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> What Name For A Violent Act? (triggers Ahoy!)
ananke
post Oct 29 2007, 02:42 AM
Post #1


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I'm sorry my story was so hard for people to read. I sometimes forget how harsh it really was, because I tend to think of it as not particularly violent or terrible, in the scheme of things.

Of course forgetting how harmful minimising it can be, and that the betrayal of it causes its own set of problems.

But yes, what you said about what GB said - once you've got a name, you've got power over it.
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opheliathemuse
post Oct 29 2007, 12:50 AM
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Thank you ananke. You made me cry just now.
Venetia, logically you are correct about the lines being blurred. But when someone takes your consent from you, it's the scariest thing in the world.
I appreciate that the fine line is being discussed right now, and because I am dealing with my experiences for the first time openly it's very helpful. They are just such...confusing ones. They may not have been as physically violent as Ananke's but every one of them involved my consent being taken from me rather than my granting it. Mentally it was very traumatizing because I am known for being a strong woman and intellectually fierce. And because of this, I feel like I'm judged by people I tell. I don't want sympathy because I got raped, just as GB puts it: I want to label what's happened to me and move on, because it's caused me depression, PTSD, extreme self-esteem issues, and sexual issues.


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jami
post Oct 25 2007, 08:35 PM
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ananke... your last paragraph made my heart pound. that's how i feel. when you talked of the trees in summer. it's getting winter and the thought of snow making me feel trapped... remembering things. it's awful.
I'm getting back to the 'everything's fine' pretend mode. smiling, laughing. but it's not true.


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ananke
post Oct 24 2007, 10:42 PM
Post #4


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What we call it for ourselves doesn't necessarily mean that someone in the same situation would do it. For those of you in the Survivor thread, you probably know this, but when I was raped it was by someone I trusted to be my Dom, who was 'helping me' (in the Secretary-movie sort of way) to deal with my (truly) psychotic depressiona and SI. Who I has shared my predilicition for rough sex and BDSM with.

He turned it around on me, pinned me to the bed while I cried and used my menstrual blood to sodomise me.

He apologised afterwards, and I apologised because, OMG HE HAS TO LIVE AS A RAPIST OH NOES WHAT A HORRIBLE THING I DID TO LET HIM DO THAT. I worried about him driving home drunk. I blamed myself for years, because he knew all this stuff about me and that's why it happened. Except that's not it. He took advantage of a seriously fucked up kid (I was 19) who was drunk, and sick, and did what HE wanted to do. So the Stacey story is a little more personal for me. Because I refused to believe he did it, could hurt me like that. I refused to believe it. Until I woke up crying because I could smell him and it felt like that tiny little room again. But even then I chalked it up to bad sex. I wasn't clear. I was a bad sub. I was 'bratting out'. He couldn't read me clearly.

Which is bullshit. I said no. I cried. I pushed him away. I bled all over my bed. I pleaded for something else, anything else to happen. I couldn't believe it, in the realest sense. I just stopped, once I realised I had no control over it, nothing I said or did was going to matter. I shut down.

It took a year to remember. It took two to realise I didn't do anything wrong. It took three to name it rape. Six years later I still panic in the summer when certain trees flower. I still can't do certain things. I still feel awful after some things. I don't want this to happen to anyone else.
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greenbean
post Oct 24 2007, 09:22 PM
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Thanks girltrouble, GGG, and RV. To clear up any confusion without getting into details, my situation was I let this dude enter me, but halfway through the act I realized we werent using protection so I implied that he needed to pause to put on a condom, but he finished swiftly before I knew he was going to. At the time I just chalked it up to drunken, irresponsible sex, but now I'm facing the fact that it was worse than that.

GT, I understand and agree with what you're saying. To respond to your points:
1. When I mentioned dude was small, its not to say small dicks cant rape, I just meant that the fact that I wasn't in pain added to my lack of distress. I was more like "Huh? Is he really ignoring me?"

