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> Mooooving on!!!!!
girltrouble
post Mar 15 2009, 03:55 PM
Post #561


new highs in personal lows daily!
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From: wherever ink is put in skin...


don't worry, bunny, i am not taking this personally, i still adore you, but i disagree with you.

before i get into the meat of what you are saying, i think pugs "bratty comment" was a direct result of the hostility in your post. go back and re-read your post. it is seething with anger. pugs was already vulnerable and you basically attacked her out of frustration. then feeling hurt, or suspecting that what you were saying about her was true (although, i think her intention was not the one you assign to her), she deleted it. after which you take an opportunity to attack her again. honestly, bunny, i think she's justified, and her comment did not merit your name calling.

even if pugs and the mr are back together, it is only a matter of time before that comes apart too. i don't say that with any sort of glee. i think pugs has grown up too much, seen too much. she suspects that mr and that woman have fooled around, and my guess is they have, and eventually mr will confess that they had during that period they were apart, but he will not tell her it is on going. that point is moot, the fact is, he has cheated emotionally, and that is something that she will see in time. he is not the man she thought he was, and if that is now, or a year or ten is up to pugs. but she will get there. the reason she went back to him, whether she knows it or not is because she's scared. she doesn't see that she's strong enough to be on her own, she can't see that pugs that we know out there, five years out that knows leaving mr was the best thing she's ever done. she's never been an adult on her own and it terrifies her. she can't see that he's hurting her, and she's hurting herself. so she goes back. but maybe that's what she needs. she needs to have this illusion of her relationship with the mr. ruined completely, till she has no choice but to go. we've all gone back to a relationship we knew we shouldn't have. we go till what we have closed our eyes to has been made utterly clear. we go back until we learn that we should have listened to our gut, we go back until we see what and why everyone told us not to go back. because we need to. because we need to learn that lesson the hard way.

don't be mad at pugs for going back, she's never broken up with anyone, she hasn't learned those hard knock lessons you and i have. if anything be more generous to her, have pity on her. and hope that she comes to her senses soon, and not in 20 years and a messy, ugly divorce.

i'm not being soft on pugs, i am sure she will probably read my posts, but i am sure she knows i care very deeply for her, and i know she knows what i am saying to be true. but i know she feels like she needs to do this, knowing that she is making her own mistake. i understand that, i guess i am the sort that i take advise when i choose, but when i know it is a mistake i need to make i do that, knowing it will hurt, and i will not like it and i could take the easy road. i know i need to do it.

that said i find it stunning that you dismiss her calling her wedding off so easily. even if she does get back together and marry him (god forbid), the amount of shit, and shame, and humiliation she's had to endure from friends and family was no small thing, i can assure you.


look, i understand your loss of patience, and distaste for the post/hug response, but we are here to support each other in part. i hope that you never have something happen so horribly monumental in your life that you can see nothing else, and ask for support. i say this with no mean spirit, but one of sadness. pugs has not been posting here everyday looking for more and more petting. it's been a while since she posted, and i suspect because she was afraid she would get the sort of response you offered. this is an ongoing situation, and there isn't a statute of limitations on it.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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bunnyb
post Mar 15 2009, 02:58 PM
Post #562


The artist now known as I don't give a shit.
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However, the content of the post that was deleted was that she and mr pugs have agreed to get married soon so, no, I don't think she is coming to terms with the breaking down of a thirteen years relationship. The other parts of the post were about the problems they are experiencing because of the female friend of mr pugs and him potentially never wanting children.

GT, I completely see your PoV. I sympathise with the emotional turmoil that's pugs is going through; I couldn't bear to imagine the pain of a relationship breaking down like that. However, pugs and mr pugs are back together, moving on together and -I presume- trying to work out the many problems they are having and yet pugs posts in an environment where she knows she is going to receive a lot of opinions, but tries to filter out the ones that don't agree with her and what she's not doing. Pugs isn't posting (or posting and then deleting) because people are not agreeing with the choices she is making. By withdrawing she is courting sympathy (amongst those who care) and she will receive and write PMs that contain only positive support.

