[dj-bizmonkey]

i participated in some research on body image and bi/gay women recently - anyone got any thoughts on whether being bi or gay helps you to distance yourself somewhat from societal pressure to look a certain way?

i am as straight as they come, but i have often wondered about this too. a looooooong time ago, when lux still posted in here, she mentioned how awful her girlfriend was to her about her small breasts. this kind of surprised me. i suppose my dime store analysis would be that lesbians/bi women share a common perspective in the world. maybe women's ability to see past the superficial in others translates to bi/lesbian relationships. one would think that these women would be more sympathetic to the societal pressures put on women and therefore more open and accepting of different physical forms. however, all women are subject to the same conditioning. i, like anarch, have more difficulty forgiving the bodily 'transgressions' of women than i do of men. in my mind, men aren't supposed to be beautiful in the way that women are. so, to answer your question beck, i don't know. those are just some thought.......

i'm glad that some of you echoed the big girl/small breasts sentiment. i feel like it can go the other way too, as in, it's okay to have small breasts if you are super skinny (i'm not ragging on you bean poles out there, i know that is the way nature made you! ) i am always looking for a celebrity/athlete example of a bigger woman with small breasts. i think the best examples must come from athletes, tennis players, soccer players, gymnists (karate peeps, wink wink).

((((small-busted busties))))

[beck]

on the percentage thing - 70% of the time I don't think about it at all, 20% I like what I see, 10% I don't. The 10% is not generally boob-related though, more when my skin flares up - i mostly like my small boobs and big butt but i am bothered by the bad skin on my chest. i'm all for variation and different shapes but let's face it, acne is never going to be sexy

the other things i don't like so much are my very pale skin (i practically glow in the dark) and my teeth, due to a slight misunderstanding between me and a wall when i was little...

but most of the time i think what the hell, i look alright - and if i don't, tough shit, i'm a smart and interesting person (on a good day) and would rather be judged on that - if someone misses out because they don't like my face, their loss. my beef is more about finding stuff that fits properly than dealing with self-esteem problems. i think it would be harder if i lived in the US as i get the impression people are better-groomed generally? (or am i just basing that on what i see on TV?)

i participated in some research on body image and bi/gay women recently - anyone got any thoughts on whether being bi or gay helps you to distance yourself somewhat from societal pressure to look a certain way?

i'm so with the big-footed Busties - it is such a pain (literally) finding shoes to fit my wide feet.

ETA: clearly not as smart as i like to think, at least not at maths, as i realised this morning that with those %s, i would be spending a crazy 5 and a half hours a day thinking about my appearance, and close to 2 hours a day mired in self-loathing. Probably more like 5 and a half minutes, and 2 minutes. but i can't possibly work out those as percentages...

Sorry for crazy long post!

[Vendetta]

I'm not trying to fit any society's mold by thinking about surgery or anything, I pretty much love the rest of my body and when "I loved myself" I would just put on a padded bra and focus on the rest of my to-my-eyes perfect body. I never dealt with my flat-chest cause I didn't wanted to and I never saw myself as a flat-chested gal cause I didn't wanted to either and when I'm dressed up with my padded bra I'm perfect. The guys I've been with never mentioned it before. Now that someone has pointed out my "fault" I had to start dealing with it at 24 years-old when I'm trying more than never to be the woman I feel inside and realised the padded bras were the breasts I never had and somehow believed I did had them. Go figure. I have got nothing against flat-chests but I just don't see myself that way. That is not the way I dress up, that is not the way I behave and that is not the way I see myself. I have been avoiding reality since my 11 years old.

[neurotic.nelly]

Glad to hear you are going to therapy, Vendetta, and thanks for posting the link to that documentary. Now my mission this week is to find it!

anarch, you're so right about building ourselves back up! It's so important to be replace the critique in our heads with a cheerleader(s).

knorl05, if you're lurking, come out and play!

[anarch]

when you said:
"In my eyes, the imperfect is much more interesting and sexy."

I'd love to take credit for that, but it was neurotic.nelly. I also loved that she said that.

Confession: I've found it's easier for me to see the sexiness of imperfect men's features than women's. Cultural conditioning, I guess. I am glad to say that at least it's asier for me to see the sexiness of women's imperfections now, than before I started to consciously try to change my thinking. It's been a long road though.

