[strongirl]

Vendetta's comments really touched my heart. I personally want to support other small-breasted women (and all women, really) in feeling good about themselves but also in giving an ear and a shoulder when they do not feel good about themselves. And part of being supportive is not criticizing what they do to feel better about themselves, whether that is implants, Botox, or whatever. Implants are unnatural but so are piercings, tattoos, mascara, and even shampoo for that matter. Let she who is without sin cast the first stone (Luddite lurkers step forward).

I dislike the aspect of our culture that puts unhealthy emphasis on women's appearance, I dislike the idea that we all have to strive for a narrow esthetic ideal rather than embrace diversity, I worry that women risk their overall health by inserting foreign objects in their chests in order to have bigger breasts. But as a caring feminist I offer congratulations to women who are happy with their implants, and concern to those who struggle with health problems and poor results with theirs. For us to regard women who get implants with criticism, scorn, and moral superiority just perpetuates competition and isolation among women. Let's try not to do that here (not that I think we do but interpretations can vary and I wonder if that is what Vendetta is reacting to).

Feel free to call me on it if I do it - I try not to but again, interpretations can vary. I will try, as Vendetta says, to respect other people's choices.

At the same time, Vendetta - there isn't necessarily something "wrong" with being flat-chested or small-breasted. It is part of the range of "normal" body types and has no negative health implications whatsoever. For my positive contribution to small-titty self-esteem for the day, here is a link to pics of a model who was in Playboy, believe it or not, and is one of their top models for promotional events, etc. Check it out - she's smokin' hot!

http://www.playmates.altervista.org/2001/l...c_hil_menu.html

[karategrrl]

Everyone else out there in the world has something we don't--and sometimes wish we did--and each of us has something that at least someone out there wishes they had, at least some of the time. I think that to be happy and feel complete, the highest goal for each of us would be to love ourselves the way we are and surround ourselves with people who support us the way we are. The opposite of that is to go to big lengths to do the opposite--that is, as I see it, to change ourselves to adhere to how others think we should be, or to our own sense of how we should be--if that image of how we "should be" is something that has been shaped by society or others' comments.

I have said before and I'll say again that if there was a SAFE, cheaper alternative to breast implants, I'd be hard-pressed not to do it, and that is true. However, I am confident saying that because I would only want to be a larger A cup, or maybe B cup, and my motivation would mainly be to make clothing issues easier, not to try and fit someone else's mold.

It has been difficult to get to this point, but I can say with conviction at this point in my life that I love my breasts and my body overall. Sure, if I had magical powers, I'd want smaller feet and hands (so I wouldn't have such a hard time finding shoes and gloves), larger breasts, non-grey hair (so I wouldn't have to dye it), perfect vision (no need for glasses), but shit, overall, I have a lot to be thankful for. There are people in this world without feet, hands, vision, etc. who would give their left eyetooth to be me, small breasts and all. So I try and count my blessings and, yes, even give thanks for the fact that having small breasts is my biggest complaint in life sometimes.

And yes, I do dye my hair, and I have had a mole on my face removed. To me, these are minor things. However, I consider implants inserted into the torso of the body--where your lungs, heart, and pectoral muscles are designed to be--not foreign objects--a major invasion of the body, and totally not worth it. Yes, to each their own, but I figure one must really hate themselves to be willing to take all those risks rather than just be themselves. That I find very sad.

I was once shopping for dresses in a store. I started talking to the woman next to me, also small-breasted. I saw a dress, held it up and said, "This would look good on you," to which she replied--with conviction--"Oh, I have no chest. That would look DISGUSTING on me!" I was rather shocked and saddened anyone could dislike themselves so much. My feeling--"yeah, well, I'd just wear my padded bra, or wear none and show off my nips."

Hope all this makes an ounce of sense! I am rambling!

[anarch]

Women getting boob jobs to make them feel "complete" - I don't criticize them because nothing good comes of such negativity, but that motivation worries me, and if they ask for my input, I say so. It's a short-term fix with a bunch of health risks to boot. Practicing feeling good about myself, surrounding myself with acquaintances and friends who are positive about small boobs, asking or telling negative friends or family not to say shit tearing down small boobage in my hearing, going out only with men who were interested in the real me and loved my small boobs because they're part of me - this is a long-term fix. It has had ripple effects that mean my happiness, and sense of being a complete person, depends on me, and people who genuinely care about me and who will be my supports for decades.