Her bratty comment to me, that she could count on me? completely expected but out of line. I was the one who drew pugs out to put it all out there before the wedding was postponed and I was one of many who said that the wedding should be postponed so I'm not sure what it is that she can count me on ... saying something the doesn't want to hear? If you are not willing or prepared to receive all-round feedback then don't post on a public forum! Requesting that you only hear good things because of your fragility doesn't work and is incredibly insulting.

It's not that I don't like that my advice isn't being heeded, I'm not emotionally vested in this and she's entitled to make her own choices but I don't like the drama: she posts, everybody replies/fawns over her/she dislikes most of it/goes away and lives her choices for while before making new choices/comes back and seeks validation for those choices. I am not part of pugs' personal pep squad.

As for her contribution: perhaps in the past but now pugs contributes things that are only self-serving.

GT, I don't want this to affect us; I've spoken out because I've had enough of pugs' drama and using the lounge but now I've vented I'm bored. Also, this is giving pugs attention and I'm not playing that game.


--------------------
"Hey, did anyone ever think Sylvia Plath wasn't crazy, maybe she was just cold? " (Lorelai Gilmore)
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girltrouble
post Mar 15 2009, 02:18 PM
Post #563


new highs in personal lows daily!
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considering only two people read her post, i doubt that, bunny.

as for her over all activity, i disagree, i think pugs participated in a great many threads. i think of the bdsm thread for one, where she contributed a great deal her bravery and honesty was breathtaking and would not be the same without her. but that is a silly assertion in the first place. do we wait for a bustie to participate at a certain level before we reply to them? of course not.

but back to your point: her contribution, of course, were before the problems with mr. when she had them, she started to withdrawl, and for a while didn't post at all because she was dealing with it. then she asked for our advise, and after listening to it, called off her wedding. something i am sure was extremely difficult. right now she is going thru a situation which, for her is earth shattering: her life as she knew it-- as she imagined it since her teens i might add-- melting down.

look, i understand your frustration, but think about it from her point of view, please, bunny. she called off her wedding to a guy she's been dating forever. that wasn't a baby step, it was a huge leap. do you know how hard that must have been? the humiliation and hurt she must have felt? to say that she's not listened, after that i think is cruel. while she knows it was the right thing to do in her head, in heart of hearts, she's not sure. she misses what she's had. she thinks that she can go back to the way things were. using a biblical metaphor, she's left the garden, and she wants back in. she doesn't realize that she can't go back, that she will be unhappy. but give her time to find her way. please. be patient with her. this is the hardest thing she's ever had to do.

you and i have probably had quite a few relationships, she has had one. this one. it's lasted 13 years. longer than any you or i have had. i can't imagine how heartbreaking and disillusioning that is. i can't imagine how hard it would be to see outside that. so if she was a bit self-involved, i think she's got cause.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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bunnyb
post Mar 15 2009, 02:02 PM
Post #564


The artist now known as I don't give a shit.
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GT, pugs' overall activity in the lounge is attention seeking, including the deletion of her post, which is why I called her a drama queen: it's still drawing attention to herself. In withdrawing like a poor wounded puppy she ensures that other jump to her defense (more eloquently than she ever could).


--------------------
"Hey, did anyone ever think Sylvia Plath wasn't crazy, maybe she was just cold? " (Lorelai Gilmore)
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girltrouble
post Mar 15 2009, 01:54 PM
Post #565