Meant to add last night how important it is to treat ourselves as we would treat our best friends. Best friend tears herself down? We talk her back up and point out all the ways she's wonderful. All the many ways that overshadow what she thinks are irredeemable flaws. I think for a lot of us, it takes practice to be kind to ourselves.

[karategrrl]

anarch, you opened my eyes to something when you said:
"In my eyes, the imperfect is much more interesting and sexy."

You know, I have always been much more attracted to men and women who have something offbeat or interesting about their look, not meeting some "perfection" ideal--think Jeff Goldblum, Tim Robbins, Uma Thurman, and that French Playoby model someone posted a link to (Lou Dillard?)...Chippendale models or those "perfect" male bodies make me yawn. Soooo.....
WHY am I not holding myself to those same standards and celebrating my small breasts and, shit, even big feet as what makes me gorgeous, in an offbeat way???? I ahave been holding myself to the "perfection" standard and never realized it. Duh!

purplestain, you coldn't have said it better.:
"I think the option of a boob job is what is most torturous. If the surgery didn't exist, we'd might still dislike our bodies, but I don't think we'd obsess about them as much. When the option of change isn't there, we're forced into tolerance, if not complete acceptance."

I totally agree, and I've voiced this opinion here previously, though not as eloquently as you did. Choices are good, but too many, I think, can often wreak havoc. With surgery, we are not embracing the "vive la difference" mindset. I look back on the '70s (when I was a kid) sometimes with nostalgia. I remember small-breasted women running around with those little clingy polyester camisoles, all manner of nipplage showing. Not an implant in sight, nor discussion of "Are those real or fake??" Ah...<sigh> the good old days!

Yeah, DJ, I'd fit right in with the Flintstone clan! I told my friend yesterday (who, thank Goddess, bought those shoes off me that hurt me so much!) "Hey, at least in hurricane conditions, I won't topple over!" She said she'd be sure and grab my ankles for safety in the event of severe weather conditions! Ha!

Sometimes you gotta laugh over this shit.

[Vendetta]

Yep, the option of a boob job is tortuous... I'm seeing a therapist and have been taking some medication cause I have become such an anxious person to the point I don't sleep, eat badly and has been difficult for me to feel good about my life, myself, anything. A lot of things had happened in my life in the past two and a half years and, I don't know... bad things keep happening and I need a new way to deal with them.
The boob issue has been consuming me too. It made me lose my trust in myself, in my bf, it took away from me my libido, sex life and self-love. I'm a total mess and so is my relationship.
I won't say I won't go for surgery. I'm also seeing the therapist to try to stop wishing that but I can't predict if that is going to happen. She says that in "the end" if I still want it this bad, then it's something that perhaps needs to be done, in order to take the issue out of the table and I can be able to stop thinking about it. Only time will tell.
Have you seen the movie / documentary "Flatly Stacked"? http://www.filmakers.com/indivs/FlatlyStacked.htm
I haven't, i'm trying to find it somewhere. It must be interesting!

Kisses t'ya all

[purplestain]

Newbie, but I've been lurking on this topic for so long I had to post.

I think the option of a boob job is what is most torturous. If the surgery didn't exist, we'd might still dislike our bodies, but I don't think we'd obsess about them as much. When the option of change isn't there, we're forced into tolerance, if not complete acceptance.

Whenever your thoughts start looping around in that self-loathing way, go do something else to distract you - preferably, something that makes you feel strong and capable. This technique also applies to my even-worse body image issue: body hair. My arm hair has been the bane of my life for years; I've been through bleaching, waxing, Nairing, you name it. Now, when I catch myself looking at it and thinking, "if I could just wax this whole bit..." I do one of two things.

1a) Pretend that the hair cannot be removed. "Hairy arms, just as God made me. Oh well."
1b) MOVE ON WITH LIFE.
2. Think of all the great things I do with my arms that have NOTHING to do with how much hair is on them.

[anarch]

reading books that critique beauty standards, capitalism, and saturating my psyche with images of alternative beauty

yes, these were and are key for me, too. And surrounding myself with women and men who question conventional beauty standards, too, so that I don't have to feel so alone in doing all that heavy lifting. (Speaking of which, thank cod, again and always, for all of you here.)

