[crazyoldcatlady]

ah yes, thanks for the bump. this is the one i was looking for. in the "this just in" thread i posted about the vatican reiterating that women can't be preists, and moreover, will be kicked out if they tried. i've been chewing on this for a few days. and whilst the comment about the space aliens isn't a papal decree, it really makes me wonder wtf they're smoking over there...


... but then i'm reminded of a great bill mahr quote (paraphrased) "You can't be a normal, rational human being and go to work 6 days a week and then on Sunday put on a suit and drink the blood of a 2000-year old Space God."

[girltrouble]

amen to that faerie...

[faerietails2]

*bump for crazyoldcatlady*

I too am having a moment of anti-Christianity/seeing red right now. I just read a message from my sister (who got re-baptized last week and is getting brainwashed reintroduced to The Self-Righteous Life by going to her boyfriend's Baptist church). Anyway, she occasionally says stupid shit like "too bad insert famous dead person's name here wasn't christian, because they had so many awesome qualities." Fuck that.

In the words of Marylin Manson, "Who wants to go to Heaven with all those asshole angels?"

[dj-bizmonkey]

here's a link to the PBS nova program about the dover pennslyvania school board case about intelligent design (aka creationism). you can watch it online for free here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/program.html

what i find most disturbing about that whole case is that judge jones and the plaintiffs received numerous hate mail, death threats and other forms of harassment. i also got to hear one of the plaintiff witnesses (barbara forrest) speak on campus yesterday.

[pixiedust]

Yeah, Being here in the Bible Buckle, I've encountered a lot of the religious right, however, I also happen to know members of some of the larger evangists families here in town are Gay. The church I go to now has their mission statement and philosphy built on inclusion. No where in thier information have I ever seen anything that specifically mentions homosexuality, but I have heard it said severl times that our church welcomes all people without exception or judgement. Of course they go on to say if someone is doing wrong they will dotheir best to guide and support them to change. But again, nothing specifically mentioning homosexuality. We have a very large prison ministry in our church and several people who hold high positions in our church are excons, so some of that may be directed at that.

[roseviolet]

Here's a little info on the Disciples of Christ's policy on homosexuality.

"In 1997, the Disciples of Christ urged the enactment of 'legislation on local, state and national levels which will end the denial of civil rights and the violation of civil liberties for reasons of sexual orientation.'

The resolution specifically recognized that 'the church, among other elements of society, has contributed to the persecution and suffering of homosexuals, and it is its culpability in this regard which provides one reason for seeking a more enlightened understanding.'"

Pretty amazing stuff if you ask me. My father attended the national meeting at which this was discussed (my father is/was a minister in the Christian church). At that meeting, they began to discuss whether homosexuals should be welcomed as members of the church and whether they should be allowed to be ministers. My father voted in favor of these measures. As I understand it, they decided that this issue should be handled by region (I still don't understand that). In most of the country, gays are welcome, equal members of the church, but there are a few areas where only celibate homosexuals are allowed to be ordained (Texas is one state, as well as some places in New England I think). I suspect that in time, those churches will loosen their restrictions to match the policy of the rest of the church or they will seperate from the Disciples of Christ denomination. Time will tell.

By the by, the official stance of the Disciples of Christ on abortion is Pro-Choice.

And I haven't even started talking about the Society of Friends - aka Quakers. My husband was raised as a Quaker. That denomination has been very active in the fight for civil rights for all sorts of people.

My point is that there are a LOT of differences from one denomination to another within Christianity. The so-called Religious Right gets a lot of attention, but there are some rather liberal churches out there, too.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i think that comes from the catholic seperation between the sex act and the compulsion or drive to do it for a catholic priest, ALL sex is off limits, including homosexual sex, so it shouldn't matter what their orientation is. i remember reading through one of those catholic teen handbooks. they had a whole section on 'my buddy's gay.' the emphasis is on that this boy not act on his desires, but that he as a person was not evil. but catholic priests have alot more on their hands than dealing with gay priests. sex abuse much? it isn't some stereotype being blown out of proportion. there is a major coverup that is and has been going on for a looooong time. that being said, my old catholic priest was one of the most compassionate, effective and understanding man of faith i've ever encountered. just goes to show, just because there is a stereotype, it is essential to evaluate people as individuals.

