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> What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
alligator
post Apr 29 2006, 10:49 PM
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Anarch: what kmp and tyger said. Also, saying that makes it sound like women are the only ones responsible for or capable of reducing chances of rape.

Well, hang on. I'm saying that in the context of it being understood that men have to do their part as well.

If a guy wants to tell women that, he has to step up to the plate too and say what HE does to reduce chances of rape – eg talk with guy friends about “How do I know for sure she's ok with it? How can I make sure I don't cross the line? How can I encourage other guys to do likewise?", and being willing to tell other guys “That's not cool” (like hoosierman78's crowd) when they're disrespecting women. Otherwise the effect is that he could come across as a hypocrite (not saying you personally are, but that's the impression that could be created, if you see where I'm coming from).

I avoid being a hypocrite on this issue the same way I do on any other matter of conduct; I hold myself to the same standards as others.

I have had such conversations as you mentioned with other men, although anyone in my circle of friends is a pretty low risk to women (or anyone) because I wouldn't associate with them otherwise.

My dad/uncle/elder cousins/etc never needed to have a "Now son, no means no" chat with me for the same reason they never had to warn me against eating aquarium gravel for breakfast. Alas, too many guys could've used just this kind of talk...
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kjhink
post Apr 29 2006, 04:44 PM
Post #1582


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From: St. Louis, MO


I think that one of the most effective tools to preventing acquaintance rape is teaching young men to ask, explicitly, “Do you want to do this?” or one of its variants. Although this would be especially useful with young, intimately inexperienced men who might not have done much interpreting of girls’/women’s signals, it would also be a good rule of thumb for older men who are with new partners. The wide variation in human sexual responses and proclivities being what it is, what reads as sexual submission in one partner might actually be ambivalence or discomfort in another.

Of course, hoosierman78’s solution of reading any possible hesitation as cause to back off serves the same purpose in the end. The only problem I foresee for some is that, unlike hoosierman78, they wouldn’t know hesitation if it hit them in the head. Take greenbean’s example. I absolutely thing that that guy was purposefully blowing off her very obvious signals, and that he very likely would have continued to do so. However, for the sake of argument, let’s assume for a moment that he was just a too drunk, too inexperienced guy with no idea that his level of aggression was out of line. If he had it ingrained in his head that sexual banter included the question of “Is this something you want?” then there could be no further misunderstanding.

Sadly, the people on this board are not representative of the world at large. Would that they were. While I think that for the most part most of the women here are good at articulating, more or less, what they do or don’t want, and that the men here are good at intelligently and sensitively interpreting the vibes their partners are giving off, I don’t think that these are skills necessarily present in the general populace.

The fact of the matter of the matter is that I do still know women who won’t explicitly say “I like you, but I’m not going to have sex with you tonight,” and those who do not utilize the street smarts that we’ve been talking about. That doesn’t mean that it’s their fault if they get raped. Good god, no. It does mean, though, that safety education needs to continue.

I strongly agree that as part of that going forward, though, we need to work to educate boys and men, too. Like pretty much every other poster here. :-)
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anarch
post Apr 29 2006, 03:58 PM
Post #1583


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hoosierman78: If I even got so much as a slight hesitation, I'd back it off a couple notches and would pretty well make her pounce me to take it any farther.

If more guys did that, we wouldn't have to have discussions like these! You sound like a total sweetheart.

Too bad more guys don't have fathers/friends like I do.

Yeah. We need more family and friends to talk about “rape” and “date rape”, and make it clear that you're gonna hurt if you do it. And talking about “ordinary guy crossing the line” situations too.

alligator: I don't think we're crossing the line into "blame the victim" territory by advising women to take certain precautions and develop street smarts.

what kmp and tyger said. Also, saying that makes it sound like women are the only ones responsible for or capable of reducing chances of rape. If a guy wants to tell women that, he has to step up to the plate too and say what HE does to reduce chances of rape – eg talk with guy friends about “How do I know for sure she's ok with it? How can I make sure I don't cross the line? How can I encourage other guys to do likewise?", and being willing to tell other guys “That's not cool” (like hoosierman78's crowd) when they're disrespecting women. Otherwise the effect is that he could come across as a hypocrite (not saying you personally are, but that's the impression that could be created, if you see where I'm coming from).

kmp: I would say that "men, stop endangering women," covers aquaintance rape too. If a man takes the steps that you suggest, then he is taking steps to lessen the chance that he will get out of control.

Agreed. Sorry, kmp, I was in a rush when i posted that and didn't think it through.

I kind of feel like a man knows when he's forcing someone, whether he says he didn't realize he was crossing a line or not. Is that totally off base?

