[koffeewitch]

Wow. I 'm an average cup size and I fail both ways. I'm not big enough to hold the pencil securely nor am I firm enough to keep the pencil from sticking some.

Recently I was watching a Japanese historical film about two women, a mother-in-law and her 20 year old daughter-in-law. There is a scene in the film where both women are positioned next to one another, both with their robes open and bare breasts displayed because of the heat. After the film ended, I rewatched while listening to the director's comments. In that scene he was making a statement using the actresses breasts. The younger woman still had rounder breasts (representing her voracious sexuality) and the older woman (whose breasts were beginning to sag) of course represented a waning sexuality. All these descriptions of breasts and sexual voracity are the directors, not mine.
Up until watching the commentated version, the only thing I had noticed was the beauty in the different shapes of the two women's breasts. I had thought the older woman lovely, like a sycamore tree in autumn. It took a man's perspective to suddenly shift my point of view and even apply it to my own (now increasingly flawed) body.

[strongirl]

Edie, your insight about the pencil test is so dead-on. It's like this perfect reflection of how pretty much everyone has self-doubt and insecurity about their body. Pencil falls? You flunk. Pencil stays? You flunk. Stupid pencil.

I agree re. Lily Allen! Love her, her cute tits, and her bad-ass 'tude.

And yes, Karategrrl, that term "breast buds" has a bit of a squirm factor for me, too.

[edie52]

Also, I've been enjoying Lily Allen's frequent nudity of late. She has small-ish breasts (definitely bigger than mine) on a figure that's not as waifish as some of the other small celebs (like Keira). I don't have anything against waifs, but I like diversity. She looks cute and natural.

Lily
Allen

Google will turn up many more results for anyone who wants to see more of Lily's boobs. FYI.

[edie52]

Karategrrl, also on the pencil test- we've talked about it here before but I think it's worth repeating- remember when we were all reminiscing about how we had woefully failed the pencil test, and then some of the large-breasted busties said that they also thought they had failed it, because the pencil stayed in place (they thought it was a test for sagginess, rather than just needing a bra)? I thought it was revealing that most of us, regardless of size, assumed we had failed because we were feeling insecure or unsure about our developing bodies.

I really need new bras, and I'm dreading going shopping. I always wear the same 2 bras, and they've lost a lot of elasticity and are thisclose to falling apart. The Urban Outfitters in my city doesn't sell bras anymore (where I got those 2). I used to wear CK but I haven't found any by them that fit properly in the past few years (remember the ones that came in a box? those were the greatest). And last time I went to a big department store asking if they carried AA, the lady smirked and told me to go to the girls' section. Also, I don't want to order online. Gah.

[karategrrl]

Um, yeah, the Tanner stages are a huge generalization. I remember when I was a teen there was a bra manufacturer (Bali, I think) that for awhile had this "revolutionary" sizing thing, where cup sizes were indicated by a picture. Reminds me of the "Tanner stages" pics. I remember looking in the mirror, perplexed b/c I couldn't "match up" to any of their sizes. Ah, the confusion of adolescence. (BTW, does anyone else find the term "breast buds" offensive? Makes me go "Ick.")

I have no under-fold, either. I've said this before but will repeat for the newer sistahs--remember that thing about the "pencil test?" Like, supposedly, you need a bra if you put a pencil under your breast and it stays there. When I did that as a teen, it fell right down. I thought it was supposed to stay there by some power of magic, not the weight of the boob hanging down. Years later I had an "aha" moment and got the joke.

BTW, when I shared the above over lunch with co-workers, my large-breasted co-worker said her college friends in her dorm would challenge her to see how many pencils, pens, books, wallets, etc. she could hold under her breasts. Too funny!!! Ah, fun with your breasts....

[strongirl]

I'm not an expert but the Tanner stage info I've read has made a point of saying that the stages have nothing to do with how much fat tissue surrounds the nipple. It's the changes in the nipple and aereola that indicate the Tanner stage, which makes sense since it is the body preparing to be able to nurse a baby which has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of surrounding fat. I think I've said in here before that my little 34A's produced enough milk to nurse an empire! I wonder if these teachers are misusing the whole concept for some perverted reason.

While I was typing this I just saw Angie's post on the topic. That too! So much for Tanner.

Unrelated - Crinoline, I hope you still check in here - I may have already done this but I need to thank you for turning me on to FreePeople clothing. I've scored some hot stuff and now I've gotten 2 catalogs in the mail - they're works of art, I must say. One arrived today and I'm drooling over it - page after page of way cool clothes and gorgeous girls...and every single model looks to be an A or AA cup! Hot hot hot! Also "best use of a cute guy as an accessory"!