new highs in personal lows daily!
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i find it funny, bunny that you call her post "pure attention-seeking." but then call her a drama queen for deleting it. seems to me she can't win. look, i know you are frustrated with pugs. but i think there is this sort prediliction of....projection when one is doling out advise. we tend to see ourselves in the situation, and ask what we would do, with all of our experiences, and lessons we've learned. not to call someone out, but that was what aural did with mouse, but mouse is very, very different than aural, they see/act/behave/move in the world very differently. so what seems like the most obvious thing, the most natural thing for aural, is just not within mouse's range of possiblities. now, mouse may grow into someone who can do aural's suggestion, but that takes time and tide, and many more experiences. i hope neither of them mind me bringing that up, because i don't think either person was wrong in their advise/action (or lack their of), i think aural's advise would have cut short many of the problems mouse was having, but i also know that just wasn't in mouse's dna. the were both right in what they did. the problem came when aural insisted that mouse take her way, parallel to what is happening here. i understand why aural did it, she was frustrated, but aural projecting who she was on mouse's situation did nothing but alienate mouse. i think the same thing can be said here. pugs is still has so much to learn. take it from someone who was a late bloomer. you never realize how much you've missed out on. it takes a while to catch up to everyone else and it's terribly scary.

in the time since she first started posting here, she's grown by leaps and bounds, she's discovered there is much more to her than she ever dreamed. she used to think there wasn't much too her, and that the best part of her was mr. pugs. since then she's gone back to school, gotten a good job, and started to see that mr. pugs isn't the end-all-be-all. she's started to see the cracks in this dream life she's had since she met mr. pugs. remember, they started dating young, and she's never dated anyone else. imagine if you had dated your first love 13 years. there is a whole lot of experiences that you haven't had. you would still cling to the idea that some how you were meant to be with this person. i don't thing pugs is being a drama queen or being manipulative, but rather, she is trying to figure out what the hell to do. the disintegration of her relationship has been nothing less that earthshaking for her, and this idea that she should just take all of the advise everyone's giving her and move on... in her circumstances, with her lack of experience, i just don't think that's realistic.

do i think pugs is making a mistake if she stays with the mr? absolutely, and i think she will see that in time. but if she needs to make her own mistakes, it's not for me to tell her she'll be sorry, or heckle or name call because her inability to see things as i do. she's gotta get there on her own. if that means that she needs to stick around for 2, 4, or even 10 years, then that is what she needs to do. do i wish it weren't so? ofcourse, but she simply may not be capable, or maybe she's just going thru the stages of mourning for the only relationship she's ever had. either way, insulting and badgering her isn't going to change her mind, it will only chase her away, and pugs has contributed a lot to this lounge. so, be blunt, sure, but there is no need to be mean. give her some time. i think if we support her, telling her gently, she will come around, but don't expect her to do it in your timeframe.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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roseviolet
post Mar 15 2009, 01:31 PM
Post #566


Pacifism kicks ass!
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Zoya, that's a really good way to put it. Another person's perspective or feedback really can shed a lot of light on certain situations. I think most of the people who post in these threads are seeking exactly that. I know a lot of us have benefited from the wise words and fabulous input from the Busties. It can be a lot of help in many situations.

Here's a perfect example.


QUOTE(zoya @ Mar 15 2009, 02:08 PM) *
(and clearly if she's not 100% sure about what she's doing in her own heart, and needing other people's approval to make her feel good about her choices, her gut is probably not feeling very good about what she's doing. Kinda mind over matter. Only she's asking us to be her mind)


That's an extremely interesting idea. Heartbreaking, but interesting.

A few of us have occasionally sent Pugs some vibes or asked how she's holding up, so I suspect that her post was mostly an up-date for those of us who have been worried about her. She may have requested our approval, but in a way that doesn't matter. After all of this time & all of the information that has been exchanged, it's impossible for many of us to not have an opinion on this situation, whether she asks us for our approval or not.
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zoya
post Mar 15 2009, 01:08 PM
Post #567


uh huh.
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QUOTE(roseviolet @ Mar 15 2009, 11:33 AM) *
The only opinion that matters is LMP's opinion. It's totally, completely in her hands and I bet that scares the ever-loving shit out of her. That's why she keeps asking other people for their opinion, but deep deep down she KNOWS it's all up to her. Pugs is going to do whatever she wants to do, whether we like it or not. In a lot of ways, that's GOOD. I don't want her to be a puppet that we can manipulate. I don't want to be pulling her strings & have her living life in a certain way just because we tell her it's the right choice.
.