I speculated about this on the other board, but I've got no idea if it's justified. I'm thinking about posting a similar question to AskMetafilter on Monday. If I do and get worthwhile responses, I'll post a link here.

tyger: i'm betting in some cases men keep telling themselves they aren't crossing a line so they can keep going

yeah, wishful thinking and horniness leading to complete obliviousness to body language or even explicit signs?

greenbean – reading your story made me feel shaky. I asked my husband about these issues and he said he thinks a lot of men get the impression that women are meek and need or even welcome coaxing along, or for the man to take the initiative, so maybe that's part of the reason that some guys keep pushing?
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greenbean
post Apr 29 2006, 12:16 PM
Post #1584


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Thats a good question, KMP. I've never been raped but I've been in uncomfortable situations, and the strangest one goes as follows:

I went away to college and when I came back home for the summer I went to a party with some high school friends. I ran into one of my guy friend's younger brother, (I was 19 and he was 18) and he had grown up to be real cute. Lets call him Joe. Joe and I made chit chat about punk rock and after a few drinks he confessed to always having a crush on me. I was flattered and we started to make out. This was in a room with other people and he started to try and pull me into a bedroom. I went with him into the hallway but I knew I didnt want to have sex so I didnt go all the way into the bedroom, but I kept kissing him in the hallway. He kept saying things like, "I worship you", "you are a goddess" and "you are true punk" words I would think I would like to hear but in this case it was starting to feel awkward. I started to pull away but he kept pulling me closer. I tried to lock eyes with a guy friend of mine and telepathically ask for help, but he didnt look at me.

Joe kept trying to pull me into the bedroom and I finally said no, and that I wanted to join the rest of the party. It was as if I didnt hear me because he kept grinning at me and kissing my neck and tugging at me. I was so confused because I liked kissing him, but my gut was telling me something was wrong. Once his grip felt less playful and more forceful, I used all my might to get out of his clutches and leave. He just kept grinning.

So yeah, I have no idea if he felt like he was being forceful or not, if he was too drunk to think straight (not an excuse) or if I just wasnt being clear enough. But it was one of the most awkward situations I've ever been through, especially since no one there realized anything was wrong.

I don't know what would have happened if I went in that bedroom with him. I'm getting a lump in my throat right now just thinking about "what if". The experience made me realize how hard it is send the message to guy that you want to make-out ONLY, because I guess some guys assume if you are comfortable making out, then you are down for everything and THEY SHOULD NEVER ASSUME THAT!


--------------------
I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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alligator
post Apr 29 2006, 12:21 AM
Post #1585


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Lastly, and this a question to anyone who wants to answer it. I kind of feel like a man knows when he's forcing someone, whether he says he didn't realize he was crossing a line or not. Is that totally off base?

Depends on the man. I do know guys who have been taken by surprise when their girlfriends/dates/etc said, "Hey, not so fast! I'm not ready yet" because they honestly thought both of them WERE ready.

That said, I cannot see how even the most clueless guy (me, for example) could be oblivious to a woman's clear, explicit expression of disapproval or discomfort.
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tyger
post Apr 28 2006, 09:15 PM
Post #1586


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kmp, i'm betting in some cases men keep telling themselves they aren't crossing a line so they can keep going, but i'm not a man, nor do i know any rapists personally, but i think many would have the mentality of 'i think i'm not doing anything wrong so i'm not'.

i agree completely with what anarch and kmp have said on this. it's not fair that i carry my 'rape alarm' keychain, a bottle of cheap perfume or bug spray, have extra keys on my keychain to poke out of my fist and walk the entire way around my car checking the floor and back seat before i get in, all out of fear of having a man attack me because he feels it's okay for him to do so (i know most men aren't rapists, i'm not trying to paint the gender with the same brush or anything, really). most men don't live in that kind of fear, doing things as simple as walking to their cars after class in the dark, or walking to the bus stop in the morning before the sun is up (days are REALLY short in the middle of winter where i live).

why can't the world just get to the point where 'she/he was asking for it' is a repulsive comment on a rape. it's a crime, where the perpatrator is at fault. it's not like our breasts send out subliminal messages that say 'have non-consensual sex with me'.
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kissmypineapple
post Apr 28 2006, 08:09 PM
Post #1587


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But Alligator, I can't think of a single woman on earth who doesn't (like Anarch said) walk to her car with her key poking out between fingers of a fisted hand. It's not enough to just say, women develop street smarts, because that's not the point. Just because I know not to ever put my drink down at a party, or to walk to my car alone, or to leave my door unlocked, etc. etc., doesn't mean it's right for me to live in fear of being raped. And when we constantly tell women that they need to wise up, or that they should know better, then that does open the door to blaming the victim.

