[zoya]

GT - that's been bothering me, too - there is this huge pink elephant in the middle of the room that none of the media is addressing: that this woman has openly stated (to that very media, no less) that she is having all these kids expressly to somehow "fix" her dysfunctional childhood. When I heard her say that I literally felt nauseous. It's like young teenagers getting pregnant so they have someone to love and take care of. I don't doubt that she loves her children, but whoever allowed this woman to go to the lengths she did to have all these kids, is just plain irresponsible. I really feel that the media just ignoring the red flags of this woman is pretty damn irresponsible too.

I wonder if she went to Mexico to get it done - a lot of people in SoCal head down there to get prescription drugs for cheaper, or to get dental or medical work done for a fraction of the cost of the US...

[girltrouble]

the woman bothers me a bit, but what bugs me is the media cooing over the babies. yeah she had eight when she had seven already, but it seems to me she is a product of the media doing backflips everytime a group of 5 or more babies are born to one woman. they can't help themselves. did you hear ann curry's VO in her interview last night? she called them "deadly cute" really? they all look sickly since they are all in the ICU and have wires attached. how the fuck is that cute? even knowing this woman could not possibly be right in the head, they still shower her with attention, giving her interview after interview, blowing up that ego. of course she wants her 15 minutes of fame. she's probably been watching those shows with the duggans and jon + kate, where people drool over all the babies, is it no wonder in this fame obsessed culture we live in, that someone would think "birthin' babies" would be her ticket to fame? it's perfectly logical. not that it makes a lick of sense. yeah she needs help, but she's just a product of this sick cultural environment we've got... the worst part is the media obsession with oct/sext/whatever-tuplets.

people have talked about how she's had surgery to look like angelia joilie, i wonder if she's not in some dream world thinking she is her, and she's playing with all her (not adopted) kids waiting for brad to get home....

[roseviolet]

I think this whole story smells fishy & that's why it bothers me. She's been out of work on disability & living on food stamps for ages. So who paid for the IVF treatments? Also I've seen older photos of this woman - photos that appear to be taken in just the last couple years - and it looks like she's gotten a nose job & lip injections recently. Who paid for that? I don't care how many kids you have; if you can afford infertility treatments & plastic surgery, you shouldn't be on food stamps. It all seems very peculiar & suspicious.

[culturehandy]

I was just having this discussion with a good friend of mine last night. The impications of this are vast. While we both support a woman's right to choose, there are so many issues that stem out of one person having 14 children.

Like GGG said, this woman chose to have this many children, she should be able to support them, it is not up to the state nor the tax payer to cover the costs of her child raising. I can understand if she was financially well over before hand, or any family for that matter, then someone or both loose their job. Okay I can understand needing a little help from social agencies. but NOT having a plan. Come on. I think her plan the whole time was to hope for corporate sponsorship. She's already talking money with corperations and these octoplets have been alive what? two weeks??

And what's going to happen next week when most people stop giving a flying fuck. When there is something new and shiney to take over the media spotlight? What is she going to do when her 15 minutes of fame are up??

Raising one child on your own or with a partner is already very exhausting, but raising 14 on your own with no job while relying on Social assistance?? And this was your life before you got pregnant with 8??? What the fuck is that.

Would this not be super demented if this was all part of some sick reality show. Where some network had paid for all of this? In this day and age, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was a FOX reality idea. talk about a conspiracy theory.

This woman, in my opinion, was completely motivated by her own selfishness. She did not and is not thinking about the needs of her other 6 children. she was too budy thinking about being a mother. And why is it that if I DON'T want to have chidlren and want to get fixed before the age of 30 that I need to go and talk to a psychologist whereas people can have 14 and 22 children, and this is completely acceptable? Is this also not extreme? People who want more plastic surgery need to go talk to someone, but the family who already has 6n children and is having 8 more, no that's not indicative of anything that could be psychologically wrong. I don't care if you are in a commited relationship or a single, if you already have six children, I think there really needs to be exploration with the couple or the single about why they feel more IVF is really necessary.

Everyone thinks that it's so great and how cute it is that there are 8 tiny babies. What the media rarely, if ever, talks about are the huge health risks that these children will face. The Globe and Mail had something about this over the weekend.

[girlygirlgag]

can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.

I think this situation is totally isolated and goes beyond a woman's reproductive right. This woman had IVF seven times. IVF costs upwards of $16,000 a pop, that's $114,000. Don't even get me started on the cost of other plastic surgeries.


