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katiebelle2882
post May 13 2006, 02:03 PM
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yeah, just to clarify, I didnt think thats why you had an issue with porn bklyn, and yes pepper, i would say that many women have an issue bc it does portray women in a horrible light (but not all of it). Of course bklyn, if i had a guy like that, i wouldnt like porn either, but its hardly the majority.

This all being said, I have an issue with porn as well, I was just speaking from the angle of the fact that i wouldnt tell my SO what to watch (as long as it wasnt fucked up, or turned into a situation that you experienced brklyn.)

Also, there is such thing as women friendly porn that even guys enjoy watching. I agree pepper that it very much could stem from what you explained (no need to go into it again you did a very nice job yourself)

greenbean, i agree with your assessment that many of us here would applaud a big woman being looked at as a sex object but kind of belittle those who are small. that being said, i think the idea is that society at large already affirms that being tiny and skinny is a good thing, while bigger women dont see that kind of reinforcement in society.


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greenbean
post May 13 2006, 12:00 PM
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yeesh, well, that senario is def bad news!
I actually liked that my former boyfriends were into porn, but none of them acted the way bklyn described. I guess its all about how they feel about/treat women irl, because I dont think you can generalize everyone who looks at porn (which is basically everyone).

In regards to the "school girl" porn, I dont have a big problem with it because one of my friends has posed for barely legal porn (when she was 22 and looked 16) and really, they are VERY careful to make sure those girls are of age. As far as it not being healthy to like girls that look young, well, thats kinda of a double standard. I mean, most Busties would applaud a large women seen as a sex object, yet a flat-chested girl with small teeth cant be seen as sexy? Doesnt seem fair.


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bklynhermit
post May 12 2006, 10:19 PM
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i don't have a problem with porn because i'm insecure about myself. i have a problem with porn because for three years i dated someone who was basically addicted to the stuff.

let's see. we could start with when he told me he was going to dump me because i was 'fat' and 'unnatractive when naked' -- i weighed about 115 lbs. at the time and every other partner i've ever had, before or since, has had no problem with my body. however, i don't look like a porn star therefore i am 'fat' and 'unnattractive'.

we could then go to the way he was fixated only on porn-ish sex acts. all of his fantasies, EVERY SINGLE THING he wanted to do in bed was centered around cliche porn stuff: from behind, deep throat, anal, S&M, cumming on my chest. he never ever wanted to do anything in bed that he hadn't already seen in porn a zillion times. incidentally, this also meant that he had virtually no interest in pleasuring me in any genuine way, and that if i didn't have loud rapturous orgasms all the time (despite having sex that was in no way pleasurable for me) he would accuse me of being an ungrateful cunt or taking his totally hot sexual prowess for granted.

then there were all the times he wanted me to watch porn that he knew specifically made me uncomfortable. rape, hardcore s&m, gang bangs, girls physically in pain choking on cock. and if i refused, he would wait till i was in bed to blare the porn i'd refused to watch and then loudly get off to it.

this is why i 'have a problem' with porn. because i've seen the guys who are really into it, and they're fucked up. because i hate the kinds of sex and attitudes towards women's bodies it promotes. and, yeah, because of all the classic feminist arguments, too.

i dont' hate porn because i'm insecure, i hate it because i'm confident enough in myself to honestly know that porn isn't what sex is supposed to be about, and i don't want it in my sex life.

which means, yes, i'm willing to dump someone if they seem too into it for me. and, yes, i want to know whether my partners use it a lot. it's not about codependence or control. i have a right to know what makes my partner tick, sexually. and if it's something that disturbs me, i have a right to not want to be with that person. had i known all the ramifications of that previous partner's interest in porn, i would have broken up with him before i got in over my head. it would very much have been a matter of my safety - mental and emotional safety, perhaps, but even so.
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pepper
post May 12 2006, 08:08 PM
Post #1064







kb, nice. i agree with it all except for

"i think alot of women have a problem with porn bc they are insecure about themselves."

