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> What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
girltrouble
post Dec 20 2006, 03:36 PM
Post #1081


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sorry. quick trans language translation:
    tgirl, t-girl, gurl mtf or m2f = female transexual. specifically male to female.
    genny= genetic girl.
    tranny, or tg= umbrella terms for transgendered people of whatever gender.
    ts=specifically transexual either m2f or f2m but not meaning cross dressers, drag queens etc.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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maddy29
post Dec 20 2006, 03:16 PM
Post #1082


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dusty-that's how i feel too. if it's a real choice, and the woman feels good about it, and is relatively safe, then ok. but again, in a culture where girls are taught from a young age to be cute, pretty, sexy, etc, is it ever really a choice?

i think tgirl means transgendered?

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dusty
post Dec 20 2006, 03:14 PM
Post #1083


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Sorry, girltrouble, could you clarify tgirl for me? Thanks.

Hmmm. I don't think I have a problem from a feminist perspective with women selling sex, if they are safe, if they are in control of the situation, if it is a choice.

I have more of a problem with what I perceive as young women being pushed by our culture to act and dress in an overtly sexual manner. It makes me wonder what happened to feminism, but I feel like an old lady when I say it, and probably everyone is going to roll their eyes and think I'm an old skool feminist.
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girltrouble
post Dec 20 2006, 02:03 PM
Post #1084


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QUOTE
so, it doesn't bother you that they are looking down on you? you don't mind having sex with someone who is looking down on you? i guess i just don't get that.


no. it doesn't bother me. i think of it as a commodity/closet/ignorance/shame tax. but strangely enough, i understand why they do it, and perhaps it is not as simple as them looking down on me. society views guys who are attracted to tgirls as homosexual, and so they hide that desire. if they really knew how common it is,they'd see it really isn't that rare (stigma again). if you give it a tiny bit of thought (most people don't), you'd see where sexuality and gender definitions break down when dealing with TG's. so hetero, homo, it doesn't apply. i could go into the construction of sexual binaries and their irrelivance when viewed in a post modern, feminist queer filter blah, blah, blah, (sorry, i've been getting back into post modern gender theory again lol...) but the long and the short of it is: guys who are attracted to ts are closer to being heterosexual, occasionally bi, and almost never gay than anything else. bluntly: gay boys like boys to look like boys.

if they look down on me it's because of their own ignorance/shame. but guys don't care to deal with their desires so. they get taxed. i used to think that i would try dating guys, but for me atleast it became pretty obvious, they only wanted to satisfy their curiosity. i do know a guy or two who dates only t girls, but they are rare. this way, i at least get paid for it, and there is no pretense of a second date, or a phone call. besides, i prefer dating women. i know how guys are. half of it is what you think of the girl you date. the other half is what your friends think. as fucked up as it is, to some degree women are status symbols in this culture. dating a t girl or several is frowned upon. what would my boys think? oh, he's just a closet case... etc. most guys haven't the cahones for that kind of thing. and believe it or not, the male identity is a very fragile thing as far as this society is concerned. a man's manhood can be impuned quite easily. for all but the most secure men, dating a t girl calls all of that into question.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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erinjane
post Dec 20 2006, 01:04 PM
Post #1085


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girltrouble, i literally just finished reading a great article that sums up issues from both sides, but in particular parts stuck out that sounded like what you were talking about. It was really interesting. I tried googling it but you have to pay. If anyone wants me to email it to them I can.

"The Rights and Wrongs of Prostitution" by Julia O'Connell Davidson.


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I Could Tell You Stories That Would Make Your Ears Curl
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maddy29
post Dec 20 2006, 12:47 PM
Post #1086


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here's another perspective-maybe the woman feels "fine" about it- but would she feel so fine about it if she knew what the guy was thinking about her? i don't think so.....i've been reading one of erin's blogs she posted, and it brought up that point-about what men REALLY think of sex workers.

girltrouble, thanks for "coming out" as it were smile.gif i think this brings a lot to the conversation. just fyi, there is a sex workers thread in the work forum that would be a supportive place for you, if you want to talk about being an escort. not telling you to leave! just an fyi. that thread is specifically for peop[le who do some sort of sex work, and it's not a debate thread..