[nbdx0645]

Buttercups, I'd say my left breast is a 2 and my right is a 3. The bottoms of my breasts are slightly fuller than the top, but I don't have a fold at all. It's a very smooth, gradual transition from ribcage, breast tissue, nipple, to collarbone. I think that it would be better to teach the Tanner stages as guidelines. Women who are very small can still produce milk and complete all stages of breast development, even if they don't have nipples or breasts that resemble the Tanner Stage 5.

I used to hope that there was something wrong with me, and the doctors could say, "Oh! You need more of X, Y, Z" and I'd be "fixed" to have full breasts. I try to imagine what my life would be like if I had larger breasts (let's say, a B or a C.) Would I become a superhero? Would I finally be able to do all the things I feel like I can't do? How would I be perceived, then? And how would the women who have very small breasts...view me?

[angie_21]

buttercups, I've never heard of the tanner stages before, but after looking them up just now I can tell you that you are being taught some pretty out-dated material. Jebus.

Women's breasts do go through stages of development, but the types described in the tanner stages are kind of irrelevant, it's less about outward appearance and more about the tissue below. Women's breasts go through a secondary stage of development during pregnancy (old-fashioned dumbasses call this reaching full maturity, btw.. because if you don't have kids, you never fully mature. kiss my ass), and they change again after menopause. Hormonal BC and menopause treatments all affect your breast tissue too, obviously. Some people's breasts will go through many of the variations from the tanner stages (at least the ones I read just now) all in a single menstrual cycle!

But anyways, ignore the Tanner stages thing. Its a huge overgeneralization, first of all, secondly, it assumes that your breasts stop changing after puberty, and thirdly, I imagine its modelled (just like everything in a bad biology textbook) on a small population of causian patients, with the results being simplified and idealized to look scientific and clean. nuff said.

[treehugger]

I am SO late to this conversation-but I don't have computer access at work.

nbdx0645, OMG! I feel nothing but disgust for the fact that your mother encouraged such body shame in you!

*just shaking my head.....*

buttercups, the Tanner stages used to get to me too. I used to wonder when I'd get to stage three. More so when I was in high school, I have to admit.

I was born in a strange position-my mom was in her middle forties when I was born (I was TOTALLY an oops child) and so, when I was a teenqager, mom was the age of most of my friend's grandparents, so I felt too distant from her to even talk to her about body-image stuff. She had "old lady boobs" when I was a teenager. (sorry)

***I just realized I probably have not said anything that helps anybody....***

Just commiserating, I guess. ((((small busties))))

In other news, I may soon reach the bra size 40 A! I'm a 38 B now but the band size is getting tight. It's weird, but I don't feel like there's that much extra padding. It's like my rib cage is expanding or something. Anyway, every time I go up a band size I go down a cup size. Yay me....

[buttercups]

Ok not to get off topic, but can I just say one thing that really reallyyyyyy gets to me is the Tanner stages. Every semester in one of my medical classes they pull out these damn Tanner stages and say "this is the development of a mature woman" blah blah. Umm...I'm in my mid-twenties and I'm at like a Tanner stage 2- what the hell does that say about me? That I didn't develop normally bc my breasts didn't follow this exact prototype? I mean this is the shit they're teaching physicians, and not once do the professors ever mention that maybe, just maybe, someones breasts may not get to be this huge and they are still fully developed and mature. It just also triggers me and makes me feel so bad like I must be an infantile child bc I didn't reach tanner stage 5. Who the hell came up with this crap and does this mean I'm not normal bc my breasts aren't this big and they don't overlap the skin on my chest at all! I have no fold under my tiny breasts, there never has been one and i doubt there ever will be one, but apparently thats what my breast is supposed to look like if i am fully developed. can someone explain this to me please? i just dont get why we use tanner stages- am i really supposed to classify grown women who might come into my office looking like me as not fully developed??

[karategrrl]

Yeah, I have to say my mom and I have had our ups and downs but I am feeling pretty grateful right now for the way she responded when I was a teenager bemoaning my lack of breast development. She laughed and said "Males like breasts, period, regardless of size. You'll see!" with a wink.

That is wicked cool.