2. You're right, I do blame myself for being attracted to him, because I feel like I should have know he was an ass. We were friends for years before this happened and now that I look back, there were hints to this side of him. Plus *I'm* the one who instigated sex, I was fully tarting it up and undressing for him, which is so humiliating to remember now. I know it wasnt my fault just like it wasn't Stacy fault, but it does make things more complex.

3. GGG is right in her wording of awkward. Its like say, what if I got inthe car with a friend who is drunk, and she slams into a tree and I get injured. If she goes up for jail time for it, I think it'd be hard testify against her. I'd probably think, "yeah, sucks that I got hurt, but, well, I got in the car with her knowing she was drunk, and I don't really want her in jail..etc" Same kinda shitty situation.

As far as "what if he goes on to treat other women like this"...uh, yeah, thats a toughie. Every woman I know that has been raped didnt report it either, so I know the repitition of rape doesnt entirely rest on my shoulders alone..but I do feel guilty for neglecting the responsibilty of pressing charges. I guess I rationalize it with my stance that fear of punishment is not the reason we want men not to rape. I think we want men not to rape because it harms bodies and souls. For what its worth, the dude in my incident did apologize to me when I saw him a few days later, for, in his words "taking advantage". He also confided in a mutual friend that he was deeply ashamed of himself. Its not an excuse, but adds to the complexity if the situation. Like, if he's already sorry and I can't convince myself I was raped, how could I convince a judge?

I hope no one thinks I'm discouraging locking up rapists,..I'm just saying I understand how hard it is. I also hope we dont see so many angry arguements amongt feminists on whether all rape is clear cut or if there is a "gray" zone . I mean, discussion is important, but it breaks my heart when the rape issue turns into "blaming each other for blaming ourselves" cycle.


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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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roseviolet
post Oct 24 2007, 07:23 AM
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Greenbean, I didn't get to see your original post before you removed it, but I understand where you are coming from. I think it is 100% appropriate for you to label that experience in whatever way feels appropriate for you. If rape doesn't feel like the right word, then maybe it isn't. You were the one who was there & it happened to you, so only you can label your experience.

As I said back in the beginning of this thread, I once had a negative sexual experience with an old partner. At the moment that it was happening, I did not want to have sex but I froze up & couldn't tell him to stop. So to me, it felt like rape. However, I talked to my boyfriend about it and knew that it was all a matter of miscommunication and misunderstanding. He had no malicious intent. He obviously thought he was doing what I wanted him to do. Therefore, I don't consider him a rapist. And indeed, I don't feel comfortable calling it rape because I know he never intended to hurt me. However, I did not deny the fact that it felt like rape, whatever his intent, and that feeling left emotional scars.
I don't feel that he raped me.
I don't feel that he is a rapist.
But during the event, I felt frightened and confused and I felt that I had been raped.
I don't blame myself. I don't blame him. It was an extemely upsetting experience, but that doesn't mean anyone is to blame. As the saying goes, "Shit happens." I think my experience is a very good example of shit happening.

I am comfortable with how I labeled the situation. It's my life, my experiences, and only I can know how to categorize it. Others may say that somehow I'm in denial. They may say that I'm wrapped up in semantics and that I ought to "call a spade a spade". I just ignore them. Because I was there. And it wasn't "a spade". It was more complex than that.

Misunderstandings and miscommunication happen outside of the bedroom for couples all of the time. I think they can happen inside the bedroom, too. It's tragic, but it happens. That's what happened to me. That may be what happened to Stacey. But I leave it up to Stacey to name her experience.
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girlygirlgag
post Oct 24 2007, 06:37 AM
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QUOTE(girltrouble @ Oct 24 2007, 12:12 PM) *
3)do you think putting a friend it jail is anyless awkward than say, oh a relative? or a friend of the family? as someone pointed out, rape is seldom the jumping-out-of-the-bushes sort. it's usually someone you know. now, how you handle it, is entirely up to you.


I think she meant more of an "awkward" feeling from not really being angry at him, just confused at about what happened.

I have a situation like that GB. If you want to chat, PM me.


