[karategrrl]

Hi ladies, forgive me if anyone's already mentioned this, but I just discovered swimwear from the Gap that has a lot of small-bust-flattering varieties of tops, and is also sold by bra size. I can't believe this is in a 36A, for example:

http://www.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=3...&pid=625484

Here are more styles:
http://www.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=...p;clink=1062460

And not all are padded, either!! And they're not crazy-expensive.

Enjoy swimwear shopping!

[karategrrl]

lightchested, I had "Dead or Alive" stuck in my head all day yesterday. Thanks a lot!!! HAHAHAHA!

[Aithinne]

I'm not surprised that we have so many topics to discuss on this small-breast forum. Since it is connected with feelings of femininity, desire, attraction, etc., I can see how the struggle or success in having small boobies can trickle into many other important areas of life. I like coming here because when I'm feeling down, you ladies slap me upside the head and show me how dumb I'm being (in a nice way, of course).. lol.

[Allison-Shine]

Hey ladies, forgive me for being off topic, but I stumbled on this site and had to talk about it, even though I think I've ranted about it before, it's still a topic that raises my hackles...

http://www.progressiveu.org/230819-skinny-v-curvy-girls
Found this website while surfing the net and loved it, agreed with a lot of it, except for the part where the author says that larger women don't ever get picked on. A lot of the comments on the article at the bottom were talking about how it is unequivocally more difficult to be a curvy woman than a naturally thin woman, but I don't know if that statement is true. We all have different experiences. For one woman (and I know from personal experience), being thin can be just as big of a confidence kill as being curvy would be for a larger woman. They are flip sides of the size coin, but I disagree that the two experiences can be compared. Everyone is different- what isn't a big deal for one person may be a huge deal to another.

At least curvy women are seen as womanly and feminine! Naturally thin and also small breasted women often feel like they can't claim a huge portion of their identity: being a woman. And I'm sorry, If you really think about it, feeling like a pubescent and not a woman, even though you are one, can be just as damaging as feeling like you aren't accepted for being larger. Both sides can feel like they will never be wanted and loved. The grass is NOT always greener.

And that is my rant for the day.

I know where you are coming from Aithinne...

As a slender, smaller-busted woman, I have been dealing with these issues for the past several years. It did not help matters much when my teenage sis (i'm now 23, shes 16) developed way beyond what I physically have (and this occurred 2-3 years ago). I'm not just talking breasts, but height and the curves that go along with what is considered "womanly and feminine".

Physically, I can blend in with 14-17 year old girls. It is good to look younger than your years but not to the point of where you are still thought of by many as a girl and not a woman. Its staggering to me sometimes how a girl can have an woman's body and vice-versa.

[karategrrl]

They give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but once you establish yourself as a bad (or God forbid forgetful) tipper, your dancing becomes more and more "challenged" by songs that sound more like funeral dirges than whatever type of music you're actually into. To this day when I hear Bon Jovi's "Dead or Alive", I have a knee-jerk reaction to opt for "dead" (try figuring out how to "dance" to that song!), but then, thankfully, remember that I now have the power to turn that song OFF!

Bwahahaha!! You are so totally cracking me up!!

But seriously, Omigod. Ridiculous, having to pay off all those people for the "honor" of dancing nekkid/topless. <sigh.> But yeah, after that $100 (or whatever it is now) everything you made was gravy. And, as much as I don't agree with stripping, I admit I sure as hell have had my moments (brief ones, yes, but moments nonetheless) where I actually considered it. For mad money, who wouldn't?

Also, strippers also have to buy all their own outfits, shoes, accessories, implants (if they choose to get them) etc. They're tax deductions, but still, moulah out of your pocket up front. Yow.


Change of topic:
I was thinking this morning how amazing this forum is--okay, technically, it's the "small breast support group" but the breast size issue has connected to so many other issues/topics, and everyone has so many interesting insights. Though I may not always agree with others' opinions, I have a fascination with learning others' opinions. Even if don't change my mind, I really enjoy understanding why people feel the way they do.

[lightchested]

I wasn't afraid of being fired, mainly because, at least in the city I live/worked, strippers pay the establishment for the "right" to work there. I know this sounds crazy, but it's true. The "classier" the place, the higher the required tip-out. One fee goes to "the house" for providing a venue for the woman to "perform". (It's not just you...I'm gagging as I write this.) Then there is a mandatory tip to the DJ. I learned the hard way not to scrimp on this one: DJ's will play the exact songs you want when you're on stage IF you've been good to them. They give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but once you establish yourself as a bad (or God forbid forgetful) tipper, your dancing becomes more and more "challenged" by songs that sound more like funeral dirges than whatever type of music you're actually into. To this day when I hear Bon Jovi's "Dead or Alive", I have a knee-jerk reaction to opt for "dead" (try figuring out how to "dance" to that song!), but then, thankfully, remember that I now have the power to turn that song OFF!