[angie_21]

My mom was also naturally curvy, and I always assumed I would grow up to look like her. Her approach wasn't necessarily supportive, but it did the job. If I ever complained about how I looked, she got almost angry and would snap, "If you don't realize how lucky you are to look the way you do, you're just being silly. So many women want to have a figure like that, and when you're 40 you'll wish you still did, too." lol I'm only 25 and already her words are coming true.

[strongirl]

Yeah, I have to say my mom and I have had our ups and downs but I am feeling pretty grateful right now for the way she responded when I was a teenager bemoaning my lack of breast development. She laughed and said "Males like breasts, period, regardless of size. You'll see!" with a wink. I think that set me up to expect positive experiences and that indeed was what I got.

She herself is very busty, as were her mom and sisters, but during the sixties and seventies while I was growing up that body type was not in style - big breasts, hips and thighs - so they were always sighing over how beautiful and perfect they thought I was, since I was slender and petite. It made me sad that they were made to feel bad about being fat. But I am feeling so much gratitude right now for all the kind and complimentary things they said about my body. I realize after reading this forum how different and awful it can be.

[Aithinne]

My mom is kind of the opposite of buttercups and nbdx... She's very supportive and open, but I didn't feel comfortable talking to her even with her being so great. Idk, I felt ashamed that I didn't have perfect self esteem and that I was agonizing over something so trivial in the grand scheme of the world. I felt stupid to feel down on myself, it seemed like going to my mom and/or dad and telling them how I was insecure about my boobs/lack of curves was so dumb that I just didn't say anything. I never felt comfortable with telling them my deeper feelings or being vulnerable because there was much more at stake if my family rejected me than some joe schmo off the street. Still though, hearing about stories of unsupportive mothers and family members makes me grateful for the family I have, even if I have a hard time connecting with them.

[Allison-Shine]

Discussing or dealing with your body issues among family members can be difficult, even if you have a mother who is caring and supportive like mine was.

I got the "short end of the stick" in the height, curves and breast area among my mom, younger sister and other relatives. It was not easy thing to experience, witness or talk about. But when it is your own blood cutting you open and putting salt in your wounds, that's not just low, its downright wrong like in nbdx0645's case.

Fortunately my mom has been great with me but its not always easy to talk about or share such experiences with her, even though I am a woman now in my 20s and have experienced some recent changes to my body (all good mind you).

My 16 year old sister up until now had been the opposite. She was the one who would point out my shortcomings and tease. But I learned to understand that she was simply doing that due to immaturity and competition (sibling rivalry). She is a hell of a lot better now because she had done some mentally growing up, her mental maturity is finally catching up with her body, she is acting more like a grown woman instead of just physically being one. She sincerley compliments me on how I look now and is less looking at me as an older inferior version on our Mother's daughter as much as she used to. But the competition between us still surfaces from time to time.

[Aithinne]

Holy crap, ladies, the mean-mom shit is really horrible. nbdx0645, I agree with what someone else here said (sorry, I forget who) about how you have to consider the inner hell your mom must live with and consider that in order to release your own hurt feelings. Don't get me wrong--the things she'd said are HORRIBLE, and what you and buttercups have had to deal with from your own moms is just shameful--emotional abusive for sure. Your moms obviously have a lot of inner demons and they somehow feel that unleashing some of those little fuckers on you will somehow lessen their own pain/insecurities. I don't condone their behavior but I do feel sorry for anyone who feels so bad about themselves they're willing to chip away at their own child to "gain" nothing more than a fleeting feeling of superiority. What shines though to me, though, is how amazing you two are to rise above that mindset, fight it, work hard to love yourselves "as-is," and also have the courage to reach out and find support (like our little online community) when you need it. I have come to the conclusion that some of the best things we learn from our parents is how NOT to be.

Amen sister. Couldn't have said it more perfectly.

[koffeewitch]

I wanted to jump in on the "more A cups out there than is realized" conversation. I'm probably older than a lot of you guys...I've been wearing a bra for about 25+ years. I feel like now it is extremely difficult to find un-padded bras other than sport bras. I really feel it didn't used to be this drastic...that practically ALL the "fashion" bras are padded or push-ups.

[karategrrl]

OMG, I don't check the board for a few days, and all hell breaks loose!