Agreed - but there is a difference between letting other people tell you what to do, and listening to other people's feedback, weighing and considering another p.o.v. that may be seeing things in a different way because those people aren't inside the situation at hand. Taking that into consideration as part of your personal growth. That's why I always say "feedback" or "input" rather than "advice." I think you're right, pugs is gonna do what ever she is gonna do, which indeed is good - but I feel like all she's coming here for at this point is approval on her choices, so she can feel better about what she's doing (and clearly if she's not 100% sure about what she's doing in her own heart, and needing other people's approval to make her feel good about her choices, her gut is probably not feeling very good about what she's doing. Kinda mind over matter. Only she's asking us to be her mind)

QUOTE(roseviolet @ Mar 15 2009, 11:33 AM) *
But Pugs, here's something I hope you'll understand: People who love you and care about you WILL want to tell you how they really feel. If they disagree with your choice, eventually they will tell you. It's extremely emotionally exhausting to attempt to support a person who is making a decision that appears wrong & even damaging. We can try to sit back and play nicey-nicey for a while, but even the most patient person cannot do that forever..


agreed.
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bunnyb
post Mar 15 2009, 12:58 PM
Post #568


The artist now known as I don't give a shit.
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Posts: 4,053


QUOTE(roseviolet @ Mar 15 2009, 05:33 PM) *
In LMP's deleted post, she mentioned that she has asked tons of people for advice and that everyone has told her that since she & Mr. P cannot agree on children & religion, they should break up. However, those opinions aren't enough. She wants to go back to the therapist and see what one more person has to say. Mr. P says that LMP is relying too much on other people to tell her how to live her own life.

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter what the therapist says. It doesn't matter what LMP's family says. Or her friends. Or us. If any of these opinions DID matter, she wouldn't be with him anymore. The only opinion that matters is LMP's opinion. It's totally, completely in her hands and I bet that scares the ever-loving shit out of her. That's why she keeps asking other people for their opinion, but deep deep down she KNOWS it's all up to her. Pugs is going to do whatever she wants to do, whether we like it or not. In a lot of ways, that's GOOD. I don't want her to be a puppet that we can manipulate. I don't want to be pulling her strings & have her living life in a certain way just because we tell her it's the right choice.

But Pugs, here's something I hope you'll understand: People who love you and care about you WILL want to tell you how they really feel. If they disagree with your choice, eventually they will tell you. It's extremely emotionally exhausting to attempt to support a person who is making a decision that appears wrong & even damaging. We can try to sit back and play nicey-nicey for a while, but even the most patient person cannot do that forever.


Thank you, rose, for not coddling pugs and perpetuating her ... whatever it is she is doing. You speak from a kind place where I am just pissed off in general but if you and I and zoya are saying the same things in different ways then maybe somebody will get through to her (it sure as hell won't be me considering her bratty response).

However, I do need to say this: I read "I don't want her to be a puppet that we can manipulate" and laughed because the way I see it, it's the other way around. Pugs is playing people on this board by playing the martyr when a lot of what she posts (and then deletes) is pure attention-seeking. I am not disputing that she is in a rough situation (trainwreck springs to mind) but she doesn't do herself any favours by being selfish, self-obsessed and bratty. Her latest post, before it was deleted, again was all about her and how she has to compromise; she doesn't see that people don't get what they want all of the time, that life doesn't work that way. Perhaps pugs and mr pugs are made for one another and should go and get married (the substance of the post that was deleted) but she has to go and live her life or make her own mistakes and stop dramatising it all. In other words: she has to grow up.