Also, Anarch, I agree with your entire post, but I would say that "men, stop endangering women," covers aquaintance rape too. If a man takes the steps that you suggest, then he is taking steps to lessen the chance that he will get out of control.

Lastly, and this a question to anyone who wants to answer it. I kind of feel like a man knows when he's forcing someone, whether he says he didn't realize he was crossing a line or not. Is that totally off base?
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alligator
post Apr 28 2006, 12:09 PM
Post #1588


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When are people (outside of this board of course) going to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of men, and telling women to stop "putting themselves in dangerous situations" is a bandaid. How about, men, stop endangering women?

I agree. And to be fair, a lot of men do as well. If I beat up or raped some woman (girlfriend, friend, stranger, whatever) I'd run TO the cops because I'd be more afraid of what my male relatives and friends would do to me than going to jail.

That aside, I don't think we're crossing the line into "blame the victim" territory by advising women to take certain precautions and develop street smarts.
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hoosierman78
post Apr 28 2006, 12:07 PM
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It saddens me, no that's not right....pisses me off to see the way some men refuse to blame anyone but the woman who has been a victim of rape. It actually somewhat surprises me to read the amount of garbage these guys post in threads as well. When has no ever meant maybe?? Granted, I've lived my entire life in the Mid-West, and my friends and I were all taught by our parents to respect women, and treat them the way we'd want others to treat our mother or sister. Yes, we discussed our sex lives with each other, just as is done here by you busties, but I honestly can only recall one friend that bragged about talking his g/f into doing something. I also remember the beast that was our middle linebacker (and went on to play the same position in college) giving him a locker room lesson, so to speak, in how to treat women. Come to find out, she was glad she went ahead and did what he wanted to (as she greatly enjoyed it - her words, not mine), but he got the point we were making.

As for myself, before I was married I didn't ask if anything was ok like a play by play anouncer, but I also didn't push. I don't get the mentality of just because she's letting you feel her boobs, that means she's going to let you do anything you want. I don't get that. If I even got so much as a slight hesitation, I'd back it off a couple notches and would pretty well make her pounce me to take it any farther.

Besides, not that I have any desires to make a woman have sex with me, I'm also pretty damn confident in the fact that, had I done something like that while in high school or college, my father would have beaten me within an inch of my life. No, he is in no way an abusive person, he just feels very strongly in how men treat women. If I were to do it now, all the guys that I am friends with would beat me within an inch of my life. I guess I fall into NoHope's category of having a real incentive (other than I'm not an asshat rapist) to not force myself on a woman. Too bad more guys don't have fathers/friends like I do. There are definitely a lot out there that apparently need that incentive very much.
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alligator
post Apr 28 2006, 12:02 PM
Post #1590


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Ven,

Could be, could be. Given how wonky the DSM has become, the two might well be conflated in the next version.

My understanding of for-real Homophobia is that it's based on repressed doubts and fears about one's own sexuality. Misogynist violence feeds off this kind of inner demon, too, I suspect. My cousin the cop tells me that guys who (finally) get arrested for domestic violence are always going on about "women" this and "women" that. Some of them don't even complain about the actual women they assaulted.
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alligator
post Apr 28 2006, 11:58 AM
Post #1591


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Comment from the article that alligator posted:

"I'd think that the feminists had set these young girls up to be victims so the "cause" could use them as poster girls against male violence."

Yes thats right, we want women to be raped. Sheesh.


I think Anach posted that link. I do agree that the quoted statement is repulsive.
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anarch
post Apr 28 2006, 10:55 AM
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The point (mine and many other Busties'), Nohope, is that changing most peoples' frame of reference, currently fixated on the narrow mantra "to prevent rape it's up to individual women to be more careful", would ultimately pre-empt any need for creating female-only safe spaces.

Women can choose certain behaviours to reduce chances of rape happening, sure. We hear this all the time. Here's the part we rarely hear: Men could, men should (especially those who go around handing out advice to women on how to "prevent" rape), also choose certain behaviours to reduce chances of rape happening. Any man could if he really gave a damn, talk (in the same breath as "Women need to do...") about how he has responsibility for 1. examining his own behaviour 2. educating himself about rape myths and realities, 3. discussing with male (or female) friends or family members things like "How do I know for sure she's ok with it? How can I make sure I don't cross the line? How can I encourage other guys to do likewise?" and 4. calling out friends or family members who make casual comments ("Look at what she was wearing...she's a stripper...she slept around") or crack "jokes" ("No means maybe").

ok, maybe not all 4. I'd be quite happy if 15% of the men in that thread I linked talked about ONE of these things HE could do to reduce rape, while he was sermonizing about "Women should".

