[chachaheels]

Neverending, if you became a vegetarian just recently, do a LOT of research and find out what you need to do to maintain your health. I personally think that's easy to do if you add milk foods and egg foods to your diet; as soy is just so bad for you unless you only eat fermented organic soy, (which leaves you with Tofu and not much more). If you're not well-versed on how to get the nutrients you have to have, you'll ending up creating deficiencies in your body--which only leads to problems you don't want, beginning with weight gain. If you're craving sea foods, add them to your diet. If you're trying to go vegetarian and you find yourself craving meat, by all means, pay attention to those cravings. People make a real mistake when they think cravings are just poor will power: our bodies are actually telling us something important through "cravings". I've yet to hear of one which wasn't created by physiological need.

As for buying any drug off the internet, my advice on that is DON'T. Ever. Especially not hormone drugs. If you really want to use HRT of any kind, find out as much as possible, make sure you know all the side effects (cancer is one), and be under a very well informed, top-skilled endocrinologist's ongoing care before you decide to do this.

I don't know what it is that makes people think they can self-treat with any drug, pharmaceutical or "natural". These are really powerful substances. Drug substances cannot heal anything unless they also have the power to seriously harm--keep that in mind! All doctors are warned never to self-treat because of the lack of objectivity this causes. There is absolutely no way for you to fully understand what needs to be addressed and what a drug is doing to your body without that objectivity. Oh, I know I'm going to hear a bunch of "how do you know? I treated myself and I was successful at it!!" But that just makes what I'm saying more obviously true.

[i_hate_sports]

Piano Girl: I feel disgusting and depressed about it too. You aren't alone. And it sucks because I don't want to talk about it to my friends because I feel like they will think I am gross. I talk about it to my coworker, boss/BIL , sister and mom. They don't get it and I feel like they think its weird that I have this problem.

I finished the Cleocin today. No horrible discharge all day. Yippee. I am really hoping this might be it for me. I am not going back on BC. I really feel like after reading everything on this board its about estrogen for me. I am going to let my body do its thing and not mess with my hormones any more.

I am so glad I found you guys. I have learned so much from this board in just the past week.

[neverending]

chachaheels: I became a vegetarian 2 wks ago because I thought that might help also.Should I add seafood to my diet? and are estroil vaginal suppositories safe to use and buy off the internet?

[chachaheels]

Pepper, I'm one of those people who suffered tremendously because I cut meat out of my diet. It's a nutrient source I absolutely needed to have to maintain, among other things, hormonal balance, emotional balance, and avoid chronic disease. Many of the initial complaints from which I suffered actually stopped all together when I added seafood to my ovo-lacto vegetarian diet, which confirmed what I suspected but never wanted to accept. I'm still dealing with some of the problems I actually created with my vegetarian diet less expediently but effectively by adding red meat back into my diet. I no longer need to supplement with anything other than cod liver oil (cause I won't eat cod liver, I'm not as fair as I "should" be, living in a northern clime...so I have to take an absorbable form of vitamins A and D or I'm in serious trouble)--plus supplements were an utter waste of money for me as I need to get my nutrients from food.

My own experience is supported in what is perhaps the only comprehensive, detailed, long-term study of long term dietary practices as they were observed in a huge variety of cultural groups from every point in the world, and that's the comprehensive scientific nutritional studies first undertaken and published by Dr. Weston Price in the 1930's. His work has of course been continued and expanded by hundreds of biochemical nutritionists and nutritional scientists and it continues even today. You can still find Price's detailed work in medical libraries everywhere; you may even be able to get a copy if his published book based on his findings (which is a little tougher to do as it isn't for sale in mass targeted retail outlets); but you can check in on the westonaprice.org site to have a look at a great deal of his findings and many of his photographic documents showing the physical effects of dietary change.

There are certain things all extremely healthy, long-lived, long-sustained peoples from every part of the world had in common in their diets: one very important one which we ignore quite easily in our own modern diet is the need for raw food in the diet. I mean raw vegetables AND raw meat foods, raw meat foods most importantly because their fats make nutrients from other foods bioavailable.