--------------------
"Hey, did anyone ever think Sylvia Plath wasn't crazy, maybe she was just cold? " (Lorelai Gilmore)
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roseviolet
post Mar 15 2009, 12:33 PM
Post #569


Pacifism kicks ass!
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In LMP's deleted post, she mentioned that she has asked tons of people for advice and that everyone has told her that since she & Mr. P cannot agree on children & religion, they should break up. However, those opinions aren't enough. She wants to go back to the therapist and see what one more person has to say. Mr. P says that LMP is relying too much on other people to tell her how to live her own life.

But here's the thing. It doesn't matter what the therapist says. It doesn't matter what LMP's family says. Or her friends. Or us. If any of these opinions DID matter, she wouldn't be with him anymore. The only opinion that matters is LMP's opinion. It's totally, completely in her hands and I bet that scares the ever-loving shit out of her. That's why she keeps asking other people for their opinion, but deep deep down she KNOWS it's all up to her. Pugs is going to do whatever she wants to do, whether we like it or not. In a lot of ways, that's GOOD. I don't want her to be a puppet that we can manipulate. I don't want to be pulling her strings & have her living life in a certain way just because we tell her it's the right choice.

But Pugs, here's something I hope you'll understand: People who love you and care about you WILL want to tell you how they really feel. If they disagree with your choice, eventually they will tell you. It's extremely emotionally exhausting to attempt to support a person who is making a decision that appears wrong & even damaging. We can try to sit back and play nicey-nicey for a while, but even the most patient person cannot do that forever.
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zoya
post Mar 15 2009, 10:19 AM
Post #570


uh huh.
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pugs - I didn't read your first post before you deleted it, but just based on the quote in bunnyb's post, I have to ask, why are you posting your stuff on a public forum - especially one like bust where you know that you will get heartfelt, non sugar coated feedback - if you only want to hear something that's not going to make you feel upset? That's how we learn and grow in life, by dealing with shit we don't necessarily want to deal with, which sometimes includes hearing shit we don't want to hear.

The deletion of your post, and your response to bunnyb bums me out. It shows me that you really don't care so much about the busties and what input they can have in helping you learn and grow, that all you really want is to get approval for whatever it is you're doing, so that you can feel ok about it. That's not learning and growing. That's staying stuck.
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bunnyb
post Mar 15 2009, 08:43 AM
Post #571


The artist now known as I don't give a shit.
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*shrugs* any time...

I see you deleted your post. God you are such a drama queen.


--------------------
"Hey, did anyone ever think Sylvia Plath wasn't crazy, maybe she was just cold? " (Lorelai Gilmore)
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LoveMyPugs
post Mar 15 2009, 07:08 AM
Post #572







thanks bunnyb...knew i could count on you...
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bunnyb
post Mar 15 2009, 06:45 AM
Post #573


The artist now known as I don't give a shit.
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Posts: 4,053


QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Mar 15 2009, 03:12 AM) *
when reading this please remember that i am in a very tender spot right now and don't fire off at me. i just want to share this with you all. many of you PM me and want to know how I am. i always put 110% of myself out here on the boards. maybe that is wrong but i do it anyway cause i'm honest like that. so please just remember that i'm tender hearted and sensitive person when you respond.


To be honest, I don't know why you post on a public forum when you state that you don't want public opinion. Why ask for advice when you don't listen anyway, and only want us to say what you want to hear? I don't mollycoddle people or only tell people what they want to hear: maybe that is wrong but I do it anyway cos I'm honest like that. By putting a disclaimer on your post strikes me as manipulating the responses so that they do, indeed, validate your choices. I gave you an honest, heartfelt and logical reply (well many replies) when you first posted about your relationship problems in full and I received nothing but shit for it; you asked for our opinions and didn't like what we had to say and you took one thing I said (esteem issues) amongst many and focused only on that and wouldn't hear anything else. Once we all spent a lot of time responding to you and investing in it you flounced because turns out our suggestion of postponing/cancelling the wedding and seeking therapy was the way to go.

The above quote pisses me off: BUSTies are also the most sensitive and tender of people but we don't bullshit. I understand that you are going through a difficult time and feel a lot of hurt but don't use the boards to live your life for you and choose what to do next; no other BUSTie does that.


