that there is that option)."

i wouldn't call it selfishness, martoocha. i don't want to tell you how to label your feelings, but i think not wanting to have children or get pregnant doesn't mean you're selfish. but, again, i don't want this to come across as telling you how to feel.

i'm going through a lot of similar feelings, it sounds like. i was of the childfree stance until recently, and i have been thinking a lot about having a baby - and, like you, a lot of my friends are starting to have babies. so, i'm being inundated with babies and pregnancy.

that said - i really do admire the women in here for their decisions to remain childfree!

and i love some of those answers in response to that "when are you having kids" question.

okay, i'm taking my childfree ass to bed...

[martoocha]

dear child-free by choice busties:

i was going thru the list of topics and found this one - i'm thrilled to see other busties going thru similiar emotions, as i. i knew ya'll wouldn't let me down. *smile*

i'm feeling pretty much the same as ya'll did at some point (read thru the entire thread), however, i did feel the tick of the baby clock about a year ago, then a close friend of mine got preggars and it went away VERY quickly.

i realized, i was viewing pregnancy & child rearing thru rose-colored glasses and when i started to see the reality of it, i wasn't sure it was for me or for mr. martoocha.

a good friend, who has a child, gave me the advice to start thinking about a future w/out any kids and see how i feel about it. would i feel OK with that? or would it bother me?

i can honestly say, so far, i've been OK w/ knowing that i might not ever become a parent, however, i'm starting to wonder if this selfishness will go away at some point and if when i realize it, it will be too late (have given thoughts to adoption and am happy that there is that option).

my brother & my sis-in-law recently had a baby and i'm wondering now if i'm feeling the curiosity for child bearing again because someone else has just recently gone through it or if its a true desire of mine.

mr. martoocha & i have had endless convos about having/raising kids and its never gotten to the point where either of us has made a definite decision any which way.

i guess what you said is true, turbojenn (from a very old post in this thread), it'll all work out the way its supposed to be. i just feel, we as women, have even more pressure since there is a clock-ticking (sorry for the pun here) where as men have all the time in world to procreate.

i'm still on the fence regardless...thanks for letting me vent and for the hilarious website w/ what to say to that boring question.

have a great weekend!

xo,
martoocha

[maddy29]

gotta love this one:

Another baby in the family makes my other children so happy.

yeah right, tell that to my boyfriend, the 2nd of 11 kids-everytime his mom announced she was pregnant again, he'd run out and cry

This one cracks me up too "Each child is an unbreakable bond between a father and mother." HAAAA HAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ms.gb]

as one of the resident jack mormons, i checked out that article...they are definitely not mormon...and i find that article EXTREMELY scary....

*shudders* eek.

[girlygirlgag]

Reason 102:

As you keep having children, (who are more entertaining than reading books or about current affairs) More money saving opportunites arise, for you can replace the purchasing of toys and games with "try to catch mamas' fallopian tubes dragging behind her because of birthing too many babies and the natural pull of gravity!"

[doodlebug]

"37. There is no occupation more rewarding than motherhood."

Um, how would she know? If all her time is spent parenting, she sure won't get a chance to try anything else.

"47. My children help me surrender the selfish desires of my flesh."

Translation: "I'm too tired to have regular sex anymore."

"78. There will be more people to pay for the aged's social security benefits."

"Which is good, because after giving up my career to raise all these children, I sure won't be getting any pension income!"

"93. Babies are a lot more entertaining than TV."

"....which is fortunate, because the cost of raising them meant our cable got cut off."