[wombat]

Oh, ditto on the Camille Paglia hate. So many guys see her as refreshing. She likes sex! She likes rock and roll and transvestites!!

Big flappin' deal. So do a lot of feminists. I totally saw her as kissing up to the oppressor to get notoriety.

Then she talks about beauty and how we can't help but be fascist about preferring it, and she herself looks like Captain Kangaroo wearing long red fingernails.

[chachaheels]

I put Christina Hoff Summers in the same camp as Camille Paglia. There's been a huge backlash against feminism in the last 20 odd years or so, and a big market and promotional push behind women who want to be critical of feminism in order to get us all to "accept" that feminism is a limiting doctrine, and that we're as equal as we're gonna get and now we're just harming ourselves. I hate to say it, but that's where these ladies land for me. I can't even think of them as feminists because they've never written and published any feminist work. To me, they are this era's Phyllis Schlaffly. Definitely women, but never feminists; also quite happy to profit from the access feminism has actually given them, whether that access has been through academia or the media. I can't consider these people "allies", when they really aren't interested in being part of the diversity of feminism so much as they are interested in denouncing all of it as faulty, or even just being apologists for the persistent status quo which is still pretty misogynist. At least that's what I got from their writing (I've only been able to stomach one book from each). But that's just my opinion.

Yes, white women can't give up privilege which is granted to them by racism--but bottom line is all women, across the board, experience the systemic hatred of women. They just don't experience that hatred in equal forms. They do, however, experience it in comparable measure. The fact is, as all feminists of every political stripe have pointed out consciously or unconsciously, that a "hierarchy of the hated" exists.

Anywho, one thing we forget is that feminism has also been very thorough about describing and detailing exactly how misogyny hurts men, as well as women.

So I guess that means that I think that yes, certainly, men can be feminists as well. Let me correct myself here.
(Maybe it's just the "commitment" to the philosophy I'm having trouble with...but we all know you can question a lot of women's "commitment" to it as well, when you're faced with examples like the ones above)

Anyway, yes, we do need all the allies we can get--male, female, rich, poor, any race/culture, no matter. People who are striving to open their eyes to the injustices in the world are still striving to make things better for everyone if they are striving to be aware of the effects and realities of misogyny.

[greenbean]

I just feel like any allies we can get, we should take! I'd much perfer to be in the camp that includes a diverse range of feminists, rather than one that is very small and very alike. I agree with aviatrix that there are many women who identify as women but not as feminists, so really identity is not a prerequisite for me. Like I said before, I was told by some women that *I* can't identify with feminism because my preceived priveledge of being thin suggests that I'm part of the problem. I basically shrug that kinda statement off. I mean, I understand their point, but I don't think shutting me out helps anything. I mean really, please someone explain to me how telling others they can't be feminist really helps the cause?

Anyone read christina hoff sommers?
I haven't so I'm not sure if I agree with her, but I'm interested in the idea that their are "gender feminists" who seem to insist that womens gains are illusionary, eventhough we have come so far. (like aren't more women in college now than men?)

[aviatrix]

mmm, well the same can be said of white women. they can never give up their privilege, and while it may not be the same as sexism, they can acknowledge and work against it, and make others aware of it.

now if the question is will there still be elements within them that still hold sexist views, i would agree, in the same way that most whites still have racist views, even if the know and work to rid themselves of it. but i think a guy can

be a feminist and work against what he's been taught, just as a woman can work against being taught to be submissive. feminism, to me, is a point of view that you share; that their should be equality, and we should all work towards it, and eliminate sexism. i think anti-racism and and anti-sexism (feminism) have those same aims. i don't think one needs to be black or, latino etc, or identify as such to see and want to rid oneself of racism, the same with sexism. i don't think you need to identify as a woman. but maybe that's just me.