Those are the two only fees you generally need to pay in a crappy bar. I don't know the going rates today, but about ten years ago, the house would charge between $60-$80, and you'd stay in good with a DJ if you gave him about $20-$30. And you have to pay the guy who walks you to your car. I forget what they call that guy. He gets about $5. He opens your car door if he's gunning for a tenner, but if he eventually figures out you're only good for five, he stops opening your door.

So the first hundred dollars a stripper makes per shift is for the "right to work there". It was always a great feeling when you realized you were out of the red, and any money you made for the rest of your shift, you'd get to take home. Yes, this is disgusting.

In "nicer" "establishments" (Someone made the comment earlier, and I agree, that "gentlemen's club" is an oxymoron. Even the bare word "establishment" is sickeningly sugar coated in my opinion.) But anyway, in nicer "establishments", you also have to pay a coat check girl (always a girl), and an agent that is thrust upon you. (Yes, an agent. Please.) If you do not come with your own agent, your fine establishment will supply one for you. LIke a court appointed attourney. An expensive salacious one.

[karategrrl]

Hey angie_21, hope it didn't come across that I was having issue with what you said--I wasn't. And I value yours and everyone's opinions here.

I should clarify that I haven't arrived at my feelings about porn/strip clubs/etc. from growing up Mormon or being frigid or anything (nothing against Mormons). Rather, I've gone through all that shit with many partners, and I've seen it--over and over--take on a pattern where it intensifies: you start with magazines but at some point they aren't enough--you need moving pictures and sound--so it goes up a level to porn movies. Then eventually that's not enough so it evolves into strip clubs b/c the guy has to have a real woman he can interact with. Then a "hands-off" woman isn't enough, so it goes a step further into cheating/threesomes/prostitutes etc. I was, at one time, pretty far off the deep end with all that shit with one partner in particular. I finally reached the point where I realized it had totally destroyed any semblance of trust. I tried like hell to get the trust back and on some level I feel he did want things to go back to the very loving, monogamous way they had once been, but it was too late. You simply cannot go backwards with some things.

Because I've experienced this over and over I'd be an idiot not to take note. I finally got married--something I'd always been somewhat afraid of--and I sure as shit am not willing to even take that kind of chance with my marriage. I care too much.

Marriage can be challenging enough without men saying it "ties them down" or there being so many ways men can quickly and easily get their nut off (sans wife) via cyberspace/strip clubs, etc. Marriage is supported economically in this country (U.S). but definitely not socially.

[angie_21]

Total double standard. My personal feeling, which I am entitled to, is that such places are a total slap in the face to marriage and encourage cheating and behavior that is disrespectful to women--the patrons' wives and the dancers.

* Much as people would like to think this isn't "sex," this is a sexual act called "frottage."

I just want to clarify that I was definitely not defending anyones actions by anything I said. I just taking a guess at might be what is going through their minds, and possibly explaining why they are there. I tried to do it without passing judgement, but my own opinion was expressed at the end where I stated that I do consider it cheating and would not stand for it if my SO took part in any activities at a strip club. I am not sure if this was clear or not. Why other women do stand for it boggles the mind. Why some men think it's alright to cheat, well, there are probably hundreds of reasons they use to justify it to themselves.

My understanding is that many strip clubs are a legally condoned place of prostitution, whether it involves actual intercourse in the private rooms or "just" sexal touching. And many probably aren't. But men and women both are never going to stop wanting sex, its one of our most basic and instinctive needs. Where do you draw the line between consentual sexual contact, with added benefits for the woman, and objectification and exploitation? It gets confusing because often what is happening is all of these things at once. There are obvious examples, if anyone is physically hurt or things become nonconsentual, but how do you define consent, anyways? Agreeing to do something is far different than genuinely wanting to.

I seriously doubt most men would really be alright with anyone doing any of that to their wives in any other social situation--whether the wife was paying for it or not.

In his fantasy world, mine would absolutely love it. Who knows what he would think in reality.

[karategrrl]

Were you afraid you would get fired for scaring away the customers?

I was also curious--did any patrons complain? did management say anything to you?

for a lot of men it is an acceptable form of "cheating" once they have been tied down to their wives

I think a lot of men do want to marry the smart, capable, and loving woman, but of course also want sexual gratification

I do have issue with these mindsets. If a man considers marriage as being "tied down," he has no business doing it in the first place. If he isn't getting sexual gratification within his marriage, that's a problem that should be addressed. (And if he can't feel "gratified" without objectifying a female stranger, he needs therapy.)