[tesao]

gays and lesbians can be ordained in some religious sects in the US, as well. it depends on the religion and the sect.

i believe that only the Catholic Church won't allow priests to be "out". there are certainly enough priests that are homosexual.

i also have a very close gay male friend who is an ordained Cantor. he stated in his entrance forms/exams that he was gay. he wanted his religion to be a large part of his life, but not at the expense of his self and self-worth.

[kittenb]

i my humble opinion, i think that homophobia is really about gynophobia, our fear and hatred of the feminine.

Off-topic, but yes! Yes, I totally agree.

[dusty]

Maybe in your church, Pixie. Around here, gays and lesbians are ordained ministers.

[pixiedust]

i think this is at the crux of my utter disbelief in a theistic god. as human beings, we have placed our own values, qualifiers and constructions on god. we've put god in a box that fits with some of our natural human tendencies. unfortunately, one of those tendencies is fear of the other and one towards being exclutionist.

I totally agree with you there. I really don't know what I think about gays and religion. It's always been one of those hush hush things you never talk about in church. But I don't think the Bible really says all that much one way or the other. It's a point I have struggled with personally for a long time. I have been/am attracted to some women, though I don't think I'd go as far as to label myself bisexual. My one lone experience was pretty dismal. And I have friends who are gay that I love to death.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i think this is at the crux of my utter disbelief in a theistic god. as human beings, we have placed our own values, qualifiers and constructions on god. we've put god in a box that fits with some of our natural human tendencies. unfortunately, one of those tendencies is fear of the other and one towards being exclutionist. it's not that i cannot conceive of an immense spiritual force that somehow exerts influence in our lives. that is entirely probably to me. but the god that is made available to us through organized religion is, for lack of a better word, fabricated. we made it up. just like the sumerians made up gozar, the greeks made up zeus, the vikings made up freya. so many of the rules and regulations are so arbitrary and at their root, meaningless in a spiritual sense. how about people obey the golden rule, treat all other beings (not just humans) the way they would like to be treated. every other commandment flies in the face of this tenant. and it isn't a tenant you can only hold if you are a christian. anyone can subscribe to this way of thinking without also covering their head, kneeling in a church, being baptised, what have you.

i my humble opinion, i think that homophobia is really about gynophobia, our fear and hatred of the feminine. patriarchy cannot stand up if the feminine is recognized as valuable and important. but i could go off on a really long tangent here that has nothing to do with religion, per se. suffice to say, the major organized religions are (whether you like it or not) systems which allow, condone and enforce oppression and patriarchy so it makes logical sense to me that if you devalue women as a whole and all that they are perceived to encompass, that you would also despise and denigrate homosexuals. Lesbians because they achieve sexual prowess/love in the complete absence of a man and gay men because they are perceived to act like women. what could be worse?! i mean, what is the ultimate insult to a man (other than maybe calling him a motherfucker)? call him a sissy, a pussy, a bitch. tell him he plays/throws/talks/runs/acts like a girl.

but i digress. i had a very religious boyfriend in high school who said to me, 'proof of god is that we can conceive of him.' at the time i thought it was very powerful. now, i am not so sure. i can conceive of alot of things but that isn't proof that they exist.

[dusty]

I don't believe God is anti-gay, or that God thinks that homosexuality is wrong. I'm not sure what exactly I believe about God, but I am really sure about that.

[faerietails2]

so if the serial killer finds God and asks for forgiveness, will he get into heaven? What about a gay scientist who was never baptized who finds a cure for cancer?

who knows? that's a whole 'nother debate in itself. (although if god does exist and excludes a good-hearted gay dude from heaven on the grounds of homosexuality, then god is an asshole and fuck him/her, imo. same re: good people from non-christian religions).

i'm just saying that in regards to the free will argument, in purely logical terms, goodness/wickedness/forgiveness has nothing to do with it. if one were to map it out like a math problem, saying that god is all-powerful/all-knowing and that people have free will just doesn't compute; pro-/anti-religious philosophers have been tackling that one for centuries.

ethics and morality? different story (and makes for much more interesting debate.

[nickclick]

All the talk about God being loving and forgiving is completely beside the point. It doesn't matter if you find the cure for cancer or end up becoming a serial killer. It doesn't matter if the to-be serial killer finds God or whatever before committing his first murder, thus ends up not becoming a serial killer. Yes, the "choices" you made in this life may have led you to that point of finding the cure for cancer or murdering/not murdering, but in theory, God already knew you'd make those choices, since s/he's all-knowing, so that's not free will. That's just living life "according to plan" (and I'm using that term in a really broad sense).

so if the serial killer finds God and asks for forgiveness, will he get into heaven? What about a gay scientist who was never baptized who finds a cure for cancer?