so, it doesn't bother you that they are looking down on you? you don't mind having sex with someone who is looking down on you? i guess i just don't get that.

also, i think girltrouble did make it clear that she wasn't saying all escort agencies are super duper great. and her experience counts, we can't just say no that doesn't fit. just like she can't say all sex workers are super happy and empowered...
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girltrouble
post Dec 20 2006, 12:15 PM
Post #1087


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i'm sorry if it came across like i think it's never bad, and if i'm not mistaken i put some sort of caviat in each post i wrote, but i HAVE to speak from MY experience. ive had friends who have been at knife and gun point. but that was because they were stree walking. that's not my experience. yes, there are bad things that happen, yes there is slavery, yes, women get raped, yes, yes, yes. but that to me isn't the whole story. every agency isn't bad. there ARE a lot of choices that women who do this work can make, and it doesn't have to be a highway to hell. i think that when you look at it in this constantly, all bad view, that condesension sticks, you can always think, well i don't know anyone who would do that.... when chances are you probably do. as long as it's all mob ties and slavery, rape etc, then we are distanced from it. i think maddy put her finger on it. it's not all bad. it's not this binary of it's all good or bad. and the experiences and reasons why women prostitute aren't monolithic either. i wouldn't say that sex work isn't the easy way out, and i think it quite odd that on one hand people call it that, but at the same time elevate it to this work that is capable of rending your soul from your body. which one is it? or is it some where in between for most of the people who do it? i think it's in the middle and that is what i've been trying to get at in my own clumsy way.

sigh. here comes a whole nother wrench in this conversation....

perhaps the reason i have view this work as not-that-different, is because i have worked as an escort, i AM working as an escort. i was hesitant to post in this conversation because i didn't want to out myself. for me the stigma is the worst part about it. for the last year, it's what's paid my bills. i've looked off and on for work. my main issue is dealing with the stigma. really. i don't mind the work. sometimes it's gross, yes, i don't particullarly like the smell of boy on, me so i take more showers when i work. but maybe it's just me, but it's just a job, with upsides and downsides like any other. but that is my pov. i haven't lost my soul, i don't feel particullarly guilty, although i've known girls who were haunted by it. but even so i think the stigma was a large part of that. and this madonna/whore complex thing this cuture has.

do i lose sleep because i had sex with someone for cash? no. in all honesty, i don't. do i wonder what the fuck i am doing with my life? yeah, but i do that anyways. when i have a straight job and when i don't. i like a lot of my clients, and if i get attitude from them on the inital phone call i hang up on them. i have a very frendly relationship with most of them, i know what they do for a living, their family life, where they vacation, and i've learned a lot from them. one guy would show me martial arts moves incase anyone started trouble. sometimes i enjoy myself, sometimes i can't wait for them to leave. but if i don't like them, i don't see them. but if there isn't something i don't like to do, i work around it. it is a choice. never walked the street, and i hope i never will. but i know girls who have.

have i lost a piece of my soul? no. i still know who i am. i still have a sense of what i will and won't do. and i keep it balanced. as i said, there are a lot of choices to be made, so it's up to me to make the best ones for me. there are girls who make a lot more than i do, but i am picky about who i see. i set paramiters. i know that if i do this, i have more time to paint and the flexablity to dj when i can find gigs. the trade off for me works. i can work for fewer hours and make the rent. the trade off is work is inconsistant, and i stress about money constantly. but that is my choice. i keep myself safe. i worked for other agencys. they weren't as good as the one i started with (yes doing phones), mainly because they weren't all that interested in my safety, and i wanted to make all the money, since i did 90% of the work, i should get atleast 90% of the pay. even with the split i negotiated, the work they did was minimal. so i went i went independant, and still am. so now my pov is discounted because i am transgendered. there is always something you can pick at to think, well, that's not typical. it's always bad. someone always 'knows' dispite having only read something in the paper or watched law and order. but i would contend that the rate of girls getting murdered is higher for t-girls. and because of the stigma there is more of a chance of someone getting away with murder if it is a girl like me. but hell, girls like me get murdered, even when they don't charge. so no matter what, it's dangerous.

