[LoveMyPugs]

CH - I don't doubt for a second that is part of the problem as well. But seriously, he has to understand that things are never going to be perfect. He won't be and i won't be and I think he's waiting for that moment to come and it never will. He's very oldfashioned when it comes to being a provider and that's one of the things I love about him but he's too hard on himself. He's only human and this isn't an easy world to live in. We will be okay because we have each other and that has always been good enough for us until the topic of marriage comes up. I just don't understand why this has to be such a battle. We are practically married now. I don't feel anything will change. We are pretty set in our ways. We have our routine. I am happy but he's not and I can't help but take that on to myself. What am I doing wrong? What can I do more or less of? How can I just make him smile again? Why can't I make him feel better just by holding him in my arms? That's always worked before. These problems are just deeper and more ingrained.

Our parents don't have healthy marriages. My mom and dad should be divorced and his parents ignore every problem they have. We on the other hand talk everything out and always communicate. We address problems right away and we both work to fix things. This is just different but I KNOW WE CAN CONQUER THIS TOO!

[culturehandy]

Pugs, you are also putting a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself, as in if the relationship ends it's my fault.

a relationship takes the work of two people, if one person doesn't put in any effort, and the relationship falls apart, then it's the fault of both persons. granted, there is a time when you just stop caring...but I really don't think that's the case here.

I'll bet you dollars to donughts that this is a case of not only marriagte jitters, but like you said money problems. Could it that Mr Pugs wants to be financially sound before getting married? Finances are a huge amount of stress to anyone, not matter their relationship status.

[LoveMyPugs]

after typing that last post i thought for a bit and wanted to say that mr. pugs is under a lot of pressure.

1) get get married
2) to be a good provider. his job has been slow and he's stressing over money. he also wants to change careers and go back to school. i'm sure he worries about how we are going to aford that and also it's been seven years since he's been in school.
3) to decide how he feels about children. we talk about that a lot too.
4) to help around the house especially since i'm working full time again
5) he never has time to himself and when he does i don't make him feel great about vegging out in front of the tv to play video games or signing up for bowling tournaments.
6) we don't have health insurance and both of us have been sick a lot and it's like $120 or more every time we go to the doctor.
7) we don't have a lot of time together because we are both so busy.

It can't be easy for him. He's made comments before that he feels like he should have all his ducks in a row before getting married. I think he just puts so much pressure on himself to do the right thing and be the best guy. he really is wonderful and I love him so much. I don't give him enough credit.

I guess if this relationship ends it will be my fault. He's a good guy and I want to see him happy. I'm just sorry I can't or don't.

[ketto]

I have to say pugs...I don't see anyone on this thread who sympathizes with him. In fact, I think we're all pretty much in agreement that he has to man up and give you what you deserve or risk what the two of you have had for so long.

[LoveMyPugs]

nothing can hurt at this point, most everyone here sympathizes with him so perhaps that will make him feel like he can open up. i'm desperate now. i don't want to get married to someone who isn't sure they want to marry me. i will marry him anyway because i love him and i don't want to loose him and i think we will be happy when it's all said and done but everyone here seems to think the opposite. most people i talk to about this IRL say that he needs to man up and just marry me, especially the women i talk to and even most of the men. this is really the first time i've had women telling me i'm making a big mistake. everyone is telling him the same thing about just being a man and marrying me. shit, i've told him that myself. i'm so frustrated with the whole thing i haven't listened as well as i should and i haven't been very nice to him. i'm just upset. well, i gotta get to work. talk to you later. i told him to stop in here and read what's been said. he's busy but i'm sure he'll find time. i can't worry about it anymore. i love him. i want to be married. we're set for a little over a month from now. the ball is really in his court. if he doesn't want to get married he needs to just for once be straight with me. it will be hard but i want to know the truth and i don't want to hear I DON'T KNOW anymore.

pugs

[zoya]

.... if you're not comfortable with, or worried about him reading stuff here, don't tell him about it or tell him to read it. It's your decision. I don't mean you have to keep things secret from him, I'm just suggesting that if you want to keep it private, do so. You're not obligated to do anything you're not comfortable doing. This is a sounding board, and you asked for input to help YOU. There's nothing saying that he has to read this if you're not comfortable with it. just sayin.

