[culturehandy]

I agree that people should be able to control themselves. I mean, after you rape someone, do you go bragging to your friends about it? Are you somehow proving your manhood?

[girltrouble]

i don't think you need to get jumped, but i just don't think that there is such a thing as asking for it.

no matter what, a man-- any man should be able to control himself. if not he needs to be in jail. really. there should be nothing that anyone could do that would make someone rape another person. i know what you mean, but that's like saying walking by a bank is asking for it to be robbed.

[octobersky]

I'll have to look up that book kittenb. IMO I've kinda thought that the whole fundie thing of daughters promising their virginity to their fathers and those virginity dances, rings and crap are a form of incest. Not physical, but mentally invasive. Quite creepy, especially when the government is sanctioning it to some degree by funding abstinence only programs in schools.

I'm probably going to get jumped on here and I'll take my lumps, deep breath: No, a woman never, never, never asks to be raped. Ever. But I will say that when I was in college and after college I have seen some women make some pretty dumb choices by placing themseleves in situations where it could potentially lead to rape, however it is NEVER a woman's fault even if a rape does occur and the jackasses should be prosecuted. Here is an incident that sticks out in my mind: At a party in college - it was a fraternity, but they were the quirky, geeky, nice guys for the most part - there were these three women who came to the party and one of them was BEYOND drunk and proceeded to pass out in a corner. My friends and I were concerned that she had alcohol poisioning and found her friends to see if they needed help getting her home. Their response? She did this all the time and she could just sleep it off. We were appalled. By this time a few of the guys were concerned, because it was an open party and they were afraid some jackass would try something with her. So my friend and I along with the lone sober guy loaded her into a car and took her back to her dorm after first fighting with her friends to find out where she lived. Had something happened to her would it have been her fault? Hell no. But the world we live in ain't perfect, many men have that sickly distorted view of rape being a woman asking for it. I do feel that you do have to take precautions to protect yourself from potentially harmful situations. Exhale breath.

[girltrouble]

and how did the rapist know about her shaving? it's just an excuse to justify the violence. it's just another case of not blaming the man for his actions, but the woman. take a look at any given religion, xtianity or islam, both of them take the time to talk about how women should be clothed because men can't handle being tempted. (insert eye rolling here.) that's the subtext of trials like the one you mentioned, culture. the way they see it, whatever bit of trivia they hold up was so over powering that the man had to. it's bullshit. it's just another case of the old boy's club, your patriarchy at work, one asshole covering for another.

[culturehandy]

I would really like to know how women "ask" to be raped? I remember a few years ago there was a young woman who was raped by a few men, and I believe these young men were from affluent families and one was the son of the police chief, and the defence lawyer was suggesting that she was promiscuous and asking to be raped because she shaved her pubic hair. Ummmm, how would that fucker feel it if was his daughter?

[kittenb]

She never says that in the book. More that incest is a product of the patriarchy. However, I can totally see how any child sexual abuse is training ground for living in the patriarchy.

x-post w/girltrouble: gt, you made some really good points there. Thanks!

Okay, I just did a quick Google search on the "training ground" comment. It seems to have been from someone named Pearlman but I cannot access the article. Thanks Maddy. I'll be using that quote in future trainings.

[girltrouble]

i just think a lot of men don't understand the way that women view things so differently.

i think a good story that illustrates this was the opening of an ep. of six feet under where a girl was leaving a club and she notices someone following her, then hears them call her name. in a panic she runs in the street and gets hit by a car. turns out the guys calling her name were her friends who saw her leaving the club and thought what they were doing was funny. it never dawned on them she might be threatend or scared by it.

in the same way most men just never stop to think about the impact of rape, and even when they do, they never really understand it in the profound way that most women do. having a dick is very different, the way you are raised, the way people treat you--you never feel vulnerable in that way. it really is so fundemental to the way men and women see themselves. but i agree it is a symptom of a patriarical society.

i think a lot of that bullshit-- the callousness about rape, is another case of men with shitty self-esteem trying to feel better about their masculinity by verbally assaulting women. not that that's an excuse, but if we want to understand what would make men do something so heinous, i think it's important to understand the way masculinity works. contrary to what most people think, masculinity is a very fragile thing. i think the closest thing for women is the idea of being a "good" or "bad" mother. rather than being this unshakable foundation, it's more of an achelies heel. the person's self-concept is something that is subject to everyone's perception of them rather than based on some physical fact. so masculinity is something that is constantly underfire, constantly subject to what everyone else thinks. and subject to instant demolition. as a consequence, your average guy desperately acts in whatever way will bolster his egg shell armor of manhood. the result is machismo, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, and all the accompanying, fucked up acts. our patriarical society tells the man that if he behaves in a certain way, essentually shitting on other people, then he will unquestionably be a man. until the next occasion we are able to judge him, and the whole thing starts all over again. men are too busy shoring that false masculinity to see beyond their own nose.

[maddy29]

kittenb-was it herman who says incest/child sexual abuse is the training ground for patriarchy?

oh man, i HATE that whole "walking around with money at night" thing. that means women, simply by existing, are "flaunting" that they have something to steal. so, should we all dress up like men? "hide" our womanness? or never walk alone at night? nevermind that most assault isn't a stranger at night kinda thing. gah-clueless!!!!!!

my old roommate was a christian dumbass-he was "nice" but just soooo clueless. he came home from a softball game once and said his team "got raped." I was like really? omg? what happened? every member of your team was sexually assaulted? omg!!! he's like no, i just mean we lost really badly. i was like ok, well NEVER use that word again unless you really mean rape. then later i heard my feminist (?) friend using it in the same context!!!! i was like omg, great.

