[doodlebug]

It's great to read all of your thoughts. I agree with so many things said.

I do also think it's important to remember that many people who seem happy or satisfied are NOT necessarily that way. And I can say that because I meet a lot of those women in my job, who are sometimes very unhappy with their cheating and/or abusive husbands, or just generally very oppressed by the expectations that are put on them as wives and mothers. And a lot of the time, there aren't as many ways "out" of the situation as we might think. People really DO stay together for the sake of the children, and mothers especially will often tolerate hell itself, if it means their children's well-being. Even when women aren't faced with direct abuse, they will often sacrifice their own happiness to stay in unhappy marriages, because they know they can't support their kids at the same level on their own, OR they know that their male partners will fight them for custody/access, even when that custody/access may be a worse situation for those kids...sometimes it may seem better to stay put, where women feel they can protect their kids better, or at least ensure their kids will be able to afford university, which many single mothers can't ensure.

And I think those women in particular are the women who retreat into what we see as a more "shallow" world of seeming to have nothing to talk about but their families. They do it often because they are dependent on proving to themselves that where they are is the "right" place for them to be, and that they have made the "right" decision in putting all their energies behind their kids.

My mother stayed home with my brother and I for 11 years. She went back to work when I (the youngest) entered kindergarten. My father was physically, psychologically, and emotionally abusive towards my mother, but it was not until she built up her confidence through her work and earning ability that she finally found the courage to leave him (and in the end, she only wound up with custody of me, while my father went on to apply his mental abuse to my brother)....and, it must be said, that it was also her working (independence, having a harder time keeping up on the housework/childrearing - which my father did NONE of) that increased his abusiveness (loss of control). But people outside the family had NO idea what was going on, and thought that BOTH of my parents were the nicest people in the world. (And for years, even after they split up, my father kept up the psychological abuse by threatening to take me away from her.)

Anyway, that's sort of off-topic, but it's not really. My mother's experience (and grandmothers' experiences, and so on), plus the experiences of the women I meet every day, were at the top of my list when it came to making decisions around motherhood.

[ginger_kitty]

(((msgoofball)))definately tell her your infertile. Or tell her you have decided to sell your ovaries for extra cash!

[msgoofball]

thanks lot49...i wrote a big rant in the 'letters' thread. which made me feel quite a bit better...40 mins. till the weekend!!! Have a great one!

[lot49]

(((msgoof)))

I don't know about you, but having a tense relationship with my mother makes me feel even less like becoming one.

Props to you for knowing how out of line she is.

[msgoofball]

yesterday i got into an argument with my mom...first it was about my cat being her 'grandkitty' and then it escalated to me and my husbands relationship with god and then she started to go off on how kids are part of my future and how it will be a blessing and that i will realize it when i have my own.

excuse me while i hurl in this round file next to me.

so this argument(while never being finished) made me late to run errands..my hubby calls me...i relay the info...and he's upset over it...and then i have to calm him down and tell him this is between me and mom...i'll let you know when to step in to back me up.

We have decided not to have kids until we can afford them. We also don't want them while there is no where to put them, i.e. house.

So we will probably adopt if we decide to do the kid thing. which is fine with everyone except my mom. which is odd since her sisters have adopted children, which we have accepted as our own flesh and blood.

And once we get a house...between me, mr. gb and you busties...i am telling her i am infertile...just to see her go nuts. Call it a simple payback for all the times she's doubted me and told me...or the fat comments and the 'oh we'll pay for your diet food if you want"..comments. bah.

[ginger_kitty]

heehee, lot. I guess it is the same the child/dog thing. I do always wonder or ask if it's okay for me to bring my dogs places. As I get older I've struggled with being more kid tolerant. Maybe I should think what would I do if it were my dogs?

But the locker room thing, kids just don't belong in adult locker rooms. There are a lot pervs in the world. Not to mention it's awkward changing infront of little kids. They aren't shy about staring.

Moxie, way to go on keeping the love alive! Awesome breeders like you are always welcome in this thread.

[lot49]

turbo, your story about bringing their kids into a the adult locker room when there is a family locker room is just...perplexing. Rude too of course, but seriously...trying to relate to those parents as the parent of a dog, I'm wondering under what circumstances I would decide to go into a non-dog friendly area when there is a dog-friendly area right next door. The only thing that I've come up with is that all seven kids must snap at and bite the other kids.