--------------------
"Hey, did anyone ever think Sylvia Plath wasn't crazy, maybe she was just cold? " (Lorelai Gilmore)
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roseviolet
post Mar 14 2009, 11:09 PM
Post #574


Pacifism kicks ass!
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((((((((((((((((((((((Pugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I look forward to the day when you finally learn the language of your own heart. I feel like it keeps trying to tell you something, but you just can't translate its meaning yet. I've been there. Therapy helped me a lot.

You say your gut is telling you not to get married yet. I think, in an odd way, that is a positive sign. It means you're making personal progress. Instead of just asking others what to do, a part of you is communicating this information to you. Your heart is telling you what to do! Hooray! Umm ... kinda. wink.gif The point is listen to your gut. Trust what it has to say. It doesn't necessarily mean that you will never marry. It just means you shouldn't marry now.

As for church & religion ... I'm wondering if you need to look for a different denomination. I imagine you'll have to play Goldilocks for a while more before you find the place that's "just right" for you.

I was raised in the Disciples of Christ church & I get the impression that it's very welcoming. A DoC minister married me and Sheff even though Sheff isn't a member of the Disciples of Christ church (he was raised a Quaker). Also, my mom's best friend regularly attended our church every Sunday, worked in the church office, and ran the music for every Sunday service, but her husband stayed home (he came for Easter & Xmas services only). As far as I know, she never received any grief about it. It was unfortunate for her I imagine, but everyone just seemed happy to have her there, no matter who sat next to her in the pew. So there really are churches out there that are more welcoming to people in your current situation. Some individual congregations may be more flexible than others, though. Again, you'll have to shop around to find a place that's right for you.
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tankgirl
post Mar 14 2009, 10:51 PM
Post #575


Hardcore BUSTie
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(((pugs))) I hope you 2 find you path. I 'm sorry that you are struggling with this. I know how it feels and wish I had constructive advice to give you but I don't. I just hope you are well.
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LoveMyPugs
post Mar 14 2009, 10:12 PM
Post #576







deleted...
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purplestain
post Mar 14 2009, 07:27 PM
Post #577


BUSTie
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Posts: 43
From: California


(((((jupiteregg)))))
I know just what you mean when you say you want to talk to her about it to help. When your SO is your closest friend, they're the one you automatically confide in and complain to, and when they want time away from you that just fucks everything up, because then who are you supposed to talk to about it when no one understands better than them? Conclusion: LAME

PS sorry if this is not at all helpful
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roseviolet
post Mar 14 2009, 11:48 AM
Post #578


Pacifism kicks ass!
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((((((((((((((((jupiteregg))))))))))))))))))))))))
Loving someone - whether they return the favor or not - does not make you a bad feminist. As for strength, none of us can be strong all the time. That's especially true when nursing a broken heart.

Kitten, I've never heard of that book before, but it looks like a life saver.
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jupiteregg
post Mar 14 2009, 11:39 AM
Post #579


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From: Colorado


Today is a bad day. Just when I think I'll be ok everything crashes down. I finally fell asleep without any drugs and then had nightmare after nightmare. i dreamed I found a bunch of tropical fish and everyone one I touched died. Then I thought I had forgotten to feed my horses for weeks. Meanwhile, I'm chasing my partner around this abandoned building begging her not to leave me. Woke up with a panic attack and sent some stupid texts to the ex. ex... that sounds so weird. I wish my bed wasn't empty. I feel so weak and pathetic. I used to be such a strong, independent feminist. I could have never imagined what it would feel like to have someone tell you they don't love you anymore. fuck.
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Persiflager
post Mar 12 2009, 01:29 PM
Post #580


Hardcore BUSTie
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((jupiteregg)) and ((zoya))

A couple of links for ghosting on why it's hard to leave an abusive relationship: Linky 1 and Linky 2.



--------------------
“Logic is the art of going wrong with confidence.”
Morris Kline (mathematician, author) 1908-1992
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