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> small breast support group - (I need it even if they don't)
dj-bizmonkey
post May 7 2008, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE(knorl05 @ May 6 2008, 01:22 PM) *
oboi. i still take the same stance. it's fine for others who feel they need it, but not for me. do i judge women who get implants? not so much. but i do know that those who go through with the procedure are not individuals that i can relate to on a deeper level, so i modify my interaction accordingly.


me three. my problem is not the surgery itself, but that the society we live in practically demands it of women. not only implants, but facelifts, botox, collagen injections, liposuction etc. we have to get to the root of the problem and not just treat the symptoms.

i'm not sure that i don't judge women who get implants. i'm pretty sure i do. it's not fair or righteous, but i have to admit it. i think they look silly and fake. i also think that i makes it that much more difficult to be a small-breasted woman walking around in america. maybe that's not the most popular viewpoint and it's certainly not the most open-minded and accepting, but i have to own up to how it makes me feel.

i think every concept in this world is subject to moral gradients. we all decide where our cut-off points are, but there are no absolutes. case in point, i don't like the idea of implants and i think they are unnatural, unhealthy and counter-productive. but i, like karategrrl, would be happy to preform some sort of procedure that would naturally make my breasts bigger. i'm not exactly taking the moral high-ground. in my mind it seems to be silicone=fake, unnatural, and natural=good. even beyond implants, i wouldn't discount the possibility of getting some work done when i get older. maybe i'll have a waddle i want to do away with or something. my good friend works as a secretary in a plastic surgeon's office. she always tells me, 'never say never, one day you may feel just the opposite.'

we are social creatures. everyone one wants to be accepted by some one and anyone that tries to tell you different is selling something. but i like what anarch said about constructing your own environment to reflect your own convictions. i suppose that could be interpreted as what women who get plastic surgery are doing. in their world, appearance is important, it is more important than overall wellbeing. it is the trump card. so they make sure it's the best it can be.


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karategrrl
post May 7 2008, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE(knorl05 @ May 6 2008, 06:22 PM) *
but i do know that those who go through with the procedure are not individuals that i can relate to on a deeper level, so i modify my interaction accordingly.


Me too.
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knorl05
post May 6 2008, 12:05 PM
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oboi. i still take the same stance. it's fine for others who feel they need it, but not for me. do i judge women who get implants? not so much. but i do know that those who go through with the procedure are not individuals that i can relate to on a deeper level, so i modify my interaction accordingly. i can look at it from both sides and realize there are women who feel validated through implants and feel having larger breasts completes them as a woman. different priorities is all. point being, i'm pro-choice in many different areas of life.

ps. neurotic nelly. i think that's the point strongirl was making... we all do have to duck stones frequently simply being women. why not, instead of perpetuate the stonings, try to make life a little easier on eachother as women. knowing that we all do endure similar struggles and realize part of the intention of being a feminist (IMHO) is to encourage the liberation and empowerment of women of all social and cultural backgrounds.


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neurotic.nelly
post May 6 2008, 09:18 AM
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yeah, what karategrrl said.

I duck stones all the time in this world, from everywhere. Sometimes I get hit, I've got to pick myself up. That's self esteem. No one can make you feel inadequate, not your friends or your boyfriends or the media. That's responsibility for yourself and your feelings.

I am not saying that we should criticize women who want a little more "cush" than they've got to make them feel more "normal". I can understand this, and maybe even support it.

Short story:

I friend of mine's boyfriend offered to pay for her breast implants. She was going to get them. Her reason was this. She is a big girl, over 200 lbs, big arms, big legs, big head, big mouth, big eyes, big but, and tiny breasts (A cups). She felt that getting breasts implants would balance out her body. I agreed. No criticism. I supported her. It made sense to me. She's beautiful now, though.

I think of myself as having small breasts, but I have got a little something there, and they grow during ovulation and such. I have to acknowledge that it must be easier for me to be pro-small breasts. Then again, I find women with smaller breasts attractive as well.


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karategrrl
post May 6 2008, 07:15 AM
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Well, since the board has taken an implant-supportive shift, I won't post those photos of the implanted women from my workout book. laugh.gif

I am a little confused...haven't we been saying all along how we should feel good about ourselves so we don't have to go to lengths such as implantation to feel "complete?" No, I don't think we should go around verbally abusing women (or throwing stones at) women who get implants. But isn't true liberation about being free from expectations, not being free to get implants?