As for the staying home/parenting thing...one of the reasons I'm not interested in having kids is because I know to afford one, we'd both have to work and, frankly, I know my limits. Some people may have the energy for it -- I do not.

Of course, as doodle pointed out, one parent (ususally the mother) staying home is problematic too. I so wish that there were more options available to parents like good, part-time work (and I don't mean 35 hr jobs that are just trying to get around paying benefits), or like more flex hours and telecommuting, for both parents (so that one parent doesn't end up shouldering all the parenting while working too). I could go off on a rant about where "real" family values fit versus capitalism, but I'll stop myself.

I also think that a lot of people have a problem with mothers who aren't exclusively enraptured with their children, and that this encourages women to identify themselves solely as mothers and drop their other interests. I feel like some women go too willingly into that pit, but...I don't know. It always makes me sad when I hear a group of women talking, and they're not even communicating, just waiting for their chance to say what their kid does/is like. None of them are interested in the other women as people.

And I can't help thinking that identifying yourself solely as a mother will always backfire. Even if your marriage stays strong, and you don't find yourself in doodle's friend's situation, your child will grow up and not be thrilled at the prospect that his/her mother's life revolves around him/her. Unless you have multiple kids over a few decades and then start parenting your grandkids, you will have to find some other interests and purpose in life.

sheesh. Sorry for the long post.

[moxiegirl]

Katie..."alot of these people are more concerned with how things look then how they really are, and i really think it hurts everyone in the end. "

WORD, sista. It irks me to no end when people use their children as a mask for anything and everything. The "my daugheter has to match..." kind of bullshit.

And people (men and women) who bitch about no sex after kids...um...that;s YOUR fault, not the kids. I think people (men and women) use their kids as an excuse to distance themselves from partners or behaviours that were only mildly tolerated before kiddos. I'm sorry, but i have a 3 month old baby, and we have more "relations" now than before she was born!

Ok, breeder rant over.

[cloverbee]

wow. then why do they do it in the first place????? don't they know that the road they are taking leads there (to the bar)???
Are there any guys out there who can think for themselves and see a life outside of a wifey and kiddies????

[katiebelle2882]

I am totally with you there doodle. I look at so many women (this might sound bad) that are in the suburbs, who think they have this perfect little life and a white picket fence, they dont have any interests outside of their kids and gossiping and just kind of a smug view of anyone who hasnt chosen their path and realize that they are fooling themselves 60% of the time.

why? because their husband is the one at the bar hitting on me and my friends and bemoaning what his life as become. alot of these people are more concerned with how things look then how they really are, and i really think it hurts everyone in the end.

disclaimer-i am not saying its ok to cheat when you are married by any means, but hearing men (and women to be honest) talk about their lives married with children makes me realize why these things happen.

[doodlebug]

I started having identity crisis issues last night, thinking about the possibility of moving on from the job I've been in for over 10 years.

And then I started thinking about all the women who have tied their entire identities up in being "mom" and "wife" for years and years...decades....I can't imagine being able to stand that! And SO many women end up doing that.

I have a feminist friend who wound up putting all her identity into being "mom"...and when her marriage broke up, she suddenly had to cope with finding a life (job, school) beyond her male partner supporting her to be basically an unwaged worker in the home. She went kind of off the deep end for awhile, trying to find herself.

So anyway, that made me feel a little better about the choices I've made. (ETA: NOT the part about my friend, but the part about choosing not to make "mother" my identity.)

It's not that I think women (or men!) shouldn't make choices to stay home and parent, it's that 1) I worry about women who don't have alternative plans/interests and then end up floundering when the marriage falls apart (and 60% of them do - there's no reason for sticking your head in the sand about it); and 2) I think any parent who gives up paid employment to raise a child should be subsidized with her own bank account and private funds, whether it's the working partner or the government that subsidizes her. Raising a family IS work!

[turbojenn]

Yeah, I just feel like when you are *given* a safe locker room for families, and child care on site so parents can work out, you should just do your part and use those areas and keep the rest of the club an adult space. It seems pretty simple, really.

[sonik]

I dunno.. re: pillowcase exchange. The kid was with her most of the time when she came round.

Once there was a mother with a screaming crying kid in the store. It turned out that the kid was terrified of the mannequins. The ones we use have no heads. The mother knew this. I felt for the kid, he was really scared.

Turbo, i'm so glad you told them that. Especially when there are designated rooms for families.