even though i think that that is very true in many cases i think it stems from something much deeper. maybe this belongs in the f word thread but for me porn is about the degredation of women, the viewing of them as sexual objects. i think it effects us all, each one of us, male and female, on a subconscious level. look at the pronogrification of teeny weeny grade school kids these days. it's the trickle down effect of making sexuality nothing special, or all that there is.
i'm not insecure, i'm hot and i'm dirty. the thing is i only want the man i'm with thinking about me that way, not every dude who ever sees me. and that's what porn is all about to me. it's not the simple watching of erotic images. those girls don't even look real anymore. it's not like puffy bush 70's porn is all the rage these days. oh no, these days girls that are still in grade school want surgery to make them more "perfect".
i choose to not feed into that crap by not supporting the industry and seeing it for all that it is. if i wanna watch porn, i'll make my own.

this isn't very eloquently put but i'm tired, it's been a long day.
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katiebelle2882
post May 12 2006, 10:25 AM
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Bklyhermit,

you say it's not about control but frankly, that's all i see it being about. I dont think its my job to tell my SO everything about my sex life unless its relevant to OUR sex life together. It's none of his business how many people i have slept with, what i did with them etc etc. also, watching porn by myself (if it is not interfering in our sex life) has nothing to do with OUR sex life. to not keep anything to yourself about your own sexuality unless its going to be hurtful to them seems extreme and way dependent.
perhaps i feel this way because i wouldnt dump someone for watching porn as i feel its way overstepping the boundaries of personal space. perhaps expressing concern about a certain type is one thing, but telling them they can't is something else altogether. banning someone from something that is relatively harmless is a sure way to get them to go behind your back.

i am also slightly unclear as to what watching normal porn has to do with your "safety".

i think alot of women have a problem with porn bc they are insecure about themselves. I am not talking about porn that is disturbing or violent or completely degrading to women. i think a person has every right to not want their SO watching that. However if hes watching erotica or porn that portrays women fairly and you still have a problem, well i think thats something that the woman has to deal with. of course he should help, but it shouldnt impinge on his private sex life just bc you are insecure about yourself. (i dont necessarily think anyone here is like this but i am just saying).

also, i think that if someone's porn habit was as severe as you are describing Bklyn, that they wouldnt need to tell you about it, you would most likely just figure it out.

and again i will say that if this was reversed, even if the guy had reasons you do for not wanting his SO watching porn, that we would be telling her to dump the bastard bc he shoudlnt have a say in something as private as porn and what you find erotic.





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jazmyn13
post May 11 2006, 04:52 PM
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but basically :-) yeah, we're in agreement on the communication thing.
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jazmyn13
post May 11 2006, 04:50 PM
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well...just because they watch porn doesn't mean they're devoting a 'significant amount of energy to it' or that he talks about it at all. Obviously no one wants to date someone who's whole universe is influenced by the porn they watch. Simply watching it occasionally is completely different from the kind of "habit" you're describing. Just because I like to enjoy a drink or two occasionally doesn't mean that I'm an alcoholic. You may not want them to watch it at all; that's between you and them. If they want to do that out of care and respect for you, bully for them.

Besides, she didn't seem to indicate that his viewing was at all excessive or that it was interfering with their intimacy, just that she was bothered by what he watched - even when it was "garden variety" porn.

Also, no one is trying to get you to waiver from your stance on teen porn. you don't watch it, you wouldn't want your SO watching it. Fine. But if the participants are 18 or over, it's legal; like it or not. Unless or until the age of consent moves up, the participants are considered legal consenting adults.
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bklynhermit
post May 11 2006, 10:11 AM
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I think we're in full agreement there then, jazmyn. I never said one should judge one's SO on the basis of whether they watch porn, never said one had the right to allow or forbid anything of that nature.