Yes, there are some definite grey areas when one compares implants with other practices such as tattoos, hairstyling, body piercing, etc. Every culture has its version of body adornment. I think what is critical is the motivation behind it, however--when one does something for fun/to express themself, etc. versus when one cannot feel good about themself or feel "complete" without doing something drastic and full of health risks--such as implants.
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knorl05
post May 5 2008, 11:41 PM
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strongirl: i share your approach toward feminism and have so much respect and appreciation of your views. thx for the link too.. def encouraging.

"And part of being supportive is not criticizing what they do to feel better about themselves, whether that is implants, Botox, or whatever. Implants are unnatural but so are piercings, tattoos, mascara, and even shampoo for that matter.."

excellent point. we all participate in social grooming practices (..improvements and modifications) to various degrees. if we want to get completely purist, we could say that one of the reasons fashion emerged was to signify status and draw attention to ourselves. and that for an extremely long time, we've been changing our appearances in different ways to make ourselves more physically attractive.. and not all of the ways we've done this are considered healthy. we are social creatures. much of what we do, whether consciously or not, is the result of other people's perceptions of us. i dont think anyone is completely free of the influence within any culture, community, or society. we can strive to make ourselves more aware, but i think that in order to identify with those of whom we relate, we have to conform our behaviors to that of those around us. without that element of conformity, or assimilation, we wouldnt have as many opportunities for growth and development as individuals imo.

that being said.. anarch made an excellent point about modifying her environment to reflect her beliefs. rather than take drastic measures to fit a more mainstream image/lifestyle, she's living true to her own convictions and asking that of those around her as well. i find that when we turn off the tv, close the mags, shut down the computer, what we're left with is only ourselves. if we cant love and accept ourselves in those moments of solitude, it is near impossible to counteract the messages that intentionally eat away at our self esteem.


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strongirl
post May 5 2008, 09:10 AM
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Vendetta's comments really touched my heart. I personally want to support other small-breasted women (and all women, really) in feeling good about themselves but also in giving an ear and a shoulder when they do not feel good about themselves. And part of being supportive is not criticizing what they do to feel better about themselves, whether that is implants, Botox, or whatever. Implants are unnatural but so are piercings, tattoos, mascara, and even shampoo for that matter. Let she who is without sin cast the first stone (Luddite lurkers step forward).

I dislike the aspect of our culture that puts unhealthy emphasis on women's appearance, I dislike the idea that we all have to strive for a narrow esthetic ideal rather than embrace diversity, I worry that women risk their overall health by inserting foreign objects in their chests in order to have bigger breasts. But as a caring feminist I offer congratulations to women who are happy with their implants, and concern to those who struggle with health problems and poor results with theirs. For us to regard women who get implants with criticism, scorn, and moral superiority just perpetuates competition and isolation among women. Let's try not to do that here (not that I think we do but interpretations can vary and I wonder if that is what Vendetta is reacting to).

Feel free to call me on it if I do it - I try not to but again, interpretations can vary. I will try, as Vendetta says, to respect other people's choices.

At the same time, Vendetta - there isn't necessarily something "wrong" with being flat-chested or small-breasted. It is part of the range of "normal" body types and has no negative health implications whatsoever. For my positive contribution to small-titty self-esteem for the day, here is a link to pics of a model who was in Playboy, believe it or not, and is one of their top models for promotional events, etc. Check it out - she's smokin' hot!

http://www.playmates.altervista.org/2001/l...c_hil_menu.html

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karategrrl
post May 5 2008, 08:11 AM
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Everyone else out there in the world has something we don't--and sometimes wish we did--and each of us has something that at least someone out there wishes they had, at least some of the time. I think that to be happy and feel complete, the highest goal for each of us would be to love ourselves the way we are and surround ourselves with people who support us the way we are. The opposite of that is to go to big lengths to do the opposite--that is, as I see it, to change ourselves to adhere to how others think we should be, or to our own sense of how we should be--if that image of how we "should be" is something that has been shaped by society or others' comments.

I have said before and I'll say again that if there was a SAFE, cheaper alternative to breast implants, I'd be hard-pressed not to do it, and that is true. However, I am confident saying that because I would only want to be a larger A cup, or maybe B cup, and my motivation would mainly be to make clothing issues easier, not to try and fit someone else's mold.