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girltrouble
post Oct 24 2007, 05:55 AM
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bean, thank you so much for putting yourself out there. it takes a lot of courage to post ones experience on topics (i often regret some of my own honesty on topics), particularly one this sensitve. i've always thought you were pretty awesome, and this more than confirms it.

as i said, how stacy, or you define your experience is up to you. honestly, that is for you to decide, but here is how i feel about your three points. please do not take it personally, it is certainly not my intent to hurt, insult or in anyway harm you. but merely to state my point of view:

1)size has nothing to do with it; your friend was raped, would it matter if her rapist was small? honestly, huh?
2)just because you consented at first does not make you look like a slut, it just means you were mistaken. you could make the same case for an abusive marrage. at first they consented to "love, honor and obey" but at the point where it becomes abusive the conditions change. often the non-abusive part was an act, but is the woman at fault because he seemed like a prince before hand? no. no, no, no! the CONDITIONS CHANGED. it BECAME abusive. in my own case, my domme who abused me was fantastic, it was like she read my mind, but conditons changed, my consent was withdrawn, BECAUSE it was abusive. saying i was attracted to an abuser is blaming myself for HER defect. by the same token, saying you were "attracted to a rapist." is self blame.
3)do you think putting a friend it jail is anyless awkward than say, oh a relative? or a friend of the family? as someone pointed out, rape is seldom the jumping-out-of-the-bushes sort. it's usually someone you know. now, how you handle it, is entirely up to you. i wouldn't dare tell you how to react to it, what i think you should do as far as reporting an the law, but let me ask you this question:
what if this is how he treats every woman? would that change how you feel about him? would you feel comfortable knowing that the woman he dates after you was treated like you were? let that be your guide. i think the one kindness we can do is look out for each other on this kind of level. if you can feel comfortable with these things, then i think you've made the right call. let your heart guide you. i don't know the circomstances of what you went thru, and if i did, the choice would still not be mine. what is right or wrong for you is your call. i still think you kick ass either way. thanks again for sharing.

and finally,
ven! you called me butta <3<4<5
i lurve you!!! (you soooooo make me want to start posting under that moniker again)


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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greenbean
post Oct 24 2007, 12:39 AM
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Thanks Faerie. I read some of Feministing and Jezebel and ARG! Its making my head spin. Its really a shame that this is dividing women. I understand that feminists would like all rape to be reported and rapists be punished. Many women dear to my heart have experienced undeniable and unexcusable rape, and didnt report it, which breaks my heart. But when I think about my situation, and how it would go if I had reported it, I feel like it would have gone horrible. First off, it didnt hurt (he was really small) and I wasnt scared, more like confused,..which doesnt make for damning testimony. Second, I'd have to admit that the sex was consensual at first, so then I look like a dumb slut who is attracted to a rapist. Third, I'd be trying to put my friend in jail. Kinda awkward.

But now I'm being told (indirectly, by reading those posts) "YOU WERE RAPED!! Not calling it that dimisses the term!!" ...but then on the other hand I feel like I'm diminishing the term by claiming it, like as if I told my friend--who was raped by an older boy when she was a 13 yr old virgin,-- "oh yeah, I've been raped too." I dunno, it just seems like I'd be seeking sympathy or drama or something, when other women have REALLY suffered.

Head spinning. Must go to sleep now.


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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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faerietails2
post Oct 23 2007, 10:30 PM
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*delurks*

there's been a lot of debate at feministing over the past couple of months (this is one such thread) regarding "gray rape," and they've been struggling with a lot of the questions you bring up, greenbean. i did get a chance to read your story before you deleted it, and it put a lot of things into a really different perspective for me. those are great questions you bring up that i'd never even considered until recently.