[chachaheels]

Well, identifying (and being identified) as a woman is a big part of it. A man can't "give up" the privilege of being male in our society willingly. The whole society really is constructed to present that privilege to him no matter what he does (there are then hierarchies of "manliness" that are falsely constructed, where privilege is not allotted equally to all men--that's where class, colour/race, and sexual preference/expression come in). Bottom line is that men are still favoured, and as aware as they can be, the way the world works still considers them the most valued. You can see it in our economics, you can see it in our language and what words are meant to convey, you can see it in all our unspoken yet known and assumed cultural conventions.

So, yes, men can and do support and understand and know on particular levels, but they'll never be in the same position politically or socially as women.

And lots of men talk a good line when it comes to women who are friends--but when the misogyny comes between them and their self-interest, as Wombat said so well, yeah, they will hold on to their privilege with all their might, more often than not. I agree lots of men will do housework, it's true; but in a relationship the overwhelming majority of the unpaid shitwork gets done by women, and men "help" (telling terminology right there). Gonna bring up another brilliant and oft referenced Feminist Economist again: Marilyn Waring, and her book If Women Counted. It's 10+ years old now, but nothing has changed since the time when she was writing. Also amazing: Hazel Henderson, whose webpage includes a lot of great articles illustrating just how the important and massive the unpaid work of women actually is: www.hazelhenderson.com

[faerietails]

Hm...I don't know. I also think men can be feminists. I know several who do identify as feminists, and I accept them as such.

I guess it's because I view feminism less as a struggle for women's identity (whatever that means), but more of a political, socioeconomic struggle for equality. That's where I see feminism/feminists being unlike the LGBT movement/being gay positive, even though I know certain aspects of both movements go hand in hand.

[aviatrix]

is it just identifying that keeps him from being a feminist, syb? after all, there are women who identify with being a woman who aren't feminists.... it seems to me that your dad understands it first hand and has done the 'homework' to be a feminist. even more he has internalized and been active and gone out and put his beliefs to the test. a lot of women haven't even done that.

[sybarite]

I've argued about whether a man can be feminist with my dad. He called himself a feminist years ago and we discussed the point. In the end I said that (as you say, dusty) he can be supportive and informed, he can be an activist, but cannot be defined a feminist because he cannot identify with being a woman.

He has marched for women's rights and at Take Back the Night events; he has worked elsewhere for women's rights and is informed by feminism in his everyday life and in his relationship. He has great politics and has taught me a lot, but he is not a feminist.

[greenbean]

Hmmm, well, I guess it all comes down to our age-old debate, "what is feminism". By my definition of feminism, anyone, men included, can be one. Cha, I totally know what you mean about those guys who claim to be feminist, and yeah, they're always those creepy hippy types. My guy friends never claim to feminist, but in my heart I feel they are, because they treat me as their equal and think I'm just as smart, funny, and strong as they are, and because they are supportive of women in art and music.

I'm always interested in what makes certain men sexist, whats behind it. I had a conversation a while back with my a female co-worker about 'cat-calls'. We worked in a restaurant that was in the 'Mexican' part of town and she was peeved by the men on the street that would make the 'pst pst' noises at her, she really let it ruin her day. I had a different stance. I knew these guys were immigrants, and treated like second class citizens whether they were legal or not. I know they must feel emasculated by the "Man" everyday, so they take that feeling of vulnerablity and turn it around on women. Making belittling noises to us makes them feel a little bit of power, like they are actually above someone else for a change. This used to piss me off, but since I figured I am gonna pass this group of men often, I might as well let them know I am not afraid of them, and I am their equal. At first, if I heard the 'pst' noise, I would ask, "where's the cat?" in Spanish, and they would laugh and say "its you!" and then I would hisss. The next time I saw them they didn't 'pst', but instead asked how I was, and I would say 'good'. Gradually, they stopped treating me like an object they could oggle, and started treating me like a neighbor. We would exchange small Spanglish pleasantries, and I felt perfectly safe and respected around them. I had similiar experiences with my black neighbors were I lived. At first if a black man would say "lookin good" while I was jogging in the neighborhood, I'd get scared and ignore it, thinking they were gonna victimize me or something. But, then I found that not being scared or pissed, and actually enjoying the interaction (hey, better than 'leave our hood white bitch'), I felt much more confident and integral in the neighborhood.