I went to a Victoria's Secret store today, to see if their Semi-Annual Sale had any XS bikinis that would make me look good. The first one I tried made me look entirely flat and 3 others just didn't do anything for my body, but I found one with a cut that suits my boobs and shows them to best advantage, hallelujah. Half price, too. Not ideal colours, but they'll do, and a good cut makes up for a lot.



Vendetta, this is really late (I've moved cross-country in the last few months so I've been reading Bust occasionally but not taking time to write), but I wanted to join in supporting you when you posted about bf issues, a while back. And to post apologies for probably having made unjustifiable assumptions in some earlier posts, about where some of the feelings you expressed were coming from. I'm really glad you're here.

[neurotic.nelly]

just a really quick post here,

feet: when i was younger, i hated my feet because they were longer than average, size 10/11, very narrow and i thought i looked like a clown. but as time has passed, i've realized that my feet fit my height and i am generally happy with them now.

boobs: my breasts are not symmetrical and i don't care. i pretty much love them, and i thank goddess they have a little cush! sometimes, i wish they were bigger, i hate admitting this though. i got upset with my bf a few weeks ago for singing something about little breasts after he surprisingly groped me. he didn't say anything bad about them, but somehow I took offense, and then I felt guilty for getting upset about it because i thought i was over this, and again, he didn't say anything was wrong with them at all. *shruggs shoulders*

Somehow, I have completely rejected societies dominant standards of beauty. Somehow, *rolls eyes*, the somehow happened by reading books that critique beauty standards, capitalism, and saturating my psyche with images of alternative beauty. In my eyes, the imperfect is much more interesting and sexy. I flaunt my imperfections when I am feeling beautiful and confident about them!

[starship]

i love it when there's loads to read in here

I have issues with pretty much most parts of my body but my focus is usually on my breasts. People say if you had bigger boobs you'd just find something else to complain about but i dont think that's true. Sure I'd probably still moan about other bits but to say that Id still not be satisfied is like saying Ive created this boob issue just so I have something to complain about.
Ive thought that too DJ-biz. Im naturally a very skinny person (skinny, not slim ) and Ive often wondered how my boobs would change if I put on weight, if at all. Ive tried to put on some weight but it just doesnt happen. It seems like most of my body hang ups stem from being skinny (small boobs, long awkward arms&legs, bones showing all over the place lol. gross). My mother was always slightly larger than me when younger and a A/B cup. She's now put on some weight and seems to have changed proportionately so i guess Id be the same. Thankfully I have a waist & bum so avoid completely resembling a 14year old boy. As i am now I think I'd look in proportion with a Bcup. C or higher and I'd look 'large' and probably a little odd.
I try to be positive looking in the mirror but it's not usually that sucessful. I actually don't even know what I look like anymore. Sounds stupid but when i see photos of myself I always wonder if thats what i really look like or if it's just a strange camera angle or something. Shows how distorted my body image must be. In a way I hate how technology has led to everyday photography being so accessible. I cant seem to go a day without being snapped on someone's phone or digital camera. Usually ending up on facebook etc. I try to avoid looking at them or I'll spend ages scrutising how odd my elbow looks or something equally ridiculous. whoops derailment.
I dislike my teeth too edie. and my face:/. I think my problem must be focusing on individual features/body parts rather than myself as a whole. I get compliments and male attention so Im sure I cant be as hideous as i sometimes feel. I usually end up opting for the 'at least they work and afre healthy' pick-me-up though. A friend my age was recently diagnosed with cancer which definately put things into perspective for me. I also visited an elderly relative in hospital last week. I was in a ward of old people who's bodies were failing them to the point it was painful to look at. It just made me think how i should just love and enjoy my body now because in years to come Ill probably be wishing to have it back. It's cliched but life really is too short to give a damn

[strongirl]

No time to say much right now but wow, a bunch of good posts in this last flurry. And try this on: instead of thinking "I like this part of my because it comes close to meeting our cultural standard" how about "I like this part of my body because it has X quality that I personally enjoy and appreciate and F__ it if it doesn't meet anyone else's standards"?