*relurks*


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greenbean
post Oct 23 2007, 09:22 PM
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Ok, since I deleted my other post many of you probably hadnt read it, but the gist was that I have been in a similiar situation that I still am not clear was rape. I deleted my story not because I was afraid it would be dismissed as not rape, but more because I was afraid some of you would berate me that it WAS. I wasn't sure why I was afraid of this until I read this from anoush:
QUOTE
There's also a temptation to blame yourself for terrible things because in some unconcious way part of you then can say to yourself that you can prevent a terrible thing from happening in the future. Ie, if it was because of something you did you can not do it the next time and you'll be safe.
Bingo. Thats exactly it. I still have trouble thinking my situation was rape because it didnt seem like he meant it, I did want to have sex with him at first, and I didn't fight him off like I would assume my natural insticts would do during rape...but most of all I dont want to change my lifestyle for fear of it happening again, so I guess I convinced myself that I was indeed in control of the situation. Ugg. Even during this epiphany I still don't feel like I've been raped, more like it was just an unfortunate accident.

Which brings me to this, for both myself and Stacy: Can rape be accidental? If a guy didnt mean it, where do they go from there? And if a rape victim feels he didnt mean it, will she be able to go on with her life without ever telling herself she was raped,.. or must she "call a spade a spade" before she can be healed? (I agree with Ven, I wish there was more vocab..are there degrees of rape such as degrees of murder?)



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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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venetia
post Oct 23 2007, 06:24 PM
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Yes, I agree with GT that this seems to be the crux of the matter. My problem is that I feel like I need more words than just "rape", like the fact that we have to fight so hard to have rape recognised as rape and rape recognised as wrong has somehow shrunk it so it fits through the eye of a needle.

I agree with Butta that continuing when consent has been withdrawn is rape, but also for me a communication isn't complete if a message was sent but not received. It has a different effect. So whether or not that withdrawal of consent was understood or not is relevant - irrelevant to the fact that Stacey experienced it as rape, (if she did experience it as rape) but relevant to how I would see Bob's participation. As I'm not him, I have no way of knowing if it was intentional rape or accidental rape. For want of better terms.
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girltrouble
post Oct 23 2007, 05:58 PM
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GGG, phobia if you have anything else to say to each other, (including apologies) go to the take it outside thread. your name calling-- both of you-- is a distraction. lets stick to the topic, please.

GGG, no one said bob is into rape (far as i know), we are talking about this single incedent.

i have to agree with ananke, and phobia, pugs, not to gang up on you, you know i adore you, it just seems that just as you say that phobia can't see this thru any filter but her own, it seems you can't see this save your own filter. i've never been raped either, but i can't say for certain what i'd do, and freezing is absolutely in the realm of possiblities-- for anyone.

i must call it rape, not because of some personal interest, i have none, but rather my definition of rape:

no consent, or continuing when consent is withdrawn is RAPE. PERIOD.

it doesn't matter if it is rough sex or SM, an husband or a stranger. who started what, called who names, is irrevant, saying "stop" or "no" doesn't make it rape-- the withdraw of consent however it is-- or isn't expressed-- does.

in this case it was her crying. no words, not speech, just something she'd never done before, and something that most people would recognise as a sign.

now, what stacy calls it is up to her, but my definition, i can call in nothing else. it's not murky, it's not muddy, it's not ambigous to me, my definiton is my ethical guide to my life and SM play, and there is no wiggle room. i prefer it that way. but i am the first to say i don't know everything that happens in a relationship, we are only getting a slice, i have learned first hand that there are only two people who knows what goes on inside a relationship-- any relationship. so i can understand the urge to say that we don't know enough, we don't know them, it's ambigous, its murky, but it's not.

go back to your definiton of rape. does it fit? does it not?

this thread is about naming what occured in this singular event, with what we've been told.