[LoveMyPugs]

Mr. pugs and I agreed not to talk about this anymore and that if he doesn't want to get married or wants me to cancel the wedding that he needs to be straight with me. That was on Saturday night. I think that was a relief for him. Things have been good since then at home but now that I've brought all this back up here in the lounge I'm again questioning if we are doing the right thing. I worry about suggesting to him that he sign on here and read my and everyone else's posts. I think it will make him angry again to have to defend his feelings. Perhaps I'll tell him to stop here if he wants to talk about what's going on in his head. Some time's I understand him more when he writes something down then when we are trying to talk about something that's been exhausted face to face. I'll tell him to check out this thread.

Thanks everyone,

Sheena

[LoveMyPugs]

You should feel loved, wanted and valued by your man NOW. If you don't have self-esteem issues then mr pugs is not playing his part as he should be making you feel loved, wanted and valued; as a husband it does not magically mean that he's going to be able to make you feel that way.

you are right

[bunnyb]

Fine, you don't have self-esteem issues. I don't really care either way but I think you're deflecting from the issue at hand. I guess I have to repeat myself again and say that I do not think that you have self esteem issues because you want to get married, I am not an idiot. I was simply responding to your post about not feeling loved, wanted, valued because mr pugs doesn't want to marry you; you don't need marriage to be any of those things and I find it concerning that you think that you do and that there is something deep down that makes you feel that way. You should feel loved, wanted and valued by your man NOW. If you don't have self-esteem issues then mr pugs is not playing his part as he should be making you feel loved, wanted and valued; as a husband it does not magically mean that he's going to be able to make you feel that way. Anyway, I've broken down what I said to its bare bones in the hope that you may get it; flog me, chastise me, criticise me, put words in my mouth and make an issue about what one person has said to you rather than face the problems YOU brought up, but I'm not playing anymore. This is your problem, pugs, and you posted in here for opinions and/or criticism - constructive or not- and you got it; I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said but them's the breaks.

Also, you have no right whatsoever to pressure somebody into doing something they don't want to do but I don't think you're ever going to see that; the heart wants what the heart wants.

[LoveMyPugs]

ch - i feel like bunnyb is saying that because i want to get married to the man i love and have spent 13 years with that i have bad self esteam issues. i also feel like thirties girl is saying that i was stupid for waiting eight years for him to propose. that i should have left long ago. that's why i'm saying what i'm saying. i don't have self esteam issues. i know i will be fine on my own. i'm graduating in may, i make good money and i'm a good person. so why do i have self esteam issues? you know i come on here and i put my whole life on this thread for everyone to judge and then i get told that i have self esteam issues. maybe i did just want someone to say everything will be okay. maybe i do want people to say that they understand my frustration. that i've talked to mr. pugs till i'm blue in the face. i've built him up, encouraged him and loved him more then anyone else over the years and i feel like i deserve something for that. being told that i have no right to "pressure" him is bullshit. i have every right. i've given him a lot and i don't think i expect a lot in return other then to be his wife.

[rogue]

First of all I want to say that I hope that this is not an intrusion on this discussion because now (and a year and a half ago when I used to post here under a different name) I’ve never really conversed a lot with you, Pugs, although I highly value(d) your posts and opinions. I have been lurking in this thread for the past day, reading what has been said back and forth, mostly because once I saw that you were back in the Lounge I was very glad to see it. Like I said, your posts always just meant something to me; you are a very smart woman and I respected what you said then and say now. I still do. Like I said, I hope that my commenting is not unwarranted.

It only dawned on me this morning when I was getting ready for work that my own opinion might be reasonable here. Obviously it is okay if it is not accepted or taken; I am definitely not pushing this on your or any other Bustie. I just thought that in Mr. Pugs' absence, my "advice" (I hesitate to call it that) might be something of interest because if he really feels that he is being pressured into marriage then he and I are in the same boat because I too am being pressured to be married to Rougeboy. This just started recently and there is a lot of back-story to it that I won't get into unless asked, but IF that is how Mr. Pugs is feeling I can tell you how awful it actually feels. I am not saying that you are pressuring him, Pugs, or that your wanting to be married is wrong because I think that after having dated for 13 years and being engaged for 4 of those years you have every right to want to be married; I don't disagree with that at all. I would feel the same as you do, if I was in your situation.