BUT i do think there should be full disclosure of that sort of thing so that people can make the proper decisions where that is concerned. I'm not interested in dating someone who devotes a significant amount of energy to pornography, has a whole lot of it, talks about it a lot, is really influenced by that whole universe. I'm just not. So I'd rather know from the beginning so that I can dump the person before things get too serious. Or so that the person in question can decide that they can live without their porn because they'd rather be with me.

I don't set out to make anyone feel dirty or wrong. I just want to be able to talk about it and express what are very real needs for me.

I also haven't wavered from my position that teen porn is NEVER ACCEPTABLE, as it's borderline illegal. There's a huge difference between 'sometimes i get off to regular garden variety porn' and 'i like something illegal'. Yes, it is wrong. Yes, I will make ANYBODY I know who is into it feel dirty and that they are doing something immoral. Because it is immoral. And they should feel dirty. Regular porn, different story (though I'm still not crazy about it). Anything where the people involved might not be 18, totally wrong. Period.
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jazmyn13
post May 11 2006, 01:01 AM
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bklynhermit, i don't think you heard anyone here arguing in opposition to expressing discomfort or openly talking about how you feel.

Just that some of us feel that it is overly controlling to try to say "this kind of porn is okay" and "this kind" is not (obviously excepting kiddie porn). Like, this kind of toy is okay, but this kind is not. I thnk you're right in that there needs to be accomodation and flexibility, but you have to approach each other's needs openly and non-judgementally.

I'm with pepper here. If my bf wants to know the kind of porn i watch, i'll tell him. If he doesn't want to know, or assumes i don't watch, that's fine, I don't feel an obligation to tell him. I'm not cheating on him. BUT I would have BIG problems with him telling me what I can and can't enjoy - simply because he felt it was "immoral". Either you accept me, or you don't in some areas. I would probably be more amenable to changing if it were presented in an open way, without me feeling dirty or wrong. I think that Katiebelle is right. If the situation were reversed, I thnk that we would be telling her to watch out for his trying to control her. just my 2 cents.
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bklynhermit
post May 10 2006, 10:25 PM
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pepper, i'm not saying everyone HAS to share everything (especially literally -- my toys are mine, too!).

i'm saying that, if i'm fucking someone, they're entitled to know just about everything about the rest of my 'sex life'. this has very little to do with an "entermeshing of lives" and very much to do with safety and lines of communication.

better to tell someone i've been sexually assaulted multiple times in my past than to just freak out on them if they touch me in a way that is triggering. better to ask right off the bat if someone is really into porn before i get all attached and then find out that they're into freaky hardcore shit i have a problem with. absolutely vital to inform guys i'm with that i have no intention of ever going on the pill, so it will be condoms forever.

and, conversely, i expect full disclosure from my partners as well. this isn't to be controlling or codependent, but to make an educated decision about whether i'm really interested in them, and also because just as i have things people need to know (std's, birth control issues, etc.), i would guess that a lot of people have things i would benefit from knowing, for my own personal safety and happiness. if you're one of those guys who can't enjoy sex with condoms, just TELL me rather than continuing the 'it's not you, umm, this just HAPPENS sometimes' charade. if you're one of those girls who needs her vibrator alone time, well, why not just say that? i won't be offended.

it's not about 'obligation' or control. it's not about allowing or forbidding anyone anything, or passing judgement. it's about honesty and open lines of communication. especially in the beginning, when decisions can still be made easily.
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venetia
post May 10 2006, 08:55 PM
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Pepper - oops, no I meant that some of us are allergic to some types of porn! The "wool" was the thing I was likening to porn, not the allergy!