[faerietails2]

As for my take on how God can be all-knowing, all-powerful, all MAGNIFICENT and yet give us free will…………..well I really like what Roseviolet said, that’s like a perfect example! Look at it like a parent/child relationship. Our parents love us enough to let us take our own actions in life, to let us choose what we want to do, they let us live our own lives yet they are always there (well, SOME) when you need help, advice………basically everything.

And yet our parents are not omniscient, omnipresent, all-knowing, etc. God(s) is/are (supposed to be), whereas parents are fallible human beings.

It really doesn't matter if we have "choices" in life; if God knows all the possible choices and all the possible outcomes and knows which choice we will ultimately make (which s/he's supposed to, since s/he's God), that's not free will. That's doing what's "supposed" to happen. In other words, if God really is all-knowing/all-powerful, s/he isn't surprised by anything that happens, because s/he already knew what would happen.

All the talk about God being loving and forgiving is completely beside the point. It doesn't matter if you find the cure for cancer or end up becoming a serial killer. It doesn't matter if the to-be serial killer finds God or whatever before committing his first murder, thus ends up not becoming a serial killer. Yes, the "choices" you made in this life may have led you to that point of finding the cure for cancer or murdering/not murdering, but in theory, God already knew you'd make those choices, since s/he's all-knowing, so that's not free will. That's just living life "according to plan" (and I'm using that term in a really broad sense).

[konphusion26]

Just popping in to check on my girlies. Hope everyone is having a great week. Been a rough week and it just started. LOL Take it easy beauties.

~your girl,
Konphusion26

[SpRiNkLeS]

Hi girlies!! So nobody has posted anything today. Is everyone OK?!!!! HEh, no but seriously! Everybody is fine? Well ugh, what a night. My poor little guy’s been getting sick all over the place, and you know it’s not really the funnest to clean up while dealing with tantrums. It’s late, I’m exhausted, I totally need to BUST tonight. So hmmm, this is weird. I feel like I’m standing in the middle of a room talking to myself. It’s totally echoing you know.

As for my take on how God can be all-knowing, all-powerful, all MAGNIFICENT and yet give us free will…………..well I really like what Roseviolet said, that’s like a perfect example! Look at it like a parent/child relationship. Our parents love us enough to let us take our own actions in life, to let us choose what we want to do, they let us live our own lives yet they are always there (well, SOME) when you need help, advice………basically everything. I also liked what Bunny B said, “Why would He invest us with goodwill yet only allow us to do nice things?” Good point!! Well anyway it took me YEARS to get to the point where I was last year, I mean yeah maybe for me I had to hit rock bottom, but it took forever for me to really UNDERSTAND this whole concept. I was pissed off and crap at things that happened to me in my youth so I went off on a rampage for like years, just totally confused. Finally now I UNDERSTAND and it’s all been up hill since. This of course is my own personal experience but I totally do get how this concept is hard to…………have faith in. No you cannot SEE God with your own eyes, but once I FELT God, then I understood, and that was when I became a believer.

As for me, I could not live my life anymore without prayer. It’s like, once you know something you just cannot go back to NOT knowing. I feel like when I pray, well it is just between me and the Lord, and we are at our closest. He totally hears me everytime too, He also answers me everytime. Is it audible answers? NO. Do I wish it could be? Hell yeah!!!! But sometimes you just gotta have a little faith, you know? It is up to me to intelligently understand what He is telling me, and no it is not always easy. So I might totally screw up because I didn’t understand what God was telling me but then I not only learned from that experience, I also gained SO MUCH MORE than I thought. God knows all this of course, as he is “all-knowing” (I totally wanted to throw that in there again!) but it is up to us to make the right choice. And as it was mentioned, yes prayer personally gives me so much comfort.