All cultures and peoples who still eat raw meat foods will "cook" the meat with other foods--eg. with some kind of acid, like a vinegar, or wine; the use of fermented, salty brines or hot mustards, or through some kind of a process which allows the greater access to nutrients (that's what the "rotting" is about--although, to be fair, I've only ever heard of this done to game and other meats which are then cooked. It's normally called "aging"). Think of dishes like steak tartar, or sushi and sashimi, or carpaccio or ceviche: The only exception I can think of to this is cuisines where raw meat sources include insects--usually no preparation is needed to intensify the nutrient amounts in those foods, as they are just eaten live. We even apply this rule to vegetable foods, too, if you think about it: that's what salad dressing is all about--a mixture of acid to break down the protein material and allow their nutrients to be released; and fat which allows the body to actually absorb and use the released nutrients. Pepper, you're french: when I think of the salads that are so recognizably french I see this rule at work all the time. One in particular is the famous typical frisee salad, which includes blue cheese, lard and vinegar dressing, and bacon along with the bitter salad green. I've also thought the french were quite astute at adding the crispened, fat rich salmon skin pieces to salads made with sweeter lettuces, just to add texture and the necessary fat content.

There's no way to naturally "increase" estrogen in the body--it's simply not what you want to do if you want hormonal balance to be achieved. Hormones go out of balance in the body for any number of reasons--it could be that you end up having too little or too much of a specific hormone because a gland which has nothing at all to do with sex hormones has become incapable or somehow hindered in functioning properly, which causes a whole chain-link type of reaction everywhere else in the body. An example of this which happens to be incredibly common in women is something like adrenal dysfunction--when the adrenal glands are overwhelmed by any number of factors, ongoing, uncurtailed stress being a common one. When those glands are pressed to react to an incredible amount of stress, it's almost as if our bodies create a "fight or flight" reaction to a situation which doesn't warrant that kind of reaction. If this happens often enough, our adrenal glands simply become overworked and cannot respond, or, alternately, overrespond when receptors for the hormones produced simply stop responding. What happens in that case is that the adrenals have to create even more hormone to effect the kind of reaction the body needs--and right there the imbalance begins...as the increase in those hormones will create a reactionary production or lack of production in other glands in the body...including the pituitary, the thyroid, the pancreas and even the ovaries. Eventually the organs in the body will begin to show the effects of the continued imbalances and glandular dysfunction...this is when the chronic diseases such as diabetes and heart disease can become full blown. Hormonal imbalances can also happen when hormones are introduced into the body for any reason--use of corticosteroids for asthma treatment, for example; hormone replacement therapies or ongoing hormone use--such as the birth control pill; use of steroids for body-building, even the use of melatonin for the treatment of insomnia or jet lag.

What you want to do naturally is restore optimum hormonal balance not by adding or subtracting hormones, but by supporting the body using proper treatment that allows all glands and organs to function properly. The balance will restore itself when the glands function properly; and they will function properly when the body is healthy again.

Nutrition can play a big role by making certain all the absolutely necessary fats and proteins required by the body to maintain this kind of abalance is available int he body, but other natural treatment options are also very effective. You need to find one that makes it easy for you to comply with what is required to restore your health.

Eralc Alegna, I don't mind if you ask my medical background. I'm a homeopathic doctor with a private practice in which I treat people of all ages (and animals too) using classical homeopathic medicine and holistic nutrition. The vast majority of the patients in my practice are women and children; I treat mainly chronic diseases (I like to teach my patients how to treat the acute diseases they may run into) and all of my patients save for maybe 2 of them came to me after every other kind of treatment has failed. I've been in private practice for 6 years.