OK so it may not work out that way for everyone but I think more women would be happier in the long term if they walked a few miles down this path, just to see what would happen. The way I experienced it, it might have some parallels with alcoholism or other addictions (not that I know anything about those, I've just read a little here and there, so my apologies if I'm presuming) - almost impossible to kick without also kicking the environments and people who enable the self-negativity. But once those boundaries are drawn and the negatives are firmly told they're not welcome any more, there's more chance for positive people and behaviours to take root, and bloom.

On a lighter note:

I was talking with my cousin recently about buying my first bikini. I'm 36, never bought one before because I was way too self-conscious, but now I'm moving to northern CA and my husband is out there already and after walking around on a beach he's all wild about us getting me a bikini. So my cousin tells a story about the first time she bought a bikini, which had lots of padding. "They soaked up water like a sponge and when I came out of the water they started to shed all this water, so I crossed my arms over them but the pressure made them leak STREAMS of water, oh my God I was mortified!"



Maybe the newer ones don't do that, but she never bought very padded ones again.

[knorl05]

vendetta: is that a rhetorical question?
i suppose the point i've tried to make is that i am striving to make sure that i do not feel incomplete due to lack of more breast tissue. i'm not looking to fit some perfect little mold, to have something more than what i have, i'm continuing to strive to dispel the misconception that small breasts are undesirable or unattractive or shameful. i'm continuing to work toward accepting myself as i am, perceived flaws or not. this is my choice. you have the freedom and (possibly?) the resources to make a different choice. it's your body and what i think of that decision really shouldnt concern you one way or the other. you dont have to explain or justify yourself to anyone. who you are is who you are, do what you have to do. just know that there are people in the world who judge &or criticize over such choices, so be prepared for a negative backlash. sure in a perfect world, everyone would respect one another and their options or choices, but that's just not how it is. so do it for you and no one else, whether they be positive or negative reactions.

[Vendetta]

I don't need the media or society to tell me that something's "wrong" with me, I just need to leave the house and take a walk around to look at every other women and figure out that they have something that I don't. Some small busties don't care about it, others do. Some women feel incomplete, others don't. We're not all the same. So why should people criticize those who choose to do something for theirselves, if there's an option nowadays? Not everyone wants to have double D's on their chest and not everyone is stupid enough to do it. Some people just want to have "something", to feel complete. So why shouldn't we respect some people's options?

[neurotic.nelly]

I just saw that Kate Hudson is #1 on People Magazine's Most Beautiful list for this year! The editor said that she was chosen partly for her "natural beauty" and said how refreshing she is compared to so many stars with breast implants and nose jobs. How cool is that?

Oh so cool. I have always thought that KH's breasts were the cutest.

[karategrrl]

That Craislist ad is too ridiculous. I mean, "experiAnce"?? The perv can't even spell.

Though I agree it should be reported, it would have been fun to send in some interesting pics, as the guy not once said the breasts must belong to females or humans. I'd send a pic of hubby's hairy chest, my rabbit's chests, maybe a pic of chicken breasts. Or photoshopped images of three breasts on a chest. We could have fun with that!

[strongirl]

I just saw that Kate Hudson is #1 on People Magazine's Most Beautiful list for this year! The editor said that she was chosen partly for her "natural beauty" and said how refreshing she is compared to so many stars with breast implants and nose jobs. How cool is that?

[knorl05]

dj biz: you definitely are well informed! and just so you know, the way you present the information is also very interesting/intriguing and not at all dry. many times -imho- facts are presented without passion or an openmind, but you've got both, which makes me more inclined to "listen up"! very gifted lady you are.

is very sad and angering to see that ad on craigslist. obviously some creepy creep trying to connive his/her way into getting a whole ton of wannabe models sending pics in of their breastesis. if it were a "real" photographer, s/he would want way more legitimate information from the models... and if he or she were at all a well established photographer, s/he'd have better connections and ways of networking than some random ad on craigslist. arg. good call on reporting them!

[dj-bizmonkey]

i am such a freakin' nerd and grad school is just making it worse. the ONLY reason i know this stuff is because i just took a behavioral endocrinology class and a sex and reproduction class at the same time! sorry if i sound like a textbook or a know-it-all, because i definitely do NOT.

i never thought about that aspect of 'GI Jane.' it's the same with your fitness models. they are supposed to be the pinnacle of health, right? so if you are perfectly healthy, in body and mind, why would you need to go under the knife? isn't the point of being a fitness model to be, well, fit and not fake? i had a yoga instructor once, teeny-tiny lady, enormous fake breasts. she always seemed like a walking contradiction. everytime i looked at her, i'd think of george's dad on seinfeld shouting 'serenity NOW!'

i'm having a good breast day. on a random note, i found this ad on craigslist:

Art Gallery : Breast Models Body Parts (Metairie, LA)

No Experiance Needed!