When you decide to have a children you have a financial duty to that child to be able to take care of them and to provide. Some mothers need help and assistance to get on their feet when they have a baby.... and I am willing to bet that those women never had $16K sitting around, let alone used it to pump themselves full of embryos.

This woman did not have any good reason to purposefully have this many children. She cannot take care of them. They were not accidents. She has a financial duty to care for them without assistance, since she purposefully created this situation. The tax payers of this country should not have to assist this woman with the rearing of her children. In fact, they should be calling that CPS do thorough investigations, and possibly place some of these older children in Foster Care.

There are going to be 17 people in a small, cluttered, laundry filled, raunchy house. When her mother acknowledges these issues, and claims to think it will be impossible to care for all of the children when they arrive home, it is quite evident that there is a problem.

I can't stand those Duggar people and I think it is very environmentally irresponsible to have such huge families, but if they can care for those kids without government assistance, then go for it. It's their life.

It think this woman wants to get a TV show like John and Kate Plus 8, or use this to garner some kind fo fame and fortune.

She's disgusting.

As far as "the need to mother" and how women are more than that, if you haven't been paying attention, this lady is cuckoo bananas and her needs are insane. She's a nut.

Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins.

She was implanted with 8 embryos, and one split, and then she lost one.

[pollystyrene]

My guess is that the doctor who did the IVF did it pro-bono for the publicity. Ridiculous.

[candycane_girl]

The octuplet mom really pisses me off. I don't know if anyone agrees with me but if she had to have IVF in the first place, I think that she should have been grateful just to be able to have one baby let alone 6. In the Dateline interview tonight she fully admitted that she has no job, receives food stamps and is basically supporting herself and her kids with money from student loans. This is absolutely ridiculous. IVF is already insanely expensive and yet somehow this jobless woman managed to get the money together for it? The whole thing is so fishy to me. And I don't honestly see how 6 kids are going to deal okay with suddenly having 8 newborns in a 3 bedroom house. That's 17 people total in a 3 bedroom house. That is not okay.

[stargazer]

He can't justify the risk of having a 'litter' with his Hypocratic oath of 'do no harm'.

thanks hoosierman for sharing your story. it sounds like you had a conscientious doctor, thinking of your wife and the child.

[hoosierman78]

since i'm not familiar with the process of IVF, maybe hoosierman could let us know, i'm wondering if any kind of counseling is provided for people seeking IVF treatment. most medical procedures from abortion, gastric bypass, and sex reassignment, require counseling pre- and post- treatment. i'm wondering if this element could've been included in IVF treatments. i think prophecy makes a great point about one's identity being determined by motherhood. i think i'm was surprised that the mother of the octopulets admitted to wanting kids to ease her lonely childhood. i'm sure she is not the first person to have kids for this reason. i guess i'm more surprised that she made this statement with so much scrutiny already.

All I can speak to is the process at the particular dr's office my wife & I were visiting, as we have only seen one fertility dr. From the books we've read, their process seems to be close to the norm. Had we gone through with it (pending adoption anywhere from now until first of Mar. kind of quashed IVF for now), we would have gone to a couple sessions where they explained to us the potential for a multiple birth, but the overall goal was a single baby. They would have also explained possible side effects of the fertility drugs. It was explained at our last appointment that given our situation (wife is as far as we know perfectly fertile. I, on the other hand, am not) the most he would implant would be two embryos, and there was a high probability of both taking. Given our relative youth, and the fact that there are no issues with my wife, he saw no reason to implant more than that - and made it clear he wouldn't even if we asked. He said that with each additional fetus, the health risks to both the mother & babies drastically increases. He also said that in his experience, he's never implanted more than 5 embryos at a time, even for women that have great difficulty becoming pregnant. He can't justify the risk of having a 'litter' with his Hypocratic oath of 'do no harm'.

As for counselling after the treatment, I can't say as we have not reached that step. We were not told of any post procedure counselling, only the follow up appointment to see if it worked.

[vixen_within]

I'll try and find the link to the interview, but I saw an interview with her (and it totally looks like she's had nose and lip work done) and every time she's had IVF treatments she was implanted with 6 eggs. She said her goal was to have 7 kids...

EFC: Found it.

Yeah I think it was seven total she was going for, not seven all at once. Her mom said they didn't know that all of the embryos would survive, they only expected one more kid, according to her.