[Eralc Alegna]

So I was at the doc last week and got a culture, and I got the call today that it was COMPLETELY NORMAL.
How the hell does that add up?!?!? The quick test they did in the office was negative too but she said there was a chance that it was due to the boric i used the morning before. Could that afect the culture too? this makes no sense. the discharge is not normal in color, volume or odor compared to what im like in between infections. I'm so lost! I'm not going to take the pill and i think im going to switch back to peroxide plus a vaginal probiotic. i'm going to go look for what chacha recommended before.

Speaking of, cha cha thank you so much for all the advice and info. do you mind if I ask what your medical backround is?

[neverending]

pianogirl: I think we all feel disgusted and depressed! It got to the point where I hated being around people. This is a condition that we just can't help.People use to make fun of me saying I smelled like ammonia or other things and I finally snapped on one person, so now I'm the big bitch on campus.Go figure!My aunt even had the nerve to try to say something cruel to me and all I can think in my head is I CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT BITCH TO GET OLD BECAUSE SHE IS GOING TO NEED ME ONE DAY AND I'LL MAKE SURE I REMIND HER OF THE PAIN I FELT WHEN I NEEDED SUPPORT.WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!

[pianogirl]

Hello Ladies,


I have found myself a holistic doctor. I spoke with her today in regards to my condition she says it's probably a hormonal condition. I have an appointment with her 2 weeks from today. She has also told me the condition is very common. I will let you know what she says when I see her also she says the issue needs to be address internally that is why the infection or smell returns. She says bc plls alter the vaginal flora. The appointments are rather expensive $170 initial visit and $70 afterwards. However this infection is really or has really killed my libedo and self confidence. I feel disgusting and depressed.


Anyway I just wanted to share this with you guys.


Thanks,

PG

[pepper]

chacha, maybe we could take this question to the general health question thread but i was curious about your statement that some people need to eat meat.
fyi, it's only a very small faction of raw foodists who eat raw meat (raw eggs, dairy, and/or other creatures ei bugs). even within that community they are considered extremists (the raw meat eaters anyhow). some of them let it rot first, a practice i have never understood.

are there some natural ways to increase estrogen in the body? i can't imagine that supplementing hormones would be so great in the long run.

[neverending]

Called Doctor office today and I am requesting estriol estrogen.I hope they just give it to me without having to come in.I heard estroil is supposed to be the safe estrogen.Does anyone know about this form of estrogen?

[chachaheels]

Eralc Alegna, the body's ability to heal itself is limitless. No one can say for certain what it can or can't do in each and every case. Everyone is very different, and no illness is simply "biological" or strictly physical in origin. We're just not constructed that way. So, some times what works for others with the same ailment may not work for you--you must factor in and address other factors into your health, factors many people like to think of as "holistic". What makes you susceptible to illness will be very different from what makes others susceptible, even when we're talking about the same illness! So we can never ignore the other factors in our entire lives and the roles they may play in our health.

Because this is true it is possible to restore health even if so much has been made to take place in the body via suppressive drugs and therapies. Every single case is different--but the key is trying to understand and know yourself and what it is in your life which makes these illnesses possible. It's the only way we can make the changes we need to make in our lives to bring health back.

I'm not sure where you are, but if you're in the US or Canada you can seek out a regulatory body or society which connects herbalists as practitioners but also sets standards for education and practice in your state or province. Organisations like this will accept only qualified practitioners as members and they will be able to provide you with some referrals for people who practice in your area. You want to find someone who has a basic foundation in the medical sciences; but more importantly you want someone who has studied botanical medicine theory, chemistry, and pharmacology (or what is often called pharmacognosy) and has completed some supervised clinic work. Any medical therapy requires a basic minimum of 5 years of study combining all of these disciplines as they apply to the specific treatment method. After you check for those qualifications, make sure you spend a few minutes talking to the practitioner to get a sense about what the consultation will involve, how they interact with you, how they decide which medicine to your in your case, and what they charge (if money is an issue, always ask about a sliding scale because you want to find someone who will try to accomodate you).