I'm not saying that THESE guys are feminist, I'm just saying that I felt allied with them despite their previous bad behavior, because I understand were it comes from . A sexist white man is a whole different story, and I have been known to wail on a few.

Back to the growing up thing, my own activities were not managed by my parents, and I even remember my dad and his brother having a debate regarding it. My uncle put his daughter in soccer leagues, and said I should be involved too, but my dad insisted that if kids wanna play soccer they should get together and do it on their own. Not sure who turned out better or more feminst, my cousin or I. I think *I* am more independent,..but she has a better job!

[wombat]

A lot of -- even most? -- men wouldn't specifically stand in womens' way, and agree with a lot of feminist tenets.

It gets tough when it's against a man's own self-interest.

In many relationships, the guy just kinda sorta is secretly kinda glad his woman just HAPPENS to do most of the shit work.

A woman needs to negotiate and be aware around power issues in every relationship. With men or otherwise.

With the economy going towards masters and slaves globally and against skilled jobs, against professions, and against alternatives, I see a lot of woman who offer up traditionally female domestic services in their relationships as a way of having a second "career" for back up. The problem is that that puts a burden on the relationship and one or the other person could end up losing out financially.

I don't think it's unfeminist for little girls to like pink and purple, or to enjoy dressing up as princeses and stuff, it's just unfeminist if she feels she HAS to do that and that she's not welcome in sports or what-have-you. Also, it stinks when little girls feel like they are not "cute" enough to do the whole princess thing, and if they don't do it, they are not going to fit in. Worse too is the whole "cute girlie" that gets unwanted sexual attention, like the Jon Benet Ramsey thing.

But there's nothing wrong with pink and purple in themselves. Nothing wrong with cooking and decorating and cleaning house. Just -- the feeling of obligation, or of a woman trying to make a big virtue out of it when in reality she feels stuck in it.'

I've certainly known men who cook and clean, my own man is one. Many male friends as well. They're not submissive, they are the opposite -- they grew up wanting to take care of themselves.

An independent, capable human being should be able to make their own food, keep themselves clean and healthy, and make enough money so that they can have choices in life.

But, now I'm getting preachy and saying stuff that is really, really, obvious, right? Preaching to the choir!!

[dusty]

No, a man can't be a feminist. Its like being gay-positive. You can be totally gay positive, but it doesn't make you gay, if you are straight. Either you are fighting the battle for your rights, or you are supporting it.

But. My definition of a woman is not genetic. If you identify as a woman, you can be a feminist.

And that's who is in *my* club.

[chachaheels]

Wombat, that kid culture you're describing is so, so true. And the freedom we had as kids to just travel around, meandering here and there in (and out, often) of our neighbourhoods--well, I have a neice and nephew who are growing up in the house I lived in when I was a child, and they are not allowed a minute of life unsupervised. I think of just how many endless hours we spent in the sun, riding our bikes around, finding secret and amazing places to go to with specific friends (and only those friends)...I feel so, so sorry for my neice and nephew. I don't know if this kind of regimented, super scrutinized life makes little girls less "feminist", but when I look at my neice (who's actually sleeping in the bedroom I grew up in, and going to the same high school I went to and hated) I see a kid who's a got a lot of savvy but not much in the way of "thinking for herself" yet. One thing I got from the freedoms in my childhood is the chance to see and learn from all kinds of other people, not just the kids and teachers I saw in my school. And she really doesn't have that. Back when I was her age, I knew I was going to a high school run by Catholic Fundamentalists--my neice hasn't a clue what that means, nor does she have an ability to question what she's being taught on her own terms. I don't say anything because I'm hoping she'll reach the point one day where things make her question what she believes.