It has been difficult to get to this point, but I can say with conviction at this point in my life that I love my breasts and my body overall. Sure, if I had magical powers, I'd want smaller feet and hands (so I wouldn't have such a hard time finding shoes and gloves), larger breasts, non-grey hair (so I wouldn't have to dye it), perfect vision (no need for glasses), but shit, overall, I have a lot to be thankful for. There are people in this world without feet, hands, vision, etc. who would give their left eyetooth to be me, small breasts and all. So I try and count my blessings and, yes, even give thanks for the fact that having small breasts is my biggest complaint in life sometimes.

And yes, I do dye my hair, and I have had a mole on my face removed. To me, these are minor things. However, I consider implants inserted into the torso of the body--where your lungs, heart, and pectoral muscles are designed to be--not foreign objects--a major invasion of the body, and totally not worth it. Yes, to each their own, but I figure one must really hate themselves to be willing to take all those risks rather than just be themselves. That I find very sad.

I was once shopping for dresses in a store. I started talking to the woman next to me, also small-breasted. I saw a dress, held it up and said, "This would look good on you," to which she replied--with conviction--"Oh, I have no chest. That would look DISGUSTING on me!" I was rather shocked and saddened anyone could dislike themselves so much. My feeling--"yeah, well, I'd just wear my padded bra, or wear none and show off my nips."

Hope all this makes an ounce of sense! I am rambling!
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anarch
post May 4 2008, 12:32 PM
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Women getting boob jobs to make them feel "complete" - I don't criticize them because nothing good comes of such negativity, but that motivation worries me, and if they ask for my input, I say so. It's a short-term fix with a bunch of health risks to boot. Practicing feeling good about myself, surrounding myself with acquaintances and friends who are positive about small boobs, asking or telling negative friends or family not to say shit tearing down small boobage in my hearing, going out only with men who were interested in the real me and loved my small boobs because they're part of me - this is a long-term fix. It has had ripple effects that mean my happiness, and sense of being a complete person, depends on me, and people who genuinely care about me and who will be my supports for decades.

OK so it may not work out that way for everyone but I think more women would be happier in the long term if they walked a few miles down this path, just to see what would happen. The way I experienced it, it might have some parallels with alcoholism or other addictions (not that I know anything about those, I've just read a little here and there, so my apologies if I'm presuming) - almost impossible to kick without also kicking the environments and people who enable the self-negativity. But once those boundaries are drawn and the negatives are firmly told they're not welcome any more, there's more chance for positive people and behaviours to take root, and bloom.

On a lighter note:

I was talking with my cousin recently about buying my first bikini. I'm 36, never bought one before because I was way too self-conscious, but now I'm moving to northern CA and my husband is out there already and after walking around on a beach he's all wild about us getting me a bikini. So my cousin tells a story about the first time she bought a bikini, which had lots of padding. "They soaked up water like a sponge and when I came out of the water they started to shed all this water, so I crossed my arms over them but the pressure made them leak STREAMS of water, oh my God I was mortified!"

biggrin.gif

Maybe the newer ones don't do that, but she never bought very padded ones again.
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knorl05
post May 4 2008, 12:18 AM
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vendetta: is that a rhetorical question?
i suppose the point i've tried to make is that i am striving to make sure that i do not feel incomplete due to lack of more breast tissue. i'm not looking to fit some perfect little mold, to have something more than what i have, i'm continuing to strive to dispel the misconception that small breasts are undesirable or unattractive or shameful. i'm continuing to work toward accepting myself as i am, perceived flaws or not. this is my choice. you have the freedom and (possibly?) the resources to make a different choice. it's your body and what i think of that decision really shouldnt concern you one way or the other. you dont have to explain or justify yourself to anyone. who you are is who you are, do what you have to do. just know that there are people in the world who judge &or criticize over such choices, so be prepared for a negative backlash. sure in a perfect world, everyone would respect one another and their options or choices, but that's just not how it is. so do it for you and no one else, whether they be positive or negative reactions.


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Vendetta
post May 3 2008, 02:48 PM
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I don't need the media or society to tell me that something's "wrong" with me, I just need to leave the house and take a walk around to look at every other women and figure out that they have something that I don't. Some small busties don't care about it, others do. Some women feel incomplete, others don't. We're not all the same. So why should people criticize those who choose to do something for theirselves, if there's an option nowadays? Not everyone wants to have double D's on their chest and not everyone is stupid enough to do it. Some people just want to have "something", to feel complete. So why shouldn't we respect some people's options?
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neurotic.nelly
post May 1 2008, 10:32 AM
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QUOTE(strongirl @ Apr 30 2008, 10:38 AM) *
I just saw that Kate Hudson is #1 on People Magazine's Most Beautiful list for this year! The editor said that she was chosen partly for her "natural beauty" and said how refreshing she is compared to so many stars with breast implants and nose jobs. How cool is that? smile.gif

Oh so cool. I have always thought that KH's breasts were the cutest.