I do agree with you DJ about the hidden subtext in the "celebrate your curves" thing - it feels like "it's ok if you have a fat belly as long as you have big boobs" to me too. Which those tops you guys were talking about a while back - fitted over the tits but like maternity tops through the body - those are designed with that same perspective. Which is fine, if I had a body that fit that style I'd be happy. But I don't, LOL.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i think i'm in a bad spot with my body in general right now. like i said before, getting back to normal for me is going to take some time. i think back to how obsessed i was with my weight in high school. it was so stupid. what i wouldn't give to have that body again. sheesh. for me, i always felt that, hey, my boobs are small, but that's fine because i have a big round butt, a tiny waist and a flat stomach. my butt isn't going anywhere, but my waist has expanded, and i'm feeling more like a log these days than a pear. i know better than to be so negative about myself, but i just can't get back in shape soon enough.

i've got the wide feet too, karategrrl. when point-toe shoes came back into fashion i was lost. seriously. they are flintstone feet, two wide bricks with short, stubby toes. thank god i live in a place where flip-flops are acceptable year-round. i worry less about feet because they are so utilitarian.

back to breasts, sort of. this is going to sound completely f****d up, but i have always thought how doubly hard life would be for a woman who is both overweight and small breasted. there are all these ad campaigns telling us to 'celebrate our curves,' or people describe a woman as 'voluptuous,' i feel like the fine print is talking soley about their breasts. i guess it is the reverse of my body logic (i have small breasts, but my stomach is flat) to something like, i may be overweight but i've got big breasts. i think right now, i'm mired in my own insecurity, my own fear that i am going to be that woman. i hope i don't hurt anyones feeling by what i just said, and i might draw some heat, but i had to put it out there. it's been this nasty, negative thought at the back of my mind.

[edie52]

I've been thinking about this. Despite my gripes about my boobs and my participation in this thread, I truly like my body, most of the time. I do focus on the boob issue though, just because my boobs are truly tiny and I compare myself to everyone else (99.5% of whom have bigger ones), and maybe also because I think the rest of my body is pretty great and if I had bigger boobs it would be "perfect." Though I'm sure I'd find something else that bothered me. So my "numbers" are probably 70% feeling good about my body, though if I removed the boob issue it would be about 95%. I especially like my long legs which curve out to medium-sized hips, and my small waist.

Actually, most of my insecurity is actually focused on my face, because there are way more perceived flaws there than on my body, and I feel like it's harder to mask or transform the face than the body. I don't think I'm a hideous freak, I know I'm cute or pretty to some, but I'm self-conscious about my teeth and a few other features and I'm also freaked out that I'm going to age badly. I always wish that I'd gotten braces in high school. I've been compared to certain celebrities (like Charlotte Gainsbourg for one), and I like looking at photos of her to try to feel better about myself, but then I realize that I don't actually look like her. I'm just kind of the same type.

I definitely try to be grateful that my body is functional and healthy. I've had a few health scares and afterwards I always feel awful about having taken it for granted. It can be kind of empty to say "just be happy you're healthy," but if anyone else has had a brush with illness or knows someone who has it really hits home.

[neurotic.nelly]

generally when i look into the mirror, i like what i see. positive self talk is essential.

l

[karategrrl]

The reason I bring this up is that the focus of the book was to learn to love your body and treat it well, not to abuse it and hate it and try to use it just to impress other people. Give it healthy food, and invigorating exercise, and sexual pleasure, not criticism and starvation. One of the techniques in the book was "mirror work" where one had to stand in front of the mirror for some amount of time, viewing one's body with love and appreciation. Every time harsh or critical thoughts came in, replace them with loving, approving thoughts. Instead of "my thighs are fat" think "my thighs are big and powerful". So I wonder if this can be used for breast issues...tonight I will be looking in the mirror thinking "my tits are cute and perky" and banish any negative thoughts.


Shouldn't the goal of all of this be to 1) love and appreciate and enjoy our own bodies and 2) love and appreciate and enjoy other people's too?

Hey strongirl, so glad you dealt with the eating disorder and have been healthy now for 30 yrs. (and to do it by via your own personal, inner strength is really something to be proud of too!)