in a lot of ways to me, this is commodity, pure and simple. and perhaps it's because i'm trans, that i look at it this way. i know that guys get this thing where they are curious about t-girls, so they want to try it. i could sleep with them for free, but when i've done that, it's been a raw deal for me. they have their own shame issues, and dating me threatens their masculinity, so i figure, they are paying a transphobic charge, for not being honest about what they desire. they look down on me, so they get taxed. to me, a t-girl who doesn't date a few times before she has sex with a guy is a sucker. from my experience, most guys see t-girls as strictly booty call material. not that i think it's different for gennys (genetic girls). i would bet that most guys that t-girls see only see them once, and they never see them again.

i do miss the consistancy of a regular pay check, and for the last year ive looked for a regular job off and on, but i quit my last job because my boss was a serious fuckstain, and i think staying there would have done more fuck with that part of my soul that wombat talked about, than escorting. and i don't think it's always the easy way out. even in my progressive city there is still a lot of transphobia. ive gone for jobs i am without a doubt over qualified for, but didn't get it, for what i can only guess is trans-phobia. but i've been homeless before, and there is very little i won't do not to go down that road. being homeless is my worst nightmare, litterally and i mean that over anything you could imagine. so escorting is what i do.

my problem, again, is stigma. most of my friends know, but some don't. so i don't tell them. coming out about anything is something i am very tentative about. when i came out and transitioned i lost all but two of my friends, and my family, so coming out about this is something i don't like to do. lol...even on forums. every coming out changes the way people treat you. and i've had way too much experience with people who thought they were open minded shutting their minds, and talking behind my back.i try to be a very open person. i spent years in the closet before i transitioned, which was my own private hell. not to be open about things is hard. i have no problem talking about "back when i was a boy" with people i barely know, but escorting... i have to know you very well, and one of my friends of about 8 years probably knows, but i'm not gonna tell her. i'm afraid of what would happen. i've lost more friends coming out for things, than i can count.

do i think escorting makes me less of a feminist? hell no. i believe in a third wave feminism, that is pluralistic, inclusive, and is about a full range of options for women no matter what they do, no matter where they came from, and no matter what they believe. as i said in my earlier post, i've seen too many movements cut off their members who need their help and strength most to simply to curry favor of a larger society that doesn't give a fuck about the lot of them. to me feminism HAS to be an all of us or a none of us proposition. otherwise, you aren't in control of your movement, the larger society is. and you keep re-drawing that line in the sand. today it's trannys, or prostitutes, tomorrow it's women of color, and the thing about 3rd wave is, that is the lesson of all those other feminist waves. if it isn't all or nothing. it's nothing. but then, that point of view is self-serving, but i defend it fiercely no matter who you are.


thanks for listening to me think out loud...edited 20,000 times for brevity and clarity..lol


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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pepper
post Dec 20 2006, 11:38 AM
Post #1088







QUOTE
partly, i get mad at women who do this. i feel like it hurts all of us. i feel like it's totaly taking the easy way out. i mean, anyone can lay there and let someone fuck them or whatever. and then get a bunch of cash. i feel like they are just taking the easy way in a sexist society, instead of fighting to be more than just a sex object. i feel like they are giving in to patriarchy, and it hurts me and all women.



hear hear, this is something that i also grapple with. more so with the porn and music industries (aren't they really the same thing, one with a better sound track?) and stripping. i do feel that contributing to the view of women as sex objects adds to the general objectification and undervaluing, devaluing of women and yes, that does directly affect me. in fact, i feel the same way about the Fashion industry. there is a reason that plastic surgery is on the rise instead of meditation retreats. it's sickening.
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erinjane
post Dec 20 2006, 11:24 AM
Post #1089


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Awesome points, maddy.

Girltrouble, part of the problem I see with your analysis is that you're only looking at one small aspect of sex work, which I see as the exception. As others have said it often is slavery, and you only witnessed one aspect and weren't personally a sex worker.

I also agree that it's not black and white and good or bad. There are so many varying experiences across the board but the way you talk about sex work makes it sound like you're trying to say it's just not that bad ever, when in reality it's extremely dangerous and forced for some, but not all. I read a lot of sex workers blogs and have picked up many books, and written many papers and the one consistant thing I take away from it all is that there is not one experience and it's not necessarily good or bad. You can't really put something like sex work into a box and label it.