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karategrrl
post Apr 30 2008, 01:24 PM
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That Craislist ad is too ridiculous. I mean, "experiAnce"?? The perv can't even spell.

Though I agree it should be reported, it would have been fun to send in some interesting pics, as the guy not once said the breasts must belong to females or humans. I'd send a pic of hubby's hairy chest, my rabbit's chests, maybe a pic of chicken breasts. Or photoshopped images of three breasts on a chest. We could have fun with that! wink.gif
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strongirl
post Apr 30 2008, 11:21 AM
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I just saw that Kate Hudson is #1 on People Magazine's Most Beautiful list for this year! The editor said that she was chosen partly for her "natural beauty" and said how refreshing she is compared to so many stars with breast implants and nose jobs. How cool is that? smile.gif
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knorl05
post Apr 30 2008, 09:38 AM
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dj biz: you definitely are well informed! and just so you know, the way you present the information is also very interesting/intriguing and not at all dry. wink.gif many times -imho- facts are presented without passion or an openmind, but you've got both, which makes me more inclined to "listen up"! very gifted lady you are.

is very sad and angering to see that ad on craigslist. obviously some creepy creep trying to connive his/her way into getting a whole ton of wannabe models sending pics in of their breastesis. if it were a "real" photographer, s/he would want way more legitimate information from the models... and if he or she were at all a well established photographer, s/he'd have better connections and ways of networking than some random ad on craigslist. arg. good call on reporting them!


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dj-bizmonkey
post Apr 30 2008, 07:01 AM
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i am such a freakin' nerd and grad school is just making it worse. the ONLY reason i know this stuff is because i just took a behavioral endocrinology class and a sex and reproduction class at the same time! sorry if i sound like a textbook or a know-it-all, because i definitely do NOT.

i never thought about that aspect of 'GI Jane.' it's the same with your fitness models. they are supposed to be the pinnacle of health, right? so if you are perfectly healthy, in body and mind, why would you need to go under the knife? isn't the point of being a fitness model to be, well, fit and not fake? i had a yoga instructor once, teeny-tiny lady, enormous fake breasts. she always seemed like a walking contradiction. everytime i looked at her, i'd think of george's dad on seinfeld shouting 'serenity NOW!'

i'm having a good breast day. on a random note, i found this ad on craigslist:

QUOTE
Art Gallery : Breast Models Body Parts (Metairie, LA)

No Experiance Needed!

Here is the opportunity to get into modeling and artistic field.

Quiet studio setting atmosphere.

Breast Models needed for Art Gallery Photo Project

Please send a front image standing with arms at sides and frame in the natural hang of the breast. No face needed in picture.

All models will be answered and picked accordingly for this project.

Compensation will be session rate according to model and experiance.


I mean, come ON, there is no phone number, no website, no explanation of the project. i reported it. if this really is an artist he/she is an idiot, but more i get the feeling it is some perve hoping some lady will be too dumb to figure out his scam. gross.


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karategrrl
post Apr 30 2008, 06:45 AM
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Thanks for the contraception lesson, DJ! Dang, you are one smart cookie. The literature that comes with the pills I take has two parts: a silly, pink brochure with cute pictures of lovey couples--that stresses the importance of taking the pill at the same time every day--but never explains WHY--and a poster-sized pharmaceutical statement filled with text in a tiny 6-pt font size, complete with chemical equations and diagrams. I mean, I am smart and I read the "poster" but still came away saying, "Whaaa?"

"i don't remember that line in 'some like it hot,' i'll have to rent that again. although there are plenty of buxom old movie stars like claudette colbert, jayne mansfield, marilyn monroe, there were also plenty of small busties representing. audrey hepburn, lauren bacall, bette davis etc. "

This is true. Give me that old-time glamour any day. LUUV Lauren Bacall.

"those pictures sound freakish. it makes me think of demi moore in 'GI Jane' (which i secretely love). she's all buff, doing pull ups, but her fake breasts (i guess she got them for 'striptease') just look silly and out of place. post them if you can. i'm always up for a little schadden-freude (sp?)"