When I saw the follow up of the mother coming out and giving explanations my first thought was, "Damn I wish she hadn't tried to explain and just let everyone go fuck themselves." It's irritating how eagerly people judge mothers *especially* if there's a whiff of poverty & out-of-wedlock about them. I'm just glad she's not a Black woman so we wouldn't have to wade through THAT internet bs (can you imagine?)

I guess large families go against the modern wisdom that children need to be saturated with individuated attention, but it isn't very long ago that large families were commonplace in America and guess what? The kids turned out FINE psychologically. I have no problems with a good mother having as many kids as she wants. My conflict comes from my own inner squirming at the thought of people like the Duggan family - and look at them, 2 parents, enough money, community support. But I find them so creepy and culty. Yet I had no problem with Ms. Octuplet's choices, go figure.

HOWEVER....
There's a cah-razy internet rumour about the identity of the father.

This is the blog that's on the case: http://thehollytree.blogspot.com/2009/01/w...-octuplets.html

Soloman, the name of the purported sperm donor, is really close to (and in fact just another version of) Suleman. And the records show that the first four kids have listed as donor "David Soloman". The English name "David" is "Doud" in Arabic. Father: Edward Doud Suleman.

What if...what if Nadya's IVF babies were really her father's? Ok, I'm totally wildly speculating here, for the hell of it! But check it out, her parents still live together but are legally divorced. What if the father takes care of her children because he feels guilty (for what?), and/or they really are HIS?

Ha ha...just fueling the soap opera for today. Just remember, if it ends up on Oprah, you heard it here first, lol.

[zoya]

ok, on a totally catty, completely superficial tip, did anyone see the TV interviews with the octuplets' mother? She has SOOO had work done on her face, and not good work. Trout pout all to hell...

sorry sorry sorry, feminist transgression... but I had to say it. Blame it on me living in LA for a few years...

[jsmith]

Re: Women who feel the need to define their identity and worth through motherhood:

I don't think anyone can blame someone for feeling this way. After all, the human animal is hardwired to pass on its genes, female and male alike. Some people just feel this urge much more acutely than others.

[stargazer]

since i'm not familiar with the process of IVF, maybe hoosierman could let us know, i'm wondering if any kind of counseling is provided for people seeking IVF treatment. most medical procedures from abortion, gastric bypass, and sex reassignment, require counseling pre- and post- treatment. i'm wondering if this element could've been included in IVF treatments. i think prophecy makes a great point about one's identity being determined by motherhood. i think i'm was surprised that the mother of the octopulets admitted to wanting kids to ease her lonely childhood. i'm sure she is not the first person to have kids for this reason. i guess i'm more surprised that she made this statement with so much scrutiny already.

[geekchickknits]

can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.

Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins. Creepy . . .

I'll try and find the link to the interview, but I saw an interview with her (and it totally looks like she's had nose and lip work done) and every time she's had IVF treatments she was implanted with 6 eggs. She said her goal was to have 7 kids.

I know for a fact in Canada, doctors giving IVF treatment are not allowed to implant more than four, and it really depends on a woman's age - in Canada the maximum zygotes she could have had would be two.

EFC: Found it.

[pollystyrene]

I think after 12 weeks is when it's considered late term abortion (a.k.a. partial birth abortion)...I think different states have different laws for that.

[roseviolet]

I didn't think someone could legally get an abortion at 23 weeks. Isn't 12 weeks the usual limit? I guess I don't know much about abortion laws.

[pollystyrene]

Here's the Jezebel article about that one, starship.

That's just horrific, like something you'd see on that Scare Tactics show as a prank. Now it's just fodder for the pro-lifers. Obviously, there was negligence at that clinic, but the pro-lifers are already turning it into a normal scenario at abortion clinics. Oh, and they're now calling them "abortion mills", not just clinics. Nice.

[starship]

Florida

[prophecy_grrl]

can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.

Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins. Creepy . . .

[pollystyrene]

I think some of these cases, be it the octuplet mom or the 60-year-old woman, are broaching the territory of science doing stuff just to show it can....are they finding willing participants (post-menopausal women, and/or women who want as many babies at once as science is willing to try) to help conceive just to prove they can do it? I'm sure it's not as blatant as that- they're not putting ads out into newspapers looking for people, but I think it is exploitive.....there's lots of things people want to do that doctors just shouldn't do- like those people who have obsessions with amputation and look for a doctor to saw off a perfectly good limb. They usually have to go to Paraguay or some place to find someone to do it.