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dusty
post Dec 20 2006, 09:32 AM
Post #1090


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don't get me wrong, i don't think it's a rose garden, but it's not slavery either

Too frequently it *is* slavery, even if it wasn't in your agency.

I respect women's rights to make their choices, but I think that prostitution is very often not a choice.
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maddy29
post Dec 20 2006, 08:50 AM
Post #1091


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a couple of quick thoughts.

girltrouble-i totally appreciate your comments. i think it's soo helpful to hear someone speak from actual experience, to me it makes a big difference. now i can say, ok, there are some good agencies out there.

but, you still only were in one agency, and you weren't a sex worker. so what you saw, and what was actually happening may be different. or maybe it was exactly like you say-but it was still just one agency. other people have different experiences, and those shouldn't be discounted either.

i feel like we're trying to make this too simple-like either prostitution is bad, or it's good. that's just too all or nothing. that's like saying sex is good or all bad. it's different for everyone! some sex workers are probably totally destroyed by their experiences, some work their whole lives and are happy healthy people. and then there's all the people in the middle of that spectrum.

lastly, thinking about the difference between sex work and other work. i think everyone has made great points. it's true that stigma and shame causes sex work to be looked down on etc. but, i really think there is something different about having sex with someone. maybe htat's just me, and other women don't feel that way. but i do feel that having sex is just so intimate, so personal-in a way that other "difficult" jobs just aren't!

i'm trying to be really honest here, so that i can grapple with my true feelings about this stuff, instead of trying to be a "good feminist" so please bear with me if i say offensive stuff. i'm tryign to work this out in my head.

i DO look down on sex workers. strippers, hookers, madams. just like i was brought up to look down on blue collar workers. because "I" was supposed to have this big career, and go to college, and be a good girl, etc. so my upbringing told me that only a professional job is ok. anything less than that is failure, or embarrassing, or a really bad choice, not living up to my potential. not that my parents said that directly, but in my social circle, school, etc-that was the norm. now, i'm not saying that's a good thing-just that it's really hard to change these beliefs.


partly, i get mad at women who do this. i feel like it hurts all of us. i feel like it's totaly taking the easy way out. i mean, anyone can lay there and let someone fuck them or whatever. and then get a bunch of cash. i feel like they are just taking the easy way in a sexist society, instead of fighting to be more than just a sex object. i feel like they are giving in to patriarchy, and it hurts me and all women.

ok i guess i should do some work...heh heh, this is way more interesting than work!
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dusty
post Dec 20 2006, 08:23 AM
Post #1092


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I agree, Erinjane, who knows how dangerous prostitution is, when murders are basically ignored by police?

And it is shocking how that highway murders continue to be underreported (and underinvestigated?) even while there is a huge media explosion over the Pickton story.
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wombat
post Dec 20 2006, 06:54 AM
Post #1093


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Whoops, it was actually the January issue of Glamour in which there is the article about the woman who had worked as a stripper helping other women leave.

I don't find it in any way condescending or anti-feminist to say that sex work is different than all other kinds of paid labor and has a lot of problems associated with it. I do respect the women, and respect you, girltrouble, and appreciate your posting about distinctons that can be made.

But, come on. Feel like going up to the electrician on the construction site, male or female, and tell them they may as well just suck dick instead? Do their preference, choices, education, training, skills, and joy in a job well done mean nothing?

What is this assumption that we are all middle-class, pampered academics so we look down upon physical labor of all kinds? I once carried 30 pound paint buckets up and down ladders, piled up furniture to throw drop cloths over it, waved my arms in the air to edge trim and then roller walls, and made more money than I've ever made in my life. Still, it's half of what I would have made as a stripper and a quarter of what I would have made as a prostitute. And I suppose I could have fallen off a ladder or pulled a muscle, if I did something stupid. There's an outside chance someone on the crew could have raped me.

But, the same as being a sex worker? Of course not. I made less money and got to call the most sensitive and intimate and beloved parts of my body and soul my own.