When my neice was a little girl, she went through a pink/purple phase and I thought it was because of my sister in law. But then I noticed some extraordinary women I know--real high achievers in non-traditional fields, whose own daughters did the pink girly thing too, despite all that their moms knew about the sex role stereotyping. I'm learning that despising that "feminine" and "pretty" aspect of being female is really just another way of devaluing all things female. Just because little girls derive pleasure out of being feminine and pretty "like mommy" or not, this is an aspiration and a celebration about a part of being human that is really only a part of women's culture, so I feel it's actually awful to "hate" that. Though I can certainly hate the fact that that phase of little girl consciousness is now just another excuse to sell stuff to them, I can't blame that particular corruption on femininity! It's capitalism, after all--and lord knows that wasn't invented by any woman.

Anyway, I'm not sure that there are any more "predators" out there today than there were when I was a child--they were always just as numerous and just as dangerous, but kids weren't taken seriously about those kinds of fears back then and the media certainly didn't sensationalize the events to the extent that they do now. You're right, Wombat, when you say we all knew about them, too--knew which houses to avoid, which older brothers or sisters to avoid, houses to stay away from...but I think we all had a sense of being able to protect ourselves, if we had to. Now there just seems to be an overwhelmingly pervasive air of fear put on these kids, because they're really being cloistered and restrained in order to be kept "safe". I know for a fact most parents want their kids at home, in front of a computer game module and a big fat screen TV, and not out playing in the yard with a group of friends. Which only expands their influences from the few they get already to include marketers.

Can a man be a feminist? It's a big stretch for a lot of men to be empathetic, to understand empathy as a concept intellectually, and to understand how and why they've been dissuaded from learning how to be empathetic. There was a while there (I know it's still going on, in certain circles--particularly in communities where people work for ecological goals, but it's not just exclusive to those groups) where men would "use that stance" to get women to go out with them, have sex with them. I've met many men who still proclaim themselves feminist to women, but they haven't been believable. It really takes a great deal of introspection and self-awareness to see the power differential between the way the world is set up for men and women, and to understand how their privilege (and everything that exists on our society that is built on their unquestioned exercise of that privilege) allows that inequality to perpetuate itself. Unless someone is forced into a situation of literally being put into a woman's shoes for a mile or two, it's not likely many men could ever even imagine (and then correctly perceive) the differences and inequalities, which would be the beginning of "getting" the idea of feminism. On a personal level, I think not all men hate women as they're taught to do, in society's subtle and not so subtle institutions we're all forced to contend with. Some really do learn and question so much of the misogyny around us and they do practice a kind of thinking which strives to keep them from perpetuating any kind of injustice possible, but I honestly can count the number of men who have done this that I've met in my life on one hand. A great deal more men do try and understand it now than they did in the past. Again, I think we have to credit that diversity to the influence of feminism in general.

Which brings me to the other issue: the genetically female prerequisites. I think we are all aware of genetically female women who are not feminists! So genes really don't have much to do with the ability to grasp the concepts and perceptions. Personally, I think if we're looking to find the genetically male who "get" feminism, we'll most likely find them in the transgendered males who've opted to become females, and had a taste of the way the world deals with women "up close and personal". KInd of like the way a white person would have to "become" black to understand how everything in our society holds the racial discrimination in place; the way a very wealthy person would have to be made to live as a very poor person who doesn't have and will never have the same access to resources, connections, and opportunities (but has the same drive, intelligence, discipline, creativity, etc).

[go_kayte]

finally one of them came down and did the rest of the work for me. I could tell (without them saying) that they were scared to offend me either way--by helping or by not helping!

I'm "one of the guys" too, only nobody would dare help me with that bike cause I'd say "get the fuck off my bike, asshole." Hahaha! I'm a dick though.

[greenbean]

tes, I totally think a man can be feminist! My dad is a great example,..he works in community housing and many of his co-workers and superiors are women, particulary black women, and as a kid he would introduce them to me with the utmost, prfessional respect. He often gushes over Maxine Waters and Barbara Lee (black female politicians here in California) for their crusades...plus, his celebrity crush is Diane Keaton.