Neurotic.Nelly: Thanks for telling me a bit more about Astrology, I can tell you are very passionate about this subject. I remember taking an Astronomy 101 class my freshman year of college, unfortunately the professor was a “text book professor” meaning he just taught and read strictly from the text. I could have learned the same had I stayed at home and slept in, read the text in bed, oooh maybe with a bowl of ice cream too! MOOSE TRACKS!!!!!!!!!!! Well the dude was so friggin boring he killed my initial interest on the subject. My ADD ran rampant in the class, I mean crap I would look at anything that moved………the guy in the baseball cap (was he hot? Turn around!), some girl with a frickin weird hairdo (did she even run a brush through it?), the tapping of pencils on thighs I saw down the row…..etc. However when it comes to Astrology, and because I am a firm believer in God, who created the Heavens and Earth, well I still don’t personally believe Astrology really has an impact on our personality traits. Also I could be wrong but isn’t Astrology just the STUDY of the influence that the stars may have on people? So that would mean that God did not actually create Astrology. He created the stars and stuff but he didn’t create all the many STUDIES we have. I don’t mean any disrespect at all, maybe I am wrong I guess I just don’t get it. I mean at least for me, my personality does NOT come from the stars, that’s for sure. At least for me. I feel like, you know those psychics? Well they will say something really vague about someone and that person will be all like, “Oh my gosh! That is SO me!” so then they think the psychic was right on. I of course have doubt with this. Uh………OH, ok so I just realized I helped the other view point. K well I guess it comes down to what we understand.

[neurotic.nelly]

---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so now I am caught up, done with that. Moving on, I personally don’t understand or agree with the concept of astrology and how the alignment of stars can predict our futures. HOWEVER I admit to reading up on my sign (Scorpio? Anyone know about this one?) sometimes just to see what is supposedly going to happen to me that day. I think it’s kinda fun! Plus I DO think actual scorpions are freakin cool, I mean they wait for their prey and then shoot venom. Those feisty little buggers are so cool!! To me reading astrology signs is just like eating a fortune cookie for the sole purpose of getting your fortune...as retarded as some that I've read turn out to be. Some can be so dissapointing! I actually didn’t know that just looking at Astrology was frowned upon though, I thought it was just ok as long as you understand that only God has mapped out our future. Not to sound like a kid but there’s nothing more awesome feeling than to go outside at night, look up at the stars and just feel so amazed. It’s so freakin beautiful up there!!!

As I understand it, astrology in no way claims to predict the future, psychic and remote viewers are more apt for this but even then, nothing is written in stone because the future depends on the choices that we make moment by moment. What astrology does do is give insights into personality traits, or qualities that an individual might possess, but no two people are the same because each person's full astrology chart is unique, like all of us here. There is your sun sign, your moon sign, your rising sign - all of which influence your personality, then each planet is in a different house as well.

Here's a sticking point for me, Sprinkles, you say, "I actually didn’t know that just looking at Astrology was frowned upon though, I thought it was just ok as long as you understand that only God has mapped out our future. Not to sound like a kid but there’s nothing more awesome feeling than to go outside at night, look up at the stars and just feel so amazed. It’s so freakin beautiful up there!!!"

Well, I thought God created everything, that would include astrology. Astronomy is the study of the cosmos and their position in space, and astrology is the study of how the position of the cosmos effects the human psyche. It is beautiful and it is all God's creation, in my opinion.

Also, I have recently come to the understanding that the universal language of the universe or of god is mathematics and sacred geometry as this would transcend all languages, words, misunderstandings, fabrications, manipulations, etc.

"The universe, our reality, is created by thought consciousness which manifests in physical reality through a geometric blueprint that we call Sacred Geometry. It repeats in cycles giving the illusion of linear time so we can experience emotions. The term "sacred geometry" is used by archaeologists, anthropologists, and geometricians to encompass the religious, philosophical, and spiritual beliefs that have sprung up around geometry in various cultures during the course of human history. It is a catch-all term covering Pythagorean geometry and neo-Platonic geometry, as well as the perceived relationships between organic and logarithmic curves." - www.crystallinks.com

[roseviolet]

Now would probably be a good time to bring up my mom's favorite scripture.

Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

Notice the use of the word "plans".
Basically, in the church in which I was raised, we were taught that God knows all of the differnt options - all of the various paths and potential outcomes - but it's still up to us. God may have a plan, but we can always follow our own plan.

In my family's church, they talk of our "Heavenly Father" or "Heavenly Mother" (yup, they say both interchangably). The idea is that God, like a parent, can't really make you be anything other than what you want to be. But a good, loving parent will be there for you as a source of comfort during times of trouble or as a guide or traveling companion along life's journey. They can give you advice and try to teach you Right and Wrong, but you as an individual still have to interpret that info yourself and decide for yourself what you want to do with it.

Anyway. That's my personal experience at my church.