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girltrouble
post Dec 20 2006, 02:41 AM
Post #1094


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now, what you are saying about dating outside the agency, it is frowned upon, but we were talking about friendship, and as i said there was varriance. and you point out a girl was dating x clients, so it's not uncommon. i think you would agree seeing clients by going outside of the agency is also something that would get a girl fired as well, and as a person who handled the phones, it was very easy to figure out when it was happening. clients tend to be very consistant over time. and, not to be dismissive, but it sounds like your friend who distrusts men had her being-hit-on problem way before being a working girl, and personally i don't trust men either, and i used to be one.

don't get me wrong, i don't think it's a rose garden, but it's not slavery either. i know i was lucky to work at that agency, because we did a lot of things to look out for our girls, but we weren't some upscale place, we were right in the middle, and if we could compete and still do right by the girls, then there were other agencys that did the same. girls could always choose where they wanted to work. you could go to agencies where they gave you a better split, or were more safe. many of the things we did were simply sound business and happened to do right by the girls too. i really hate sounding like a republican, but there is some level of personal responsiblity here. if you are taking the $200 tip to bareback, then that is your choice. my personal feeling, and i would say this all the time, is, how far is that $200 gonna take you when you have to take your aids cocktail? not very far. the same holds true for the agency you choose, or the boobs you buy or the x-clients you date. there wasn't any pimp threatening those girls when they made those choices. f'reals. worse come to worse you could always go independant, and look after yourself. it's a choice.

that said, my whole point, years ago before slipping to the quicksand of minutiae, was, that absent guilt and societal stigma, there is little difference between that and other jobs where people use their bodies for income.

disease? yeah, medical professionals, EMTs and doctors are certainly exposed.
bodily harm? it would seem construction or working on an oil rig, fire fighters, cops or being a coal minor all have high risks of death too.
emotional distress? crisis councilors, cops and social workers all have high burn out rates because of stress.

the one thing that is singular to prostitution:stigma and the accompanying guilt.

i haven't heard anything that has changed my mind in this, but anyone who knows me knows, i love looking for flaws in my own logic. and pepper, wombat, maddie, and everybody else who debated this with me, thank you. i love having to defend my points. y'all rock.

this discussion began because busties were hearing the ways that the media was talking about these girls, and found it unsettling. i found some of the ways that some people were talking about the girl's work equally unsettling. which, again, is not to say that it's all giggles, but some of the comments were condesending, and my larger point was that we are not free of this same sort of thing we saw in the media accounts. and if we do believe in feminism, that needs to be examined. i say we, because i am no less guilty than anyone else, but all the same that need to separate ourselves, by in some way saying to ourselves, we would never, could never, and are some how better, should be interogated. for me, it is an anathema to what feminism means to me. that's all.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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pepper
post Dec 19 2006, 10:16 PM
Post #1095







GT, the place you describe sounds like nothing that's ever been described to me. i'm sure there are places like that and i'm sure your experience was real and as you say but the majority of agencies and clubs that girls i've known worked for (high-end, mid stream and bottom of the barrel) were completely different. sadly, what wombat described is not just the stuff of TV fantasy.
i don't know how much genuine complaining a girl would do to a co-worker who was buddies with the boss either. and i don't know how many girls would make waves about a $200 tip for doing something that was against the safety "rules" either, most of them would just take the money and hope for the best. i did, however, know of more than one girl who got 'friendly' with a client outside of work. it was never really outside of work though and never a genuine friendship. and it certainly isn't something that any agency encourages, not even your boss/friend. most agencies fire for stuff like that.
it's not that i'm against that kind of work in the way i think you mean, it's that i see all the garbage that goes along with it and it's more often than not tragic. i supported a really good girlfriend through years of counselling, court dates with abusive boyfriends (x-clients aka the new pimp), AA and NA after her bout of "working". she's got great big fake boobies as a constant reminder for the rest of her life as well. then there's another girlfriend who paid her way through uni peeling, she hasn't had a meaningful relationship with a man in over a dozen years because she was propositioned by everyone from men of the cloth to grade school teachers to men who's wives were in the hospital after delivering their baby and she just doesn't trust any man any more.
we can agree to disagree. i recognize the validity of your experience but it's very, very different than what i myself have observed.
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girltrouble
post Dec 19 2006, 09:15 PM
Post #1096


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it seems, no matter what my experience is, there is some cliche hole to be found. acting isn't much different than what you describe, wombat.