In high school and in adulthood I would consider all my guy friends as feminist, even if they would wince at the question. I remember when I first experienced blantant gender bullying was during a high school swim practice. I went to a girls school that didnt have a pool so our team practiced with the boys school cuz they had a pool. Some of the aqua jocks were all cocky about it being "their" pool, and there was this one guy, the ultimate stupid, sexist jock, that said to a group of us girls, "we only let you swim here so we can look at your tits" (other guys chuckle) "except you (points to me) what are you doing here?" (more chuckling) I assume because I am flat-chested. Anyways, sad to say I didnt have a comeback, and the other girls ignored it. I found refuge with my best guys friends, who hated that one guy too. We started a zine and named it Joffee, the last name of that prick. We filled it with things we hated about him and other idiot guys, and passed it out at parties. It was a hit!

I've always had more guy friends then girls, actually. Probably because I liked going to rockn'roll shows deemed "too aggressive" by girl friends, and the whole bike gang thing. My guy friends have always treated me like one of them. Sometimes tho, its cute when they get confused. Like recently, 5 guys and I rode up to some hills, and then pushed our bikes up some dirt trails. I started to lag behind during the pushing, cuz my arms are weak. All the guys made it to the top and I was still struggling,..finally one of them came down and did the rest of the work for me. I could tell (without them saying) that they were scared to offend me either way--by helping or by not helping!

[wombat]

Speaking of sex, girls, and childhood, I remembered just now that I would know a girl was REALLY MY FRIEND if we could talk about sexual stuff.

For kids, you know, talking about sexual stuff is like: what do you call this, what do you call that, or talking about "pee" or "poop" or saying "dirty words"

When the catholic school girl next door was willinig to talk about a dog peeing -- well, that's when I knew she wasn't too prissy.

We would do this far, far away from adults.

!!!!

The other cool thing is how many cool hiding places kids can have -- we had one behind the bushes in the corner where two stone walls came together. No adult would think a kid could fit there, so we could have a place of our own and not leave the yard!!

The other thing is that even when we were small we were allowed to walk in the woods, down the railroad tracks, to the store etcetera, either alone or with just two or three of us. And now, with all the child predators, I don't think kids are allowed to do that any more. We had a whole kid culture that adults knew nothing about. And probably would have shocked them. We would get naked, tie each other up -- not simultaneously!! Pull strange pranks on each other, get in fights and stuff.

We always knew who the predators were, too. It's not that they didn't exist, it's that the kids would tell the other kids to stay away from certain houses and stuff.

I think kids lose something with the hyper-managed life they have now. Or else from the fact that too many of them are kind of in lock-down with TV and junkfood cause it is too dangerous outside.

I'm wondering if girls do worse in the hyper-managed life, like if they go to so many organized activities, they get pressured to conform and consume, more than we did.

[maddy29]

hey all-very interesting conv. about toys and gender-sad that it's still sooo split-happy meals at micky ds, etc. my niece and nephew are very into being spies, so at least that's gender neutral...thank god-she used to be sooo into barbies and pink things, and i just felt bad getting her that stuff, even though it was what she wanted.

i don't get the whole "Feminists hate sex" thing. i think it's just easy for people to shut down our ideas by saying "oh well you just hate men, or sex, or kids, or whatever" than actually listen to what we're saying?

i find twisty's blog refreshing, and interesting to r ead-i'm new to it. but mostly i'm loving it because it's giving me a better sense of the spectrum of feminism, or whatever you wanna call it. i agree with her in a lot of ways, very strongly, and then the next sentence she writes i'm like "what??!!"... she is definitely very radical, which i really appreciate.

i think a man can be a feminist, definitely. although i think a man's experience as a feminist would probably be pretty different......just my 2 cents.

[tesao]

so, without divulging my own opinion, what do all of you think:

can a man be a feminist or not?

separate, but also interesting question:

does a feminist have to be genetically female?

[nickclick]

...but instead of being thankful for coming into her own as a woman

tee hee!

yeah, where did that misconception conceive, about feminists hating sex?

(of course the misconception is only about feminist women hating sex with men...)

[wombat]

*Giggle*

*Giggle*

[erinjane]

Just a side note, but I lost all respect for twisty when that whole transgendered bashing mess went down on her blog.