Here is the opportunity to get into modeling and artistic field.

Quiet studio setting atmosphere.

Breast Models needed for Art Gallery Photo Project

Please send a front image standing with arms at sides and frame in the natural hang of the breast. No face needed in picture.

All models will be answered and picked accordingly for this project.

Compensation will be session rate according to model and experiance.

I mean, come ON, there is no phone number, no website, no explanation of the project. i reported it. if this really is an artist he/she is an idiot, but more i get the feeling it is some perve hoping some lady will be too dumb to figure out his scam. gross.

[karategrrl]

Thanks for the contraception lesson, DJ! Dang, you are one smart cookie. The literature that comes with the pills I take has two parts: a silly, pink brochure with cute pictures of lovey couples--that stresses the importance of taking the pill at the same time every day--but never explains WHY--and a poster-sized pharmaceutical statement filled with text in a tiny 6-pt font size, complete with chemical equations and diagrams. I mean, I am smart and I read the "poster" but still came away saying, "Whaaa?"

"i don't remember that line in 'some like it hot,' i'll have to rent that again. although there are plenty of buxom old movie stars like claudette colbert, jayne mansfield, marilyn monroe, there were also plenty of small busties representing. audrey hepburn, lauren bacall, bette davis etc. "

This is true. Give me that old-time glamour any day. LUUV Lauren Bacall.

"those pictures sound freakish. it makes me think of demi moore in 'GI Jane' (which i secretely love). she's all buff, doing pull ups, but her fake breasts (i guess she got them for 'striptease') just look silly and out of place. post them if you can. i'm always up for a little schadden-freude (sp?)"

I know, GI Jane!! I, too, love that movie, but the implants, to me, never looked right, either--they don't look right on such a buff woman, and certainly don't go with the whole philosophy of being liberated and strong, and above all--fighting stereotypes--as her character was. And we all know, it's the stereotypes that make small-breasted women often feel inadequate and "flawed," and thus "needing" impants to "correct" their imperfect bodies.

Yep, "schadden-freude." I don't know how to spell it either, but know of what you speak!!

[dj-bizmonkey]

this is way OT, but if you're interested....most birth control pills contain a combination of synthetic estrogen and progesterone. the main way they work is by inhibiting the FSH (follicle-stimulating hormone) and the LH (lutenizing hormone) which prevents ovulation from occuring. if you aren't careful about taking the pill every day around the same time, you run the risk of lowering your progesterone/estrogen levels to the point that FSH and LH are no longer inhibited and POOF! there goes an egg. 9 out of 10 times when a woman gets pregnant on the pill, its because she hasn't been consistent about taking it. you've got to maintain your levels! that's why sometimes it takes a day or two for you to start your pseudo-period when you are taking the placebo/sugar pills.

the progesterone DOES prevent implantation as it disturbs the endometrial lining. when you are pregnant, is actually what stabilizes the uterus so you don't shed the lining once the blastocyst is implanted. but too much progesterone overstimulates the endometrium and it because a hostile place for any fertilized egg. that's actually the way that emergency contraception works, overstimulating the endometrial lining to prevent implantation. that overstimulation is part of why you might feel so icky when you take it. RU-486 or the so-called 'abortion pill' actually blocks progesterone receptors in your uterus causing the opposite effect, instead of too much endometrial growth, the lining is shed and with it, any egg that might have implanted. i chose to stop having my period because i can feel the contractions in my uterus as the endometrial lining is shedding. it's like having a banshee in there clawing at my insides. no thank you. one of the fantastic things about the women's movement is reproductive rights! if you like/want to have your period every month, every three months, every year, every three years, you can! it's all about comfort level. sometimes i miss ovulating and i wonder what it will be like when i eventually go off the pill. i wonder if i will go off the deep end entirely.

i don't remember that line in 'some like it hot,' i'll have to rent that again. although there are plenty of buxom old movie stars like claudette colbert, jayne mansfield, marilyn monroe, there were also plenty of small busties representing. audrey hepburn, lauren bacall, bette davis etc.

those pictures sound freakish. it makes me think of demi moore in 'GI Jane' (which i secretely love). she's all buff, doing pull ups, but her fake breasts (i guess she got them for 'striptease') just look silly and out of place. post them if you can. i'm always up for a little schadden-freude (sp?)