but your assumtions are pretty much wrong, wrong, wrong.
    >most of the girls would work part time, so they did have something on their resume, but tax free extra money as well.
    >gaining weight wasn't always a negative, there was always work for bigger girls
    >same for mature girls
    >fetish and kink are actually good things, because you don't have to have sex and you can charge more, and body size is really not an issue with the kinky, they want the right attitude more than anything.
    >many girls were going to school and were very aware they didn't want to do that kind of work forever. it was a good, fast income, and they knew it. >as for guys wanting variety, at the agency, that really wasn't an issue. at least not in the way you imply. they guys were suprizingly loyal. if anything they would request a menage with another girl, but they seldom did a lot of switching. they wanted someone who knew what they wanted.
    >variety was actually a good thing in that it didn't mean guys seeing everybody at the agency (although there was always one or two), but because there was work for types of girls who you wouldn't expect.
the sort of "protection" and "house arrangements" are more common with strippers. because their places of employment actually charge their girls to be on the house stage, they can easily end up in debt to the house. at the agency, the house's money comes off the top. the girls NEVER owed the agency money, it's bad form. any madam who had girls who owed her money was asking to get burned. protection for the girls was simply good business. a girl burned the agency gets burned. no mob/organized crime, that's television fiction.

and the "Yeah, help me, be my friend..." business was more like, hey, you've got great taste, can you pick me up a new dress you think would look hot for a date" variety. real sad. sometimes clients would have connections that they girls didn't. guys wouldn't mind helping them with different things, because they liked each other.

you think you know, but you don't know.

really, it's feeling like i am beating my head against a brick wall.
feh, i guess i'm in the minority for not being completely down on this kind of work, and that one can do it for a time and get out. and it can be a good thing. it's not for everyone, to be sure, but it's not what you see on TV.

anna k, one of my best friends is a burlesque dancer (she's older and is kind of a burlesque mama), and she organized shows with traveling dancers coming into town. the best was this girl whose shtick was looking utterly and completely bored. her entire act she chewed gum like a cow, but you could tell it was her shtick, and it was a riot. she brought the house down....she was so good, that my friend added gum chewing to her act, and she's been dancing forever (really, she's in her early 50's and she's awesome!)


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"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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anna k
post Dec 19 2006, 09:14 PM
Post #1097


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 1,687
From: NYC


I saw the Marie Claire article. She looked like Bijou Phillips in her stripper days.

On HBO's Real Sex, they've shown strip clubs that operated more like theater for girls who liked to dance naked and put on performances in a more punk-rock, artsy way. There the girls looked really happy dancing and expressing themselves, putting on a new show all of the time and being a burlesque-style entertainer. That's the exception, though.

Friday I went to a club that does comedy shows, rock shows, and burlesque shows, and saw the burlesque one. I liked the performance of the girls when they put a lot into their show and did a slow reveal, but others just danced in between shows, looking bored and receiving polite applause after each song ended. Some would talk to people while onstage, and it was boring to just watch a half-naked girl dance like she's waiting for a bus.
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crazyoldcatlady
post Dec 19 2006, 08:05 PM
Post #1098


the moistiest
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Posts: 1,700
From: here. in my head.


MWUAHAHHAHA, rosev. loves it!
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roseviolet
post Dec 19 2006, 07:31 PM
Post #1099


Pacifism kicks ass!
***
Posts: 3,064


Going off topic for a moment. File this under "Well, DUH!!!".

Reality Check: 95% of Americans had Premarital Sex

Yup, that abstinence-only sex ed is really working. rolleyes.gif
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wombat
post Dec 19 2006, 06:59 PM
Post #1100


Dragon Velocity
***
Posts: 1,044
From: Rattland


annnnddddd ... as "the girls" get older, they go further and further down the rungs, and I would bet that they can't stay with the same high-class madam for too long as the guys want "variety" and, they'd better not get fat, and they'd better LOOK a certain way, and they have nothing to put on their resume, unless they're hooking on the side with some other job, and when they get older it's time to get into kink.

"Protection, the house arrangements, etc" -- they become known to/indebted to organized crime figures. Organized religion and organized crime reinforce each others' profits.

Yeah, help me, be my friend... thinking of that vulnerability makes me sad.

Did y'all see the article in the latest Marie Claire about a former stripper trying to help other girls leave when they want to leave?


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Lion-hearted
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