[kittenb]

I was having a bit of a breakdown last night. However, enough sleep and a 70 degree day have done much to improve my mood.
I am just finishing this book called Father-Daughter Incest, by Judith Lewis Herman. Origionally written in 1981, it was groundbreaking and has shaped much of our current understanding of incest. The copy I have is a reissue from 2000. One of the concepts she discusses is how incest is another symptom of the patriarcal society. The fathers of the house have the right to take advantage over everything that is theirs, even their daughters. She shows evidence of this throughout history in incestuous fathers, seductive fathers, even in fathers who never touch their daughters and love them but have far too much invested in their daughters staying virginal. In retrospect, this seems so obvious but I had never really put it in those words before. And the reason that rape is something that men feel compelled to laugh at and minimize is because challanging it is threatening the patriarchy at it's core. Even men who would never rape are conditioned to mock it's existance. And so many of them will. Until they realize that they know someone it happened to. And then, it often still becomes about the man; "How can I help? Why won't she listen to what I think she should do?"
And it's obvious that sites like that horrible law student bullshit just exist to remind women what dangers we are going to be subjected to if we dare step a toe out of line. The other day I had some guy ask me how a woman walking alone at night was any different than him walking around with a wad of cash telling everyone he had money. Shouldn't he expect to be robbed? This after I spent 80 minutes talking with the class about living in a rape culture. I almost hit him.

[culturehandy]

When people make jokes about rape it disgusts me. How fucking funny is that? I can't even fathom why someone would make a joke about rape, totally inappropriate.

So mad right now.

[maddy29]

i hear ya kittenb. it is so disgusting and horrifying. and it seems like it never ends. there will always be some asshole somewhere...

i remember at a take back the night march when i was in college-we had guys in the dorms yelling "on your knees bitches!!" at us. it was like wtf???? WHY was that ok? why did they think rape was funny? it really makes me crazy. i go on craig's list sometimes, and its so fucking scary to see what some people will write about rape and stuff. this is the kind of stuff that enrages me and makes me so angry i can't even see straight.



you are doing such great work though! keep it up!

[kittenb]

Is it stupid and naive for me to get so upset when I see what some guys put on the internet? I am not talking about actual porn sites, even the truly heinous ones. I mean stuff like the "feministing" blog a few lines down. And today, on MySpace, two of the rape support sites I am linked too have been attacked by just random guys saying things like "bitches deserve to get raped" and "die, cum-swallowing whores." Really, really awful stuff.
I am torn between wondering how there is anything about this that surprises me and wondering how I still can belive that I will find a good guy. I shouldn't be surprised that this sort of ugliness is all around. For fuck's sake I spend all of my working hours with rape survivors, trying to help them piece back together a life that guys like the ones above just tear apart and stomp all over because they think they can. And when I see vicious internet attacks that serve no purpose but to retraumatize innocent victims it exhausts me. All I can think is, how in the hell can I know that a guy I trust isn't somewhere laughing at some poor female law student who is being threatened on-line and having people say she deserves to be raped.
This rage I feel makes me weak. It makes me so scared that things are only getting worse because now it isn't enough to attack a woman once. Now the attack must be followed up by coming to survivor sites and tossing random threats. DON"T THEY GET IT? Can't they see that all that does it cause a whole new pain? How can people be so mean and cruel and how is it that when I am surrounded by so much evidence that no one cares about women's pain, I still hope that these asshats are a very very small and vocal minority and that the rest of the guys out there are not like that? I just loose the ability to trust and I lack the desire to try after a day like this.

[octobersky]

More information on the sorority incident at DePaw. I'm really pleased with DePaw's stance on the issue.

Sorority Meltdown

[culturehandy]

I just wanted to say Vagina. I think I'd like to get a licence plate that had Vagina on it. Hee.

[girlygirlgag]

Do I post this in here? If so I only have three words...

WHAT THE FUCK??

I'm thinking about getting my nipples pierced so I'm doing some research online and I come across this shit. I've seen it all now.

I fainted when I got my nipples pierced. I got them both done at the same time.

[candycane_girl]

Just yesterday I was telling my mom about the sign controversy for The Vagina Monologues, where they actually changed the name on the sign. What city was that in again?

It just irks me because it's not a dirty word! It's a name for a body part. Just like kidneys, or elbow, or esophagus! It's simply a body part.

It kind of just makes me want to yell Vagina at all those peole who think it's a dirty word.

[culturehandy]

I have to say that I do have a bit of a problem with Bratz, they are making dolls with bedroom eyes! Gaaaaa!

I know that some people don't like the word Vagina, but to be offended by it? Aren't there worse words in the world to be offended by? I can think of too many.

[LoveMyPugs]

Culture –

I’m so sorry to stray from the vagina topic but my friends kid plays with the dolls called Bratz. Here's another and another.

These are awful and objectify and demean women completely. WTF.

Now back to your topic of the word vagina.

I personally don’t like the word vagina but I sure as hell am not going to start referring to my nanny hoo hoo as “down there”. It’s my pussy, cunt and/or VAGINA. Come on now…

[culturehandy]

Back to this vagina controversy. This is really starting to piss me off. VAGINA! Oh I'm bad for using such a word.

Really, I want to know what is so bad about the word VAGINA!

People really need to get the stick that are wedged firmly up their asses, out. People need to chill the fuck out.

I think if people are so concerned about the word VAGINA that everyone should rally medical professionals and we should now referd to VAGINA'S as down there.

So, we will give birth from "down there", when we are having sex "ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh, fuck my down there harder" and when when it comes for yearly check ups, it'll be "down there" check ups.

[LoveMyPugs]

girltrouble -

I can see having fake pierced nipples for transvestites. I was WTFing it for women who "want" their nipples pierced but are too chicken shit to actually do it.