If you wish to find a naturopath, the same idea applies--seek out a regulatory body in your state or province and ask what their standards for membership include, then ask for qualified referrals in your area. Naturopaths are like the GPs of alternative medicine in that they study a little bit of various treatment modalities--but often they are required to choose a specialty and dedicate the majority of their studies to that treatment method. If you want to stick with herbal or botanical medicine, seek out an ND who specializes in using herbs. You can ask them to make suggestions in other modalities--such as with nutrition; in general I find good NDs will stick to the modality you request or the one they know best to get good results with each client. Many NDs, however, will try to use a bit of everything on you--this is not a recommended approach because many modalities are simply not meant to be used together (for example: homeopathy and herbs should not be used together--there's no need and one treatment can actually be hindered by the other one; herbs and nutritional therapies, on the other hand, often work very well together). Again, I highly recommend the quick, 10 minute or so phone interview with the NDs who've been referred to you so you get a "feel" for who they are, and what to expect with their treatment in terms of how they practice. Being able to feel like you can work easily with the practitioner makes the biggest difference in your success.

As for the boric acid, I'd stop for a little while and just let myself recover a bit. It's difficult for people to understand this, but with any medicine they will experience changes which may improve their situation; but continued use will create symptoms in the body which you don't want. All the drug effects can be experienced--from healing ones to ones which we mistakenly call "side" effects, which are really just more effects of the substance. Boric acid can be very healing if used properly, however long term use or use of too much of the substance will create effects as bad as or worse than the ailment you originally treated...that's why it's important to have someone who is trained in using the substance monitor your case. Boric acid is wonderful as a disinfectant in the body--it can kill off some of the organisms linked to the illness you experience--but overuse seems to weaken the body's own defenses against these organisms all together. After all, BV is much, much more than just the microorganisms involved.

As for the raw food diet, I treat my patients with nutritional therapies too and I always encourage more raw food in the diet in general--but I do believe we have inherited a great deal of knowledge about intensifying nutrient availability in foods through cooking methods and techniques, so I don't believe raw everything is healthy at all. Certainly, the raw food diets people like to push nowadays are strictly vegetarian or vegan, which I don't think suits everyone just fine (I think raw meat foods are also required in many diets, and they should also be eaten on occasion). Many people NEED to eat meat and if they choose a vegetarian or vegan diet they must supplement (which is really not ideal) or their health will not improve but rather decline.

[jewelscando]

I smoke. And I'm sure it's slowing down the healing of this crap. I'm going to the Doctor on Wednesday for this skin eating disease rash I have that WON'T GO AWAY!!! I'm going to ask her about the Estrogen since I am 37 and have had a Hysterectomy.

By the way, had sex Last night and no smell. What are the odds of that. Because trust me, the smell is there. Just didn't show itself.

I will let you all know how the doctor goes.

[pianogirl]

I've heard other people say that this doesn't work and everyone is different. But, I feel like this might be more natural and apparently has shown to help balance some women's flora in clinical trails. And hydrogen peroxide has no side effects and this rests a little more easily on my mind - if it's working, which it is. But seriously, I'm kinda coming to terms with dealing with some sort of bv maintenance right after my period.
[/quote]


Klee let us know how long have you been using hygrogen peroxide.


Thanks

[pianogirl]

autumnbreeze:I'm not sure how they did this.I guess they did one at a time.Sorry I can't be more help to you.

Ladies:
HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE TAKEN BIRTH CONTROL?

I was on seasonale for 7 months I started gettig bv 3 months into taking bc pills never again.

[i_hate_sports]

neverending:

I've been on several different birth control pills, then nuvaring continuously for the past 10 years (age 16-25)

I went off last week and do not plan on going back on after reading about low levels of estrogen being a possible cause.

[neverending]

autumnbreeze:I'm not sure how they did this.I guess they did one at a time.Sorry I can't be more help to you.

Ladies:
HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE TAKEN BIRTH CONTROL?

[autumnbreeze]

THANKS PIANOGIRL! I will check it out.

LADIES MAYBE THIS MIGHT WORK FOR SOME OF YOU.