After years of seeing this issue come up at bust I think that there's a significant number of young women who genuinely don't choose to be bothered by, or turned off by, a partner's porn use but it affects them whether they like it or not. Hence, it's a little like an allergy.
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pepper
post May 10 2006, 08:37 PM
Post #1072







once again, i differ in opinion. i don't tell my lovers/partners everything about my sex life. only the part that i choose to share with them is "ours", the rest of it, like the rest of my life, is MINE and mine alone.
take, for instance, my toys. now some of them are definitely for sharing but others are definitely NOT. i don't feel obligated to say what i like, when or why if it's personal and private and something that i like to indulge in on my own. i have secrets and i keep them to myself. i don't believe in the total intermeshing of two lives to create one. for me that wouldn't be healthy. not to say that it doesn't work for others, i know that it does. but things that i like to keep to myself, fantasies, my history before them, etc, those i am not obligated to share.
what i am trying to say is different strokes for different folks. i don't know if i even think the teen-pron is about sex life, i think it's more about morals and boundaries and impulses and control. where do we take it from there?
again i say, if someone is behaving in a way that doesn't sit right with me i either find a way to feel ok about it or i stop being around that person because making them stop the behavior doesn't take away what motivated it or made it ok in the first place. that's still there.
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bklynhermit
post May 10 2006, 12:57 PM
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one thing i've realized for myself is that when i am in a serious relationship, there are NO CLOSED DOORS when it comes to sex. there is ultimately no such thing as 'my sex life', it is 'our sex life', because every choice i make sexually is going to have an impact on my partner, and vice versa. including porn.

i feel that i have the right to know if my partners use porn, what they're using, how often, under what circumstances, where they're getting it, how much they have, etc. this isn't to say that i have ever interrogated anyone that way or thrown out a list of demands or anything. but if i ask, "do you watch porn?" and they get all defensive, that is a BIG red flag for me. if i know that they are into a kind of porn that really freaks me out or they use it in a way that really bothers me, and they won't discuss it with me in a rational way, the relationship probably isn't going to work out.

finding 'barely legal' porn on someone's computer would be one of those situations, especially if they refused to talk about it with me, lied about it, or refused to see my point of view about it.
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katiebelle2882
post May 10 2006, 10:04 AM
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to look at it from the other side? what would we be telling her if her BF told her she shouldnt look at porn? we would be telling her its her right to do whatever she wants and he shouldnt be bossing her around or dictating what she finds erotic.

i think the issue here is the kind of porn it is. perhaps badcrumble, you need to tell him that it makes you uncomfortable for him to be looking at sites that sexualize and glorify being so young and that you find it weird bc for you it borders on a sort of pedophilia type thing.

and personally, telling a guy thata he couldnt watch porn seems way over the top and controlling to me, provided the porn he watches isnt severely disturbing.


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pepper
post May 10 2006, 09:01 AM
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pron isn't an allergy though, is it? it's a choice. just like screwing around, cursing, wearing bad shoes. one may like it and do it, but it can be avoided.
good point though about the baggage. for me it isn't about trying to change or boss another person around. for me it's about choosing what is acceptable for Me in My Life. if being with someone who looks at itty bitty teeny bopper pron isn't ok, then i shouldn't be with that person. simple. and if being with me is more important to them than the pron, well, they also have the choice, do they not? but trying to impose my standards on someone else is futile, cruel and unreasonable. imho. i certainly wouldn't want anyone doing that to me. i am who i am, thanks. take it or leave it.
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venetia
post May 10 2006, 01:36 AM
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If my partner was allergic to something, say, wool, and he told me, then I could choose whether to wear wool around him or not. I might choose not to wear it at all, not to buy wool. On the other hand wearing woolen clothes might be important to me and I might choose to wear them sometimes and try to minimise contact with him. Or I might like to wear wool so much that I'd eventually have such a negative effect on him that he couldn't live with me any more.

His discussing his allergy wouldn't necessarily entail him "dictating" to me or "banning" me from doing something - it would just involve giving me the information on where he's at and allowing me to make an informed choice about how much I was willing to change or compromise in order to be with him. Why is it that as soon as we talk about anything to do with sex, it quickly gets all this baggage about telling other people what to do?
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jazmyn13
post May 10 2006, 01:23 AM
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I never said she didn't. I think that of course she should express her discomfort with what he's viewing. Do I think that this should be approached in a non-accusatory, direct way through open communication? yes. Clearly, porn isn't a complete deal breaker since she knew that he watched it. It wasn't something he shared with her and it wasn't something she really wanted him to share beyond knowing that he occasionally watches it.