[karategrrl]

DJ, you never cease to amaze me. You're so full of info!! I had no idea one didn't let go with an egg monthly when they took the pill--I just thought the pill interfered with the egg's ability to implant in the uterus. And here I am, always taking great pains to know just what's going on in my body all the time.

My gyn just told me that, accordng to a new statistic, after age 38 or 39 (I forget which), a woman's fertility spikes downward; each month there is a 10-15% decrease in fertility. Good news for me, since I have no plans for preggery (though a friend of mine, same age, is now 6 months preggy).

I agree, we are surely in the "big fake boob era" of our Western cultural evolution. I remember in "Some Like it Hot" Marilyn Monroe complimenting smaller breasts, b/c with them "clothes fit so much better."

I will have to post some scans of a workout book I bought yesterday. It is a really comprehensive book of exercises, but what is comical is that 90% of the women in it are obviously breast-implanted. Looks ridiculous. What gets me is the irony of it--many women in fitness have low body fat, which naturally dictates smaller breasts for many, since breasts are partly fat. But implants are **foreign objects in the body** which are, by definition, unhealthy (as evidenced by the body's trying to reject them--a cause of capsular contraction in many implants. Even in organ donations in the most compatible donors, the recipient has to go on a lifelong regimen of anti-rejection drugs.

[neurotic.nelly]

delurks,

edited: moving question to more appropriate thread.

strongirl - you have said everything that I intended but couldn't express. you kick ass!

relurks.

[dj-bizmonkey]

yes.ummm, yes and yes.

as to the period question, there is absolutely no reason why you should have to have your period every month, every three months or even every three years. amenorrhea/pregnancy are the more 'natural' states of women. if we were living back in the day, we would have been pregnant in our teens (maybe only a year or two after menarche) nursing for 2 to 4 years (which also suppresses ovulation/menses) and then probably as soon as we started ovulating again, we'd get pregnant. we have this enormous store of oocytes but we don't have the time to have them all fertilized and raised up. i've talked to countless gynos about this issue because i HATE getting my period. when bc was first invented, doctors modeled it after a 21-day cycle, which was fairly arbitrary as the follicular phase of most women is highly variable. they installed the time for "period" to make women feel not only more comfortable and natural, but also is 'proof' that you aren't pregnant. the endometrial lining you shed when you take your sugar/placebo pills is not actually a true menses, just the semblances of one. you also aren't ovulating at all, so you aren't shedding an egg. everyone has to pick what they are most comfortable with, and i had concerns about it at first too. i tell you what, i am never looking back though. there are also some preliminary reports that being on birth control for 5 years and then going off of it can significantly increase your fertility. maybe because you aren't shedding eggs? i dunno, because part of the problems in fertility at later ages is the degredation of follicle quality over time.

blah blah blah, says the science geek. thanks for the concern karategrrl, but everything is a-okay.

as to your question knorl, i think yes and no. for slow reproducing mammals (like us) it takes a considerable amount of time to change natural history. that being said, human beings are unique in that we have taken control of the majority of forces which selection can act on. we control our environment through agriculture, infrastructure and as such have mastered some of the worlds harshest places. we control (to a lesser degree) the power that pathogens have over us. we are just now beginning to control reproduction. this is always a discussion i get into with my dad. it's funny because he's very conservative, but he talks about genetic engineering like it's the next step in our evolution. i can agree to a certain extent but i fear it. that kind of power in hands of violent bigots bent on world domination is just too scary. until our moral compass catches up with the technology, we're in for a heap of trouble.

i don't think anyone is actively thinking, 'mmm, i like her waist-to-hip ratio,' or anything like that. it's some sort of engrained cognitive pathway. it's important to step outside of your human-centered perspective and look at us like the animals we are....the thoughts aren't conscious, they aren't even thoughts really, just inclinations.

on that same token, the degree and frequency of our copulations which far exceed the necessary amount to reproduce imply that sex and sexual relationships have evolved well beyond procreation. take gibbons for example. they are pair-bonded, live in territorial parent-offspring bands and are monogamous for the most part. they only mate maybe once or twice a year. that's it. that's all it takes. the fact that we are 'mating' multiple times in a day and multiple times in a week shows that sex has some other important functions.

the standards of beauty change over time for all cultures, because when you get down to brass tacks, beauty is designated mostly by culture. take foot-binding or neck-stretching, tatoos, even plastic surgery. none of those things really enhance our fertility or give clues to our health. but societies have and do find them attractive.