Bacterial vaginosis (BV) is a polymicrobial infection of the vagina and should not be considered an exclusively sexually transmitted disease. We describe the case of a 17-year-old female virgin adolescent with recurrent malodorous vaginal discharge for 6 months. Before referral to us she had been treated unsuccessfully with conservative treatment options. Our investigation revealed Gardnerella vaginalis as the responsible factor for the vaginal infection. Because metronidazole treatment had failed as monotherapy, a new method was applied. Repeated vaginal washings with 3% H2O2, 15% NaCl and 10% providone iodine were initiated. At the end of each washing, vaginal walls were thoroughly cleaned up with a small gauze. After 10 days of treatment the odor and the vaginal discharge had ceased and 12 months later no relapse had occurred. It seems to be reasonnable to use this kind of treatment in recurrent BV.

neverending: Thanks. This is my first time hearing about the NaCl. Do you know if the H2O2, NaCl, and providone iodine were all mixed together and applied or given separately?

[latinrican]

Here's some more info about the hydrogen peroxide that you all may want to read.

http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/vagInfections.html

[neverending]

JUST POSTING FOR MY OWN RECORDS BECAUSE I'M GOING TO PRINT ALL OF THIS AND TAKE IT WITH ME TO MY NEXT DOCTORS APPOINTMENT.

Estrogen supports the growth of Lactobacillus, which helps maintain an acidic vaginal flora. This in turn creates an unsuitable environment for bacterial growth. Other examples of host defense mechanisms can be found in TABLE 3.4

The vaginal epithelium, which is highly estrogen dependent, becomes flattened and loses glycogen which leads to a decrease in lactobacillus, lactic acid, and a rise in vaginal pH. These alterations affect the vaginal microbial population and put aging women at a greater risk for developing bacterial infections.

With the loss of estrogen, the vaginal pH changes from a normally acidic low to a higher, more alkaline pH. This less acidic environment discourages the growth of important protective organisms, lactobacillus which acts as a bacterial guard against abnormal bacteria and yeasts. In the absence of lactobacillus, these "bad guys" overgrow and can cause discharge, irritation, and give rise to increased urinary tract infections.

The loss of estrogen also produces a change in the vaginal pH from a normally acidic low to a higher, more alkaline pH. This less acidic environment discourages the growth of important protective organisms such as lactobacillus, which act as a bacterial guard against abnormal bacteria and yeasts. In the absence of lactobacillus, bacterial vaginal infections may occur more frequently, causing discharge and irritation, and contributing to increased urinary tract infections.(THIS IS PROBABLY WHY WE CAN TAKE ALL THE acidophilus WE WANT BUT ARE STILL UNABLE TO BALANCE THE VAGINAL PH BECAUSE THEY(lactobacillus) DON'T EVEN GET A CHANCE TO GROW.LOOK AT THE 2ND SENTENCE AND NOTICE HOW IT SAYS "DISCOURAGES THE GROWTH OF IMPORTANT PROTECTIVE ORGANISMS SUCH AS LACTOBACILLUS".THIS EXPLAINS WHY THE INFECTION KEEPS COMING BACK NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.)

Since estrogen has a major role in maintaining the health and function of not just the vagina, but all tissues including the uterus, urinary bladder, and urethra, low levels of the hormone may cause these organs to weaken and shrink. When the bladder is affected, urinary incontinence, infection or painful urination may occur.

Women who are on contraceptive medications have a very low level of estrogen for the intent of contraceptives is to suppress normal ovarian function and prevent ovulation, therefore preventing a possible pregnancy.

A decrease in estrogen results in several vaginal changes. The vaginal lining becomes thinner and more fragile resulting in an increased risk of bacterial infection.