Imagine if just half of all the men we knew incorporated even two of these things into the regular way they live their lives and relate to their buddies, as vigilantly and constantly and automatically as we lock our doors, keep keys in our fists walking around after dark, keep hyperaware of our surroundings and possible dangers.

How about, men, stop endangering women?

Kissmypineapple, thanks for your "bandaid" comments which express what I was trying to. I would add that "stop endangering women" addresses stranger rape, but is not so effective (when talking to men) for acquaintance rape because I think the following comments from that thread I linked make good points too: "I believe it's possible for a respectable person to get caught up in their horniness and stop listening, or to try and push the boundaries; "come on, honey" or keep kissing or whatever. . . . I do think many rapists (date rapists, anyway) are just regular people who made a bad judgement, crossed a line, and wronged someone."

And "I think that discussions about personal responsbility and judgement would do more to further re-thinking rape than saying "don't do it, asshole" because most people don't think of themselves as an asshole and don't think themselves capable of doing it."
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kissmypineapple
post Apr 28 2006, 08:10 AM
Post #1593


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NoHope, do you really think the solution is to have female only bars? One of my big issues with that article was the insinuation that since we probably won't be able to change male behavior, women ought to just suck it up and not get drunk, not go party, b/c really, we ought to know better. And so...you know, rape is sort of our fault. And while we're not drinking or partying, we should probably cover up and stop flirting with men, b/c everyone knows that if you flirt, you're really just asking for it. When are people (outside of this board of course) going to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of men, and telling women to stop "putting themselves in dangerous situations" is a bandaid. How about, men, stop endangering women? And I think your much earlier point is absolutely true. There ought to be some equally life threatening incentive put forth for men, since some of them can't seem to come up with the motivation themselves. Ugh.
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venetia
post Apr 28 2006, 04:53 AM
Post #1594


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Alligator - I get it. Don't worry, I'm down with Jacques. Though, when you say "What they fear is really inside them." it sounds more like the Homosexual Panic murder defense...
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miss_jane
post Apr 28 2006, 02:12 AM
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Comment from the article that alligator posted:

"I'd think that the feminists had set these young girls up to be victims so the "cause" could use them as poster girls against male violence."

Yes thats right, we want women to be raped. Sheesh.
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alligator
post Apr 27 2006, 09:04 PM
Post #1596


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But intolerance of person who don’t pose an imminent threat to you is insanity. When you believe they do, despite the fact they don’t, that is called paranoia, also a mental illness.

Agreed. Real homophobes are paranoid.

What they fear is really inside them. Since they can't admit that, they project the menace outward and "defend" themselves against it through hostility and violence.
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alligator
post Apr 27 2006, 08:59 PM
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In your estimation Alligator is that the everyday use and everyday common understanding of the term "homophobia", or are you making like Jacques Derrida and deconstructing it for us?

Venetia, that WAS how it was used, until gay rights defenders decided they needed a catchy, one-word "-ism" or "-phobe" term to describe those who were insufficiently supportive of their cause.

Which brings us to the present day, where the word is just shorthand for "anyone one step to the right from me on matters homosexual," which is stupid because actual, for-real homophobia does exist and is a real problem for gays and straights both.

It's similar to what happened to "racism,' which used to mean a hateful, mendacious theory of biological determinism but now apparently describes anyone who opposes Affirmative Action or thinks Jesse Jackson is a buffoon.

Ditto with "feminist" (radical or otherwise), a term thrown around so loosely both pro- and con- that it's hard to say WHAT it means anymore.

PS - Don't knock my homeboy Jacques. ;)
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natulik
post Apr 27 2006, 08:37 PM
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http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06116/685098-55.stm

WTF?

Okay, I'm not surprised per se, but I am definately outraged that high schools don't ever focus on how these things are an everyday reality for girls, and how they just grow used to it all instead of striving to change their environment.
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nohope
post Apr 27 2006, 08:00 PM
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anarch that article is interesting. The solution would be simple, how about women only bars…. Bars were women could go drink and party as much as they want and not have to worry about being raped by a man.

I think an idea like this is past its prime. I think a lot of women might be interested in going out, having a few drinks with the guys, but then when it’s time to get totally shit faced and let it all hang out, go to a bar that only caters to women and provides safe passage back home.
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nohope
post Apr 27 2006, 07:53 PM
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I think alligator has a point regarding Homophobia.

But intolerance of person who don’t pose an imminent threat to you is insanity. When you believe they do, despite the fact they don’t, that is called paranoia, also a mental illness.
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