i run into this problem alot in my own thinking. i need to not be so narrow and reductionist. i think it stems from my quest to understand the motivation behind our behavior. i think some of these interpretations are oversimplified. i forget about 'divinity' (though i am certainly an atheist), spirituality, altruism, and all the ways that human beings reject what is in their best evolutionary interest.

always with a grain of salt.

i think we are in the big boob era in the west. it probably won't be over by the end of our lifetimes, but it will one day. if we'd been born in the dark ages, hell we'd all smell like crap, have rotting teeth and babies popping out every which-a-way (if we weren't dead from childbirth) but our small breasts would be the ideal, the ultimate humble expression of feminine beauty. i look down at my chest, smile, shake my head. 'just the wrong place at the wrong time, ladies.'

i don't think the mom/dad attraction thing is a total myth. our parents are the role models of gender, regardless of our sexuality, we probably gravitate towards what we know.

very long post. i think i need a nap.

[strongirl]

On the purported "3 factors of female attractiveness" (which I had also read about in other sources over the years), I'm laughing because here we are in a small breast support group forum and no one has pointed out that breast size is NOT one of the three factors!

Personally, I have observed most men find breasts sexually attractive regardless of size (I've asked many men "Do you like big boobs or small boobs; the vast majority smile and say "Yes!"), there are some who have a strong preference for big, and there are some who have a strong preference for small. Due to current western cultural influences, I think there are probably statistically more in the big boob camp right now, but this is not always the case. In the 1920's small breasts were so "in" that larger women (including my grandmother) bound their breasts, and in the 1960's (when I was growing up) I can recall hearing boys pine after Twiggy and diss Marilyn Monroe as being a "cow".

So I guess my point is that everyone is attractive to someone, and the qualities that people find attractive are mutable and change over time, with evolution and just for fashion/novelty.

I wonder sometimes about what's gonna happen to all these women with implants when the backlash hits and small breasts are again the beauty standard. It's tough to go back after implants, medically and aesthetically.

[strongirl]

On the topic of one's breast size going up and down, mine have always done that a lot! And I've wondered to what extent other women experience that. With my periods, I would typically gain/lose about a 1/2 cup size. Now I'm going through peri-menopause and have tried progestin-only birth control pills and now am on FemHRT (to try to level out problems with constant bleeding, mood, and memory) and my breasts are like they used to be the week before my period. Not painful, just a bit pleasantly tingly.

I also have had two friends tell me that their breasts grew quite a lot during menopause (they were complaining because neither of them wanted larger breasts).

Anyone know more about this? Are the hormone-induced increases permanent? (I'm ok with it either way)

[karategrrl]

Very interesting conversation, girls! Do you think the culture aspect of this is similar to how men tend to be attracted to women that have similar characteristics with their mothers, and women to men like their fathers, or is that a myth?

A theory I've heard is that we tend to become attracted to/get close to people who are like others we've had long-term unresolved issues with, as a way of giving ourselves a chance to work through those issues. For example, someone who grew up controlled by her father might subconciously find comfort in being with a mate like that--first of all, it's familiar (though certainly not healthy, when it draws her to someone verbally/emotionally/physically abusive), and second, it gives her a chance to work through it in a role where she is more equal (as a mate) than as an underling/child. Though this is very psycho-babble sounding, I think there is something to this. My hubby is not like my dad, but I realized recently he shares some characterisitcs with my big brother--someone whom I simultaneously was crazy about and who could drive me to the brink of frustation and insanity when he acted like a "guy guy."

BTW, I asked about the periods because as far as I know, I've heard/read it's not healthy for a woman to go more than 3 months without one. Or maybe the facts have changed since I heard that, which was a few years ago. Since I went on the pill 2 yrs ago, mine have been so light they're sometimes almost nonexistent. The cramps are much lighter, too, though they are generally spread out over many mornings the week before I get my "period." I used to have one morning a month of knock-down, drag-out cramps which only lasted a couple of hours, but afterward I felt like I'd been through a war. This is much better.

[newo_ikkin]

I'm on depo provera and I haven't had a period on almost 2 years. When I went for a physical and the nurse asked for the date, her initial response was "hysterectomy?". I'm only 23 so I got a laugh out of that one.

Very interesting conversation, girls! Do you think the culture aspect of this is similar to how men tend to be attracted to women that have similar characteristics with their mothers, and women to men like their fathers, or is that a myth?

[karategrrl]

DJ, maybe none of my biz, but no period in 3 years? Everything okay, I hope?