Small amounts of topical estrogen applied over a few weeks to the vaginal and vulvar tissues typically result in a dramatic response, with thickening, lubrication, and return of elasticity to the tissues

Because topical estrogen products contain unopposed estrogen, there is the possibility that they could cause endometrial proliferation, hyperplasia, or carcinoma

Decreased estrogen levels cause the vaginal pH to become more alkaline, typically with levels greater than 5.0. Microscopic examination of the vaginal secretions often reveals decreased lactobacilli, and can also be used to rule out other causes of vaginitis (e.g., bacterial vaginosis, candidiasis, and trichomoniasis).[1] If the diagnosis is still uncertain after the history, physical examination, and testing described, a smear from the upper third of the vaginal wall can be sent for cytologic examination. Typically, there will be decreased superficial cells and increased basal and parabasal cells with atrophic vaginitis.[3]

With normal use of vaginal estriol cream at the dose you been prescribed — which is standard — side effects are very rare. A few individuals are allergic to the cream base with which the pharmacist mixes the estriol. If that occurs, the base can be changed.

The vaginally-applied dosages of estriol effective for relief of vaginal dryness result in negligible systemic absorption. That means you don’t have to worry about breast or uterine cancer being stimulated by vaginal estriol. Estriol is a weak bioidentical estrogen that is produced in particularly high amounts during pregnancy. It has a very robust local effect on the estrogen receptors in vaginal tissue, thus reducing vaginal dryness and thickening vaginal mucosa in a matter of a few days or weeks.

At this time, estriol is available only through formulary pharmacies in this country, although it has a long history of routine use in Europe. The pharmacist prepares it as a cream for application with a syringe. You draw a half-gram of cream into the syringe and place it deep within the vagina. It’s a good idea to take your finger and spread a little around the opening of the vagina and the outer third of the urethra, as well, which is just under the vaginal surface at about 12 o’clock. Start with 0.5 grams, twice per day for one week. This will build up the vaginal tissue effectively. Then decrease to 0.5 grams, once per day. By the third week you will probably be able to decrease to a maintenance dose of 0.5 grams, twice per week. It’s best to apply the cream several hours before intercourse to allow the tissue adequate time for absorption. A small amount won’t hurt your partner, however.

No woman should have to suffer from urinary or vaginal symptoms that are the result of changing estrogen levels, whether this occurs due to excessive stress, following childbirth, during perimenopause or at any other life transition. Estriol is a great solution when the over-the-counter remedies aren’t enough. And there is essentially no risk. (See Supporting Reference 2.)
Estriol Helps Maintain Healthy Vaginal Tissue

Vaginal dryness and atrophy, urinary frequency, and repeat urinary tract infections are problems that many women experience during perimenopause, menopause, and other periods of estrogen decline. These symptoms occur because falling estrogen levels can lead to thinning of the vaginal and urethral tissue.

Estriol has a very robust local effect on the many estrogen receptors in these tissues and can be useful in reducing vaginal dryness and thickening skin and mucosa in a matter of a few days or weeks. Studies show estriol also lowers vaginal pH, promoting a healthy environment for the growth of protective flora, which may then help prevent urinary tract infections. Most often, a small amount of estriol in an individually compounded cream or suppository is prescribed for use two or three times a week

[neverending]

THANKS PIANOGIRL! I will check it out.

LADIES MAYBE THIS MIGHT WORK FOR SOME OF YOU.

Bacterial vaginosis (BV) is a polymicrobial infection of the vagina and should not be considered an exclusively sexually transmitted disease. We describe the case of a 17-year-old female virgin adolescent with recurrent malodorous vaginal discharge for 6 months. Before referral to us she had been treated unsuccessfully with conservative treatment options. Our investigation revealed Gardnerella vaginalis as the responsible factor for the vaginal infection. Because metronidazole treatment had failed as monotherapy, a new method was applied. Repeated vaginal washings with 3% H2O2, 15% NaCl and 10% providone iodine were initiated. At the end of each washing, vaginal walls were thoroughly cleaned up with a small gauze. After 10 days of treatment the odor and the vaginal discharge had ceased and 12 months later no relapse had occurred. It seems to be reasonnable to use this kind of treatment in recurrent BV.

[pianogirl]

Hi Neverending

I went to the health food store to buy kefir and I saw estrogen pills. If you have a nearby healthfood store you should check it out.