If she doesn't want him viewing any porn, fine. I just think that for me, personally, I wouldn't want my SO dictating what I could and couldn't privately watch. If it's child pornography, of course there would be problems. But this, however close to the line, is not child pornography. I wouldn't tell my SO what porn to watch; in fact, I didn't. He had his stash (which I occasionally watched on my own) and I wouldn't have dreamed of telling him he couldn't watch it. I wouldn't tell him what to read, or what to listen to.

If porn is becoming a "deal breaker" for her, she needs to tell him that. Maybe he'll be perfectly fine not looking at the type of porn she's not comfy with. But I'm willing to be that he'll be less receptive if he feels that he's being accused of doing something immoral.
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bklynhermit
post May 10 2006, 12:58 AM
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in my opinion, this is an issue that would absolutely need to be discussed with my S.O.

for me, any porn at all is borderline deal-breaker. i realize not everybody feels that way. and i certainly don't want to get into the political aspects overmuch.

but i think that, as a participant in the relationship, yes, you do get to have input into the kind of porn your SO uses. maybe that input isn't "allow" vs. "don't allow", maybe it's just him being open about it, you being able to talk about it with him without being accused of being a nag. in order for your SO to be fully honest with you and faithful to you, i think there should be a huge degree if disclosure and discussion where this sort of thing is concerned.

also, whether 'society' condones teen porn (and barely legal, and sexy schoolgirls, etc etc) is irrelevant here. the point is that it IS borderline unethical (porn made with anyone who is really under 18 is ILLEGAL, period), and in addition it is something badcrumble thinks is inappropriate. which means that if she and her SO are to communicate well with each other, she has to be 'allowed' to bring this up with him.
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pepper
post May 9 2006, 08:52 PM
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"if you unburden yourself knowing his standard is different, are you doing it for him or for yourself?"
but if you keep something to yourself for his sake not your own just who exactly are you being true to? i have a hard time with this one. i want honesty in my life, i feel icky about lying or bottling up something that i want to say because i think someone might not want to hear it. i feel like that's me taking responsibility for what may be someone else's issue and sitting on my feelings. sure being brutally honest can be a bit much at times, things can be toned down. but i believe that it's best to do what YOU yourself feel is right instead of living by someone else's standards. i also think that hard things are sometimes good to hear, that giving someone the chance to deal with something that tweaks them and trusting that they can process it and grow from it is better than trying to protect them.
i know we're hashing the semantics of the truth etc, but i think about this one a lot and i value your input.
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jazmyn13
post May 9 2006, 05:43 PM
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uh, not to be too critical, but in my experience, letters aren't the best way to address complex issues. Why didn't you just wait until you got back to talk to him about this?

Unfortunately, the "teen porn" thing is all over the internet. search a porn database and "LOLITA" comes up frequently in a number of picture and movie titles. I think that it's one of those things that our culture is weird about. we're freaked out by pedophiles and have this war on pedophilia but at the same time, the most easily identifiable "sexy outfit" is the catholic school girl outfit. It is a fine line, as you say, but he's not necessarily a deviant for looking at this and getting aroused. Besides,there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Obviously, some fantasies are unhealthy, but sometimes we're just weird human beings. I, for instance, had very violent sexual fantasies for many years. I was never molested or raped but I enjoy rough sex and watch some hardcore porn. That doesn't mean that I want to be raped or think rape is okay.

I think that you have a right to express your discomfort but it seems like some of this is coming out of your general discomfort with porn. I don't know how you resolved your issues with porn in the past, but you allow him to watch it. IMHO, I think tht it is overly controlling to dictate the kind of erotic material your sig other can watch. However, I would VERBALLY express your discomfort without judging him (if possible). He's just going to be defensive if he feels attacked. It's a good possiblity that the letter made him feel defensive already.
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