After reading all the commentary in this thread and thinking about it for a bit, I do have to agree that there must be some underlying issue with Mr. Pugs if he suddenly does not want to get married. I feel that him saying that he does not know any happily married couples might be something to get him off the hook for his feelings. I don't know many happily married couples myself - my own parents divorced when I was four years old and do not speak at all – but I still want to get married someday. It took only one relationship to teach me that if my boyfriend answers the question of “what do you want for us?” with an “I don’t know” I get the heck out of there as “I don’t know” rarely turns into a “yes, I love you, let’s be together” (again, in my experience). It is not my place to say you should leave Mr. Pugs and I am not saying that, but there is something bothering him about getting married and I don’t believe that it is just because he doesn’t know any happily married people. I know that you and he love one another very much – that is evident from the posts you have both made in the Lounge - but I think that the counseling idea might be a really good one. I know that this situation is not what you need right now, what with the wedding being next month, but it might be something to look into. I know that cancelling all the bookings seems like it would be so embarrassing (I would feel the same way myself) but it would be better than being married to someone who doesn’t want to be married to you, if that is really what the issue is.

This is getting long and I don’t want to go on much more, but I hope I am not being too presumptuous when I say that we are all here for you, Pugs. We love you here at the Lounge and we do want what is best for you and Mr. Pugs as well. This is an all-around shitty situation but it can get better. I don’t think you are wrong for wanting to be married; I think you are completely justified in your desire to marry Mr. Pugs. I just don’t think that you should go forward with the marriage at this time if he is having such serious doubts. I know from my personal experiences that if Rougeboy and I had a date set even six months from now, the way I am feeling about our relationship would prevent me from marrying him no matter what the cost until we have our shit sorted out (and there is some serious shit that needs sorting). I would not be able to marry someone who has such reservations. I am sure that he loves you – I would go so far to say that I am convinced that he loves you – but there is just something there that is scaring him and that needs to be sorted out before you take that step down the aisle.

Again, I am sorry if this is an intrusion of your privacy. I wish you nothing but the best and hope that everything works out the way it should. I hope that you are relaxing and trying to find some clarity in all this and I am sending warm vibes your way. =) (((Pugs)))

[culturehandy]

I really have to ask, Pugs, why are you referring to yourself in such a negative way? You said you thought you were weak, stupid and referred to yourself as an idiot. This totally isn't the case, so why do you keep onn referring to yourself this way?

No one here is saying you are bad or weak or unfeminist or anything like that for wanting to get married. This boils down to the fact that one, you love mr. pugs and you want to marry him, the question is, what's going on in his head. We know what's going in yours.

[LoveMyPugs]

thirtiesgirl - just to explain that i'm not a complete idiot

we met when i was 14 and he was 16. we were kids. i was just going into high school. so it's not unthinkable that we didn't get engaged until i was 22 and he was 24. that's not a bad age to propose to a girl. that's why it took him eight years to propose. actually, he promised to propose many times but he was in college, working full time and didn't have the money for a ring. i was also in college and working part time. we didn't live together either. once we moved out we were renting a small apartment on one income = no money then we bought a house = no money then i lost my job = no money then i went back to school = no money. for us there was never a good time during the past 13 years because either 1) our parents thought we were too young and we probably were or 2) we finally were out on our own and couldn't afford it.

[thirtiesgirl]

I'm of the same mind as LMP and some of you regarding the desire to be married. It's important to me and something I want for myself. If I'm in a long term relationship, I'm in it with the expectation that we're working towards marriage. That said, though, I wouldn't have waited 9 years to get engaged in the first place. If he can't figure it out in 3 or 4, I won't waste any more of my time.

I have now bent over, grabbed my ankles and assumed the position. You may spank me for my transgressions.

[bottleblack]

Pugs..I agree with girltrouble. 13 years! I was antsy for my fiance to propose to me after a year! I just knew that he was it for me and it was what we both wanted. I could never marry someone who didn't completely want to marry me too. But that's just me. I think you have to look deep down for this..yes you love him and he loves you..but you want to get married and he doesn't! I can't believe how that must make you feel. Maybe he needs an ultimatum.
And I don't think it's weakness OR low self esteem to want to marry the man that you love, so don't feel that way!

[missladyj]

((((pugs)))) I hope you get a chance to take a deep breath and know that there are alot of people here who want you to be happy.