Holy crap, ladies, the mean-mom shit is really horrible. nbdx0645, I agree with what someone else here said (sorry, I forget who) about how you have to consider the inner hell your mom must live with and consider that in order to release your own hurt feelings. Don't get me wrong--the things she'd said are HORRIBLE, and what you and buttercups have had to deal with from your own moms is just shameful--emotional abusive for sure. Your moms obviously have a lot of inner demons and they somehow feel that unleashing some of those little fuckers on you will somehow lessen their own pain/insecurities. I don't condone their behavior but I do feel sorry for anyone who feels so bad about themselves they're willing to chip away at their own child to "gain" nothing more than a fleeting feeling of superiority. What shines though to me, though, is how amazing you two are to rise above that mindset, fight it, work hard to love yourselves "as-is," and also have the courage to reach out and find support (like our little online community) when you need it. I have come to the conclusion that some of the best things we learn from our parents is how NOT to be.

I'm actually starting to think that way more people have A or smaller breasts than I thought...I think theres just a lot of well hidden A-cups walking around.

I think so, too, starship. I think our representation just on this board is probably a microcosm of what's really out there.

[starship]

I concur with everyone else on the 'wow' ndbx. It was great to read about someone else with an unsupportive mother but who still has such a positive outlook, really inspiring:). Hope you stick around and don't go back to lurking. My mum tells me not to wear certain things too. Like a few days ago we went shopping and i tried on a top i really liked that was quite low but not insanely. She told me it looked awful because it made me 'look really flat'. I had a push up bra on and didnt look half as flat as im capable of! Didnt buy it because i knew she'd make little comments every time i wore it. She also sells some stuff online sometimes and always asks me to 'model' the clothes for the pictures. But whenever she asks me she always says things like 'go and get your bra on then (as in a padded one) before i take the pictures' Or if im feeling crappy (because of her comments) and dont want to she'll try and convince me with so-called encouragement like 'dont be silly, put some chicken fillets in and itll look great'. as though nothing could look good on me the way i am and everythings better with boobs. And worse, if something doesnt suit/fit me she'll say how its a shame we couldnt get *insert name of one of my far bustier cousins here* to wear it because 'their figure wouldve looked great in it' or more bluntly 'she's got big boobs'. I'm so glad that she never had the money to buy breast implants like your mother because I seriously would have found it unbearable. Even when she was slim and younger she had bigger boobs than me (full A/small B whereas Im a AA) but I think she mustve had issues with them, especially as her 2younger sisters were more well-endowed. But I just cant get my head round why mothers who've been through this themselves arent more supportive or understanding of their daughters. I can't imagine saying any of these things if I ever have a daughter of my own, infact i'd go out of my way to enforce the kind of messages I've gotten from this board and make sure she doesnt feel this way. I just don't get it. She can't get her head around the idea that even if I had all the money in the world I would not have a boobjob and that I don't look up to women with fake boobs as having some amazing body that i should aspire to.
I'm actually starting to think that way more people have A or smaller breasts than I thought. If you look at amature porn-type sites then theres always way more smaller ladies than if you look at the professional stuff/general advertising etc. And the fact that so many people are having breast enlargement/buying A-cup padded bras shows that its not just some tiny minority out there. I think theres just a lot of well hidden A-cups walking around. I know a lot more people have bigger cup sizes nowadays, but they also have the bigger band sizes to match. Surely Skinny women with more than a C-cup are the minority- not ones with AA/A/Bs :S

[angie_21]

oh wow, nbdx. Your mom sounds like my boyfriend's ex-wife's mother., and that would indeed make her a super-hag. You can't believe how glad it makes me to hear that you overcame her craziness and we smart enough to do the research before getting implants! Thank you for sharing your story with us. Its only by people sharing these kinds of stories that people can understand why it is that small breasts can cause the emotional issues that we sometimes see on this board.

I don't know if I can say anything else... I can't believe you escaped this situation without being completely crazy, you are very strong, and I am so happy to hear that you are wanting to talk here and that we've been able to help you. You are probably right about your mom, what she did wasn't intentionally abusive, she was too busy being wrapped up in her own little world to understand or care how it affected you. It IS very sad that her life is so consumed by her own body, and I wonder what her relationship with her mother might have been like? You do have the right to be angry, but I hope that realising that she had her reasons, however crazy they are, can help you experience the anger but then let go of it, too.. if that doesn't sound too hippy-ish for you!

I'm a 36 A or AA as well (depends on the brand, and really also on how much water I'm retaining at the time) and you'd only see me really looking like an A-cup in public about half of the time. I'm working on doing it more often, but I always struggle with the fact that I can't by the clothes I want without padding to make them fit right. BUT my new fave swimsuit is completely un-padded, so I do "represent" at the beach lol