Go ahead and strike me down, but I feel so strongly on this topic I can't NOT comment. Many men feel they have a need or right to "get something" outside of marriage, and strip clubs provide just the right way for them to get it, since it's technically not "cheating" (they believe) unless they actually complete a sex act with one of the girls.

Not all strippers--but many--stick their breasts in the guys faces and allow the men to suck them; they rub the guy's dick through his pants (with her hand or by straddling him*); they touch him all over and he touches them all over. Other any other circumstances it would be wrong but because the guy is paying for it, it somehow becomes okay? I seriously doubt most men would really be alright with anyone doing any of that to their wives in any other social situation--whether the wife was paying for it or not. Total double standard. My personal feeling, which I am entitled to, is that such places are a total slap in the face to marriage and encourage cheating and behavior that is disrespectful to women--the patrons' wives and the dancers.

* Much as people would like to think this isn't "sex," this is a sexual act called "frottage."

[honeybunch]

But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. ...They would look away the whole time.

God please send me that guy!

[angie_21]

Lightchested, you could probably get funding to write that as an anthropological study! It is so silly that we hide these things away, when so many women and men are a part of this industry, and it clearly does play a big role in our society. I think it is of huge importance to understanding martial relationships, women's rights, and basic human needs for love, sex, and affection (which are all tied together). You are clearly a strong person to actually have been able to say these things to the men there. Were you afraid you would get fired for scaring away the customers?

I think it is unfair to judge men for being there. Especially the lonely ones you talk about. As far as the married men, I am not at all surprised, and I think there are a lot of factors. one being that for a lot of men it is an acceptable form of "cheating" once they have been tied down to their wives, sometimes they don't even have to keep it a secret! But another is the old-fashioned idea of "lady on your arm but a slut in your bed." Getting into some huge stereotypes here... but I think a lot of men do want to marry the smart, capable, and loving woman, but of course also want sexual gratification, and maybe they think they can't respect their wives if they objectify them the way they do strippers, maybe sometimes their wives think the same thing. I have no problem with my SO objectifying me, so long as he respects me too, but sadly, sometimes it takes a pretty open mind to be able to combine these 2 things, or at least, it sure does where I come from... Maybe also their wives are too tired from raising children all day to be able to provide the gratification they want, which is where I start thinking, this is bullsh*t.

<sigh.> My dream man. They DO exist.

They do exist, I live with one of them. My SO has had to go to bikini bars and strip clubs occasionally while on the road for work (what kind of assholes meet up at the strip club after a days' work to socialize with their co-workers? grr), bachelor parties, etc. Some small-town places in Alberta, they throw dollar coins at the girls, actually hitting them, and they have to pick them up off the floor after the dance. It is horrible, it made him feel sick, and he hates going to those kinds of places. He loves women, loves womens' bodies, and thinks they should be loved and respected at all times. The idea of having to pay for a woman's atention makes him pretty sad, and he doesn't understand why some men actually seem to be proud that this is the only way they can get a girl to look at them. He would never get a lapdance and knows I would consider it cheating (unless we were in vegas and I was there lol... but we would have to know somehow that we were at a place where the girls were not being mistreated so I dunno if that will be happening) Anyways, I am a lucky girl.

[karategrrl]

forgot to mention before--
lightchested, I have to fess up and say that I was much more willing to hear you out about the stripping because:

1. I already knew through your posts that you were very intelligent and already had made lots of good contributions
2. Your post was so brutally honest and you made no excuses
3. Your motivation to work as a stripper was to "blow it out from the inside" and even as you did it you asked thought-provoking questions of the men, didn't force the shy ones into dances, etc. Even in the midst of it, you showed class.

I must admit I wouldn't have been so open to what you had to say otherwise.

[karategrrl]

The ones in groups tend to be boisterous and misogynistic.

I HAAAAAATE that behavior. That has to be one of the earliest things I ever learned--that men act like dickheads in groups. It's like their collective IQ goes down as their numbers go up. Early on, I learned to AVOID like the plague men in groups if I wanted to be left alone and not harassed.

But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. ...They would look away the whole time.

<sigh.> My dream man. They DO exist.

[neurotic.nelly]

Well, I feel like the odd woman standing out of the crowd here. I am a pro-sex, pro-sex industry feminist. Not that anyone here does, but, I do not hate men, and do not do a lot of male bashing, as I believe that as women, we all have our own demons or skeletons or psychology to deal with if anything in this world is going to change. /end rant.

I am, however, interested in hearing more from lightchested, it sounds like it is going to be good! I'll have the popcorn ready.