I know, GI Jane!! I, too, love that movie, but the implants, to me, never looked right, either--they don't look right on such a buff woman, and certainly don't go with the whole philosophy of being liberated and strong, and above all--fighting stereotypes--as her character was. And we all know, it's the stereotypes that make small-breasted women often feel inadequate and "flawed," and thus "needing" impants to "correct" their imperfect bodies.

Yep, "schadden-freude." I don't know how to spell it either, but know of what you speak!! smile.gif
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dj-bizmonkey
post Apr 29 2008, 03:10 PM
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this is way OT, but if you're interested....most birth control pills contain a combination of synthetic estrogen and progesterone. the main way they work is by inhibiting the FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) and the LH (lutenizing hormone) which prevents ovulation from occuring. if you aren't careful about taking the pill every day around the same time, you run the risk of lowering your progesterone/estrogen levels to the point that FSH and LH are no longer inhibited and POOF! there goes an egg. 9 out of 10 times when a woman gets pregnant on the pill, its because she hasn't been consistent about taking it. you've got to maintain your levels! that's why sometimes it takes a day or two for you to start your pseudo-period when you are taking the placebo/sugar pills.

the progesterone DOES prevent implantation as it disturbs the endometrial lining. when you are pregnant, is actually what stabilizes the uterus so you don't shed the lining once the blastocyst is implanted. but too much progesterone overstimulates the endometrium and it because a hostile place for any fertilized egg. that's actually the way that emergency contraception works, overstimulating the endometrial lining to prevent implantation. that overstimulation is part of why you might feel so icky when you take it. RU-486 or the so-called 'abortion pill' actually blocks progesterone receptors in your uterus causing the opposite effect, instead of too much endometrial growth, the lining is shed and with it, any egg that might have implanted. i chose to stop having my period because i can feel the contractions in my uterus as the endometrial lining is shedding. it's like having a banshee in there clawing at my insides. no thank you. one of the fantastic things about the women's movement is reproductive rights! if you like/want to have your period every month, every three months, every year, every three years, you can! it's all about comfort level. sometimes i miss ovulating and i wonder what it will be like when i eventually go off the pill. i wonder if i will go off the deep end entirely.

i don't remember that line in 'some like it hot,' i'll have to rent that again. although there are plenty of buxom old movie stars like claudette colbert, jayne mansfield, marilyn monroe, there were also plenty of small busties representing. audrey hepburn, lauren bacall, bette davis etc.

those pictures sound freakish. it makes me think of demi moore in 'GI Jane' (which i secretely love). she's all buff, doing pull ups, but her fake breasts (i guess she got them for 'striptease') just look silly and out of place. post them if you can. i'm always up for a little schadden-freude (sp?)



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karategrrl
post Apr 29 2008, 01:51 PM
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DJ, you never cease to amaze me. You're so full of info!! I had no idea one didn't let go with an egg monthly when they took the pill--I just thought the pill interfered with the egg's ability to implant in the uterus. And here I am, always taking great pains to know just what's going on in my body all the time. wink.gif

My gyn just told me that, accordng to a new statistic, after age 38 or 39 (I forget which), a woman's fertility spikes downward; each month there is a 10-15% decrease in fertility. Good news for me, since I have no plans for preggery (though a friend of mine, same age, is now 6 months preggy).

I agree, we are surely in the "big fake boob era" of our Western cultural evolution. I remember in "Some Like it Hot" Marilyn Monroe complimenting smaller breasts, b/c with them "clothes fit so much better."

I will have to post some scans of a workout book I bought yesterday. It is a really comprehensive book of exercises, but what is comical is that 90% of the women in it are obviously breast-implanted. Looks ridiculous. What gets me is the irony of it--many women in fitness have low body fat, which naturally dictates smaller breasts for many, since breasts are partly fat. But implants are **foreign objects in the body** which are, by definition, unhealthy (as evidenced by the body's trying to reject them--a cause of capsular contraction in many implants. Even in organ donations in the most compatible donors, the recipient has to go on a lifelong regimen of anti-rejection drugs.
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neurotic.nelly
post Apr 29 2008, 01:48 PM
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delurks,

edited: moving question to more appropriate thread.

strongirl - you have said everything that I intended but couldn't express. you kick ass!

relurks.


--------------------
Earth: A Satanically ran planet where 98% of it's inhabitants are unquestioning, conformist idiots who are totally controlled and manipulated by the Satanic governments of the world and have been made complacent by said governments, through rigorous brainwashing.
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