But I digress...yeah, mirror work and positive thinking. I've been getting better at catching the negative thoughts when they happen and replacing them with positive ones. What's tough for me, though, is that, for example, having narrower feet would make my life tons easier in terms of buying shoes (and since I work in a corporate environment, clothing and appearances are things I have to be concerned with). I do replace thoughts of, "I hate my wide feet" with "My feet serve me well," "My feet are healthy, they carry me around, I'm fortunate to have feet," etc. But the truth is, it would still be easier to buy shoes if they weren't so fucking big!! Ha. I am trying--hard--but I'm still not at the point where I'd say I prefer my wide feet for any reason.

I'm working on it, though, and you have inspired me, so thanks!

[strongirl]

DJ and Karate, your posts remind me of other body image issues. It's funny, for most of my younger years I was much more obsessed about staying thin than having bigger breasts and I think that might have been the times/culture - maybe some of you who are older like me (47) can weigh in on that (pun intended). But back then it seemed everyone wanted to be Twiggy, not Pam Anderson. I had an eating disorder during my college years and found a book called Fat is a Feminist Issue by Susie Orbach that might have saved my life, since I was binging/purging and all that crazy shit. I did the mental exercises in the book and have been a healthy eater and a healthy weight since then (yikes, almost 30 yrs now).

The reason I bring this up is that the focus of the book was to learn to love your body and treat it well, not to abuse it and hate it and try to use it just to impress other people. Give it healthy food, and invigorating exercise, and sexual pleasure, not criticism and starvation. One of the techniques in the book was "mirror work" where one had to stand in front of the mirror for some amount of time, viewing one's body with love and appreciation. Every time harsh or critical thoughts came in, replace them with loving, approving thoughts. Instead of "my thighs are fat" think "my thighs are big and powerful". So I wonder if this can be used for breast issues...tonight I will be looking in the mirror thinking "my tits are cute and perky" and banish any negative thoughts.

The other thing about my eating disorder and healing from it is that even though I don't have this body type, I realized I truly do love fat women's bodies and I had a lot of anger about society's (at the time) total hatred for them. Most of the women in my family are large, bordering on obese, and I always loved hugging their big soft bodies and snuggling up in their laps. And just because they are big doesn't mean they are not fit. My mom is over 70, has always been fat, and still swims a mile a day.

Shouldn't the goal of all of this be to 1) love and appreciate and enjoy our own bodies and 2) love and appreciate and enjoy other people's too?

[karategrrl]

Hey DJ, I like your signature and avatar. Those gibbons--apes, as I now know--are cute!

I can't attach percentages to my body image, but I must say my insecurity is higher when there's a really hot woman or women with large breasts around.

All dressed up and makeup-ed, I usually feel good about me. It varies otherwise. In PJs around the house and with hair all in a mess, sometimes I feel like a frumpster and sometimes I just say, "f*ck it, this is who I am!"

Interesting note: I have wide feet, and it's just as difficult for me to find shoes that fit as it is to find bras. (Yes, like finding a needle in a haystack.) Last week I bought a cute pair of shoes that actually fit me (and were on sale)!

Well, this is what today has been like:

This morning: I'll wear my cute new shoes!
After 1 hour: shoes killing me! (due to seams rubbing on my almost-bunions, which would not be an issue if not for my feet being so wide in this area!)
After 5 hours: Thoughts of "What I'd give to have narrower feet" replaced usual thoughts of "What I'd give to have larger breasts."

Ugh.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i KNOW! this always drives me crazy. what i wouldn't do for a full b-cup. i don't want to be huge, just a little bigger. while surfing the web i came across one of those wiki 'how to's'. it was all about 'how to' enhance your chest if you had small breasts. some of the tips were helpful and constructive, but there was one line that irked me. it said: "do you have low self-esteem or do you really have small breasts?" i guess i understand where they were going with this, i.e. those women who have b or c cups and think that they are small. but it bothered me, like having small breasts would automatically give you low self-esteem.

as for my percentages, they ain't great these days. my boobs are bigger, but so is the rest of me. i'm not fat, y'all, but i'm overweight. i'm still dealing with the physical manifestation of a deep depression this spring. i used to be very confident, even though i always wished for bigger breasts, i was confident in the rest of my body. now i feel icky about every inch of it. ugh. getting back in shape is such a slooooooooow and disheartening process.

[karategrrl]

Makes me think how mad these women are who pay thousands to get 'big boobs' despite already having perfectly good B/C cups. Id be over the moon to have what they consider small and inadequate

I SO feel you!