[cloverbee]

"any guy that uses their kid to win emotional points with you just sucks."
so true, lot. thanks for pointing that out. I needed some perspective.
turbo, you did the right thing! who do these people think they are inflicting their kids on other people?
the little girl across the street comes over every time I'm outside w/ "can I pet your doggie?" with which I always reply "not today". so it's technically my fault she keeps coming over but it is truly annoying b/c after I tell her no she starts talking and I have no idea what she is saying so I usually just say "I don't know kid language" and walk away. I think it's annoying how people expect you to know what their kid is saying when it makes no phonetic sense whatsoever. It borders on condescending.

[turbojenn]

Crazy...thank you!!! I really needed that today!

clover - that guy is totally fucked up. I would've gotten snotty and asked what his wife would think of his behavior! Gah...stupid men.

I went to the gym this evening and had a horrifying child experience of my own....these two moms were in the locker room with 7 children between them, trying to get them showered and outta there, and they were whining, screeeaming, and running around like mad. Awful. I'm in the sauna trying to relax, and wondering why they aren't using the nice family locker room provided for them - it has plenty of showers. They other woman in the sauna with me was also not pleased. When I went out into the lobby on my way out the kids were running in circles and the moms were chillin on the couch chatting....nice for them, I guess. I stopped over and sweetly told them that I would appreciate it if they would use the family locker room next time. They sort of sheepishly looked at each other, but I heard them laugh when I walked out. I belong to a nice health club, and they have great programs for kids, but the locker room...that's an adult place. And when the kids scream at me "mommy, that lady's naked"...it just makes me twitch.

[lot49]

cloverbee -- wtf! God, I wonder if that approach actually works on anyone.

I've dated a couple of guys with kids...the longest was this guy I dated in college who had a kid who he didn't see anymore. He often moped about how heartbroken he was to not be in his son's life, but did nothing to actually be in his son's life (his ex and son lived nearby, so it wasn't a distance thing). What an ass. In retrospect, I wish I had made it a dealbreaker from the get-go...any guy that uses their kid to win emotional points with you just sucks.

On the bachelorette party...if it was one of my bffs that was pregnant, I would have no problem changing plans to make sure she had a kick-ass time (at the same time, my bffs would have a great time regardless of what we did). Anyone else: I can't believe it would even be up for discussion. If I were pregnant, the first thing I would do in that situation is offer to be the designated driver so that everyone else (especially the bride) could have fun.

[crazyoldcatlady]

heee! The Onion nails it again...

[cloverbee]

sonik, honest to god she was probably trying to get away from her kids and she had to have some excuse (exchange the pillowcase).
So I would like to air a grievance. I slept w/ guy the other day and come to find out he's married (who knew?). anyway, the story gets even better. So I confronted him about it and he starts trying to guilt trip ME! by saying he has a kid at home that calls him dad. UMMMMM.....you should have thought about that before you go sleeping w/ other women, then, huh???? and he said it like I would totally understand and instantly not be pissed anymore. WTF????????

[sonik]

I work in a store and a couple of years ago a woman was trying on some clothes. When she looked at herself in the mirror, her little son said : You're fat!!
The woman said nothing. Now i know children blurt out things now and then, but this was really malicious. I wonder where he got that from.


Or a mother whose kid wants to go anywhere but the store her mom wants to go to.
Mommy!! I want to go!!!! It sucks here!!!!
Just a minute dear, mommy is changing clothes...
MOMMY!!!!
But sweetie, mommy will come with you in a minute, it's just that...
Rahhh! I can't believe there's no room for being strict. Don't negotiate with a 5 yr old. You're the PARENT.

Also, there was this woman, quite young, who kept coming back week after week in order to exchange a pillowcase cos she couldn't decide which one to take. She's a mother, and when we had some smalltalk the subject became kids. I don't know much about raising one, but i don't think i was that oblivious. I mean, when people have particular talk about children stuff, i don't always know all the ins and outs. So in my head i took a step back and she probably sensed that.
She asked if i had children. I said no. I thought so, she said. Like in a way she was more mature than me, more grown up, except i make decisions and don't come back to the store 4 times in a row to exchange a pillowcase?! She was truly weird.

ETA: ditto on Doodle's comment. It wouldn't even occur to me to chnge someone else's party to suit my own needs.

[pollystyrene]

At a real wine tasting, aren't you supposed to spit it out after you swirl it around your mouth anyway? That's how people start sommelier training as teenagers. Couldn't they just do that? Seriously, get some cheese (no soft cheese for the preggos, though) and some bread, let them enjoy that while they spit out their wine!