You are the only person who can decide in the end what is right for you and your situation. That having been said if you have been together for 13 years, engaged for 4 and still not married, that is total bullshit!! If he doesn't know what he wants, and you want to get married it sounds like you want different things .

If he can't shit then he needs to get off the pot and you need to move on. What a waste of time. I agree with gt on this

I could never understand couples who would live together or stay together for ages without being married.
But then I have to lighten up and realize what has worked for me, doesn't work for everyone. Every relationship is different and everyone needs to find their own path.

I refused to live with hubby if we weren't married because I was not fuckin around . When we were dating I straight up told him that if he wanted to live with me he had to marry my ass. I wasn't saying it to force his hand but because that was how I felt. IF he wanted to commit to me he had to go all the way. We were engaged for 6 months, moved into our first apartment and week later eloped to Vegas. 8 years later we are still HAPPILY MARRIED( now you call tell Mr.Pugs you know a happily married couple)

whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck.

I want to share some quotes from Joseph Campbell's the Art of Living

" In marriage you are not sacrificing yourself to the other person, you are sacrificing yourself to the relationship"

" In marriage the woman is the initiator and the man rides along "

" marriage is not a love affair, it's an ordeal. It is a religious exercise , a sacrament, the grace of participating in another life"

" Woman is the guide to the sublime ,acme of sensuous adventure. By deficient eyes she is reduced to inferior states, by the evil eye of ignorance she is spellbound to banality and ugliness. but she is redeemed by the eyes of understanding. The hero who can take her as she is , without undue commotion but with the kindness and assurance she requires is potentially the king , the incarnate god of her created world"

[bottleblack]

starpiste..ouch that's harsh! It could be a deal breaker though. I haven't known too many people to change their mind about whether they want kids or not. That's not to say no one ever does.. but if you are seeing yourself with him in the long run, marriage, or even just being with him in five years or so..then I think it would be ever harder if you have to break it off with him at that point after all that time. I think you should try to discuss it further with him, try to talk calmly and understandingly to each other and maybe he will agree to see your side and be open to the possibility of children as well. If he is completely rock hard 100% against it even after civilized conversations then..well..he probably never wants kids..

[treehugger]

I just want to say....

(((((pugs))))) there is all this analyzing and hand-wringing, and I just want to offer you my thoughts, my comfort...I'll light a candle and hopefully send some peaceful thoughts your way tonight.

[kittenb]

I hope it isn't too late to say something. I hope that LMP is hanging around and reading and resting.

That my happiness should be second to his (IMO) unwarrented fears.
...another excuse to justify his other fears that are unwarrented.
he's put marriage off way too long and for no good reason.

I cut'n'pasted these comments b/c they jumped out at me. I am not defending the choices that the Mr. has made. However, LMP, I do worry that you are working very hard to invalidate and dismiss his feelings. To you they seem "unwarrented." But it seems that they are not to him. They are real and they will be a big part of him making a life-altering decision. If he feels that you are not hearing him, even if you feel that you are, how will that convince him that you two will be happy together?

I just want his complete commitment...

Getting married does not meant that you have that. It just means you got him to do what you wanted to do.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?

Nothing about wanting marraige makes you weak. Wanting marraige so bad that you are willing to marry someone who isn't ready or has changed his mind is concerning. BTW, why did it upset you that RV asked who would officiate the wedding?

If I look at someone I want and ask him what he wants and his answer is not "You," then all I know for sure is that I am not what he wants. That may change over time, but "I don't know" is not the same as saying "I want you in my life but I am not ready for this." If you force this issue and marry him without resolving these conflicts for good, will you ever feel that you really have him or will you always worry that he will leave if things get rough and you fail to be the "perfect wife" (placed in quotes b/c there is no such thing. I think you are taking on way to much of the blame/responsibility in making all of this perfect.)

{{{LMP}}}

[bunnyb]

I can't wait to put an ivory dress on and become Mrs Jones, doesn't mean I have self-esteem issues. I told pugs that I think she has low self-esteem issues because I think she does; I also said that it didn't have anything to do with her thoughts on marriage. We have different opinions of pugs, gt, and that's cool; and I'm sure she agrees with your persepective. It's all good. The issue is that pugs and mr pugs are happy after this, married or not.