I became briefly acquainted with a stripper who once was a teacher and was going back to school for her master's degree, so she stripped to pay for school. She was a woman of privilege on almost every level. The thing about her that I found confusing was that she seemed to take her job home with her. Like she always seemed to be "on" if you get my drift. It was weird.

[lightchested]

I'm stunned. I was so afraid everyone was going to reject me if I posted that.

Thank you so much. I never tell anyone. Thank you.

I will answer everyone's questions thoroughly, but can't do it tonight. I have to wake up in about four hours so I can go train a bunch of people on a software application I don't myself understand. How do I get myself in to these things? (I did it to bail out my boss's boss, who forgot this meeting was tomorrow, and has no agenda, and was panicked, so I offered to train on this product. I warned him my training won't be "polished". That's an understatement. But I ramble.)

I am so blown away by the responses. Thank you so much.

A phrase that anarch used summed up the majority of my customers: "jaw-dropping self-esteem problems".

I also want to respond quickly to the married man thing. I was shocked that that was shocking! But I guess I shouldn't be, because it shocked me when I started doing it. I thought they'd "forgotten", and left their wedding ring on. But then they'd brag about their wife to me! (some of them) Like, if you think you're wife's so great, what the HELL are you doing HERE??? I agree COMPLETELY with what Aithinne wrote about it being cheating. I'm sorry, but I just do. The betrayal to me, when a guy does that to me (and they have) is so deep that I almost go into a denial when it happens. In fact, that's what pushed me into that whole mess. But more on that later.

What I wanted to say now is there are two kinds of men there: groups and loners. The ones in groups tend to be boisterous and misogynistic. But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. What bugged the living crap out of me is when this type of guy's friends would force a lapdance on him, with him seriously protesting. I REFUSED to do it. I tried to defend these guys to their friends, and would tell other girls not to do it because he really didn't want one. I did as much as I could to protect them from their disgusting friends. It was like they were being tortured and it wasn't fair. They would look away the whole time. I don't want to think about that right now.

Okay, and then besides the groups are the loners. These are the ones I liked. They were looking for something on a psychological level...someone to listen to them...someone they could feel close to...and I know this is going to sound crazy, but someone who cared. So often I felt like a psychologist in that job. I know that sounds so warped. I gave marital advice, job advice (why the hell would someone take such advice from a stripper??? But I guess what I said made sense to them) I'm highly empathetic, and I like to believe I helped a lot of guys through some black feelings. The main one being loneliness.

Which brings me back to the married guys. They were lonely. They were married and they were lonely. Whether it was because they felt the wife used up all her attention on the kids (and they knew it was selfish of them, but still they felt neglected) or because she'd "changed" after they got married, it was like a wall went up, at least in their minds, between the guy and his spouse, and he felt like he couldn't open up to her anymore. But the guy would want the empathy of a woman, so ... voila... a stripper. Often guys said no to a lap dance, yet offered me a drink if I'd sit with him. I did. (I don't drink much, and I didn't then either, but I did enjoy the conversations) The guys were looking for empathy, and weren't getting it at home. That is the main thing. A caring, non-rushed ear that was entirely focused on them. For whatever reason, these married guys felt they could no longer get that from their wife.

So there you go.

I'll answer everything else tomorrow.

Oh, and karategrrl...I have so much to say on the men fearing us that I didn't want to try to jam it into this post. I'm tired, and there is a lot to say. We have a lot more power than we think. It was hard for me to bend my mind around, but I still get reminders of it, though I've not done this job for about nine years now. I don't know why, but men fear us. Mainly, above all else, they fear our rejection. And the rejection can take about a zillion forms..things we would not consider rejection at all. More on this tomorrow.

Thank you all so much. You are so great. Thank you for accepting me.

[neurotic.nelly]

Chiming in again here, tagging on anarch's coattails, there's this autobiographical account, Confessions of a video Vixen. This book provided a glimpse into a different yet similar world, giving a voice to a particular group of overtly objectified wymyns.

[anarch]

Yeah, lightchested, a book that would do for stripping what Jeannette Angell did for being a call girl. (Mind you, even though that book made it as obvious as possible that she was critiquing popular stereotypes of call girl work from the inside, and that most of the johns were complete pathetic fuckups with jaw-dropping self-esteem problems, there was still a stoopid-I-think-with-my-dick Amazon review that said something like "Read this book if you want to know how to really turn a man on"! Yowza, way to miss all of the author's points. Every one of them. None of it reads like erotica.)

[neurotic.nelly]

deleted... just because i don't feel comfortable having it here.

[KeraBear]

Hey, has anybody ever heard the Boob Fairy song by Deirdre Flint. It's great. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ctz5T7AHpc...feature=related

[KeraBear]

Lightchested, that was fantastic. Forget putting together a blog, you should write a book about your experiences!