and as i've said, to me it is rape. pure and simple.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 23 2007, 05:16 PM
Post #14







okay
  • stacy wanted bob to take control and she wanted rough sex.
  • so she bratted out to get a reaction out of him.
  • bob got pissed due to her taunting
  • in anger he forced her down on the bed and fucked her while she cried and pleaded no to teach her a lesson
  • when it's over stacy explains that was not what she wanted
  • bob probably knew this but was too pissed at the time to care
  • now he feels scared and guilty and says something stupid
  • because of his stupid comment now she feels really bad
  • in an effort to cover his ass bob points out that she didn't use her safeword
  • the safeword was fucking stupid
  • anyone who dabbles in bdsm should know better then to use stop as a safeword
  • so instead of apolgozing he makes it worse and tells her that's what happens when she challenges him
  • stacy feels even worse and now is apologizing for something she shouldn't be apologizing for
  • bob still hasn't owned up to his part of the fuckup
  • stacy hasn't really fucked up at all because all the taunting in the world doesn't give her husband the right to fuck her in anger while she cries and fights him off
  • now the relationship is all fucked up and something needs to be done
summing it up that way i guess it was rape. although i don't think bob meant to rape her even though he did rape her. i guess it's all up to stacy now on what to do next. therapy is a must whether it's alone or together. i hope she is okay in the end and can move on from this terrible experience with or without bob. i really hope there aren't kids in the middle of this mess. good luck stacy!
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anoushh
post Oct 23 2007, 05:05 PM
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Word, ananke. Wish I'd been that clear in what I said earlier.

What if we could agree he didn't mean to rape her--leave that word out of it. I'm not convinced even then he didn't mean to get back at her, hurt her, take power over her, using sex. That sounds a lot like rape, even if it isn't called that.

And I don't care how pissed off, "provoked," etc you are--if you react by forcing sex on someone, even if you can convince yourself that they "want" it--which is what most abusers do--is wrong. And it is very different from having a shouting match, not talking to the partner, even slapping them.

The reason rapists rape is because they know there is something different--especially traumatic, violating--about rape. That includes partner rape too.

QUOTE(ananke @ Oct 23 2007, 10:58 PM) *
I don't know if Phobia is having the samereaction I am, but seriously LMP - sometimes rape victims shut down. Can you please please please stop with the 'well, I think it's not rape because what woman wouldn't fight/scream/say no/blahblahblah'. It's really really really wrong, both ethically and in the general sense that yes, women do shut down, particularly in partner rape situations.
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 23 2007, 05:01 PM
Post #16







deleted
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ananke
post Oct 23 2007, 04:41 PM
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I don't know if Phobia is having the samereaction I am, but seriously LMP - sometimes rape victims shut down. Can you please please please stop with the 'well, I think it's not rape because what woman wouldn't fight/scream/say no/blahblahblah'. It's really really really wrong, both ethically and in the general sense that yes, women do shut down, particularly in partner rape situations.
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kittenb
post Oct 23 2007, 04:29 PM
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I cannot tell you how much headspace this story has taken up in me for the past few days. And I feel like I should have a clearer answer than I do. See, I do work with rape survivors and dv survivors and I consider myself really good at what I do. I finally had to go back to the very first post to get some clarity on the situation. And this is the best that I can come up with.

I believe that Stacey was raped. I believe that it will be her choice as to what she calls it. However, judging from what was written here, I don't believe that Bob meant to rape his wife.

In the first post, TallGirl states that Bob had been taking a "Take what he wants" style for awhile, seemingly to Stacey's enjoyment (again, going by the post.) Now, I remembered reading that her taunting him was part of the game/foreplay, but on rereading it, I didn't see that as clearly. However, I still am not getting the impression that he meant to rape her. I know that sometimes people do cry during sex and I also know that sometimes people are not as attentive to their partners during sex as they should be. I think there was even a Grey's Anatomy episode where two of the characters were having sex and when the woman started to cry, the guy did nothing in response.

Like many people have pointed out, however, it is his comments after the incident that are scary. I want to know what he means here. Just because he didn't mean to rape her this time, what happens from here? Will he allow her to reclaim her "No"?

I think that they can come back from this if he owns up to the experience and respects her feelings of the event. That is, of course, assuming that this was and remains a one-time incident.

I still wish I had a better and clearer answer here. I have even consulted with collegues and friends about this. I think tomorrow I am going to my boss for her opinion.

Oh and to be really clear, I am a feminist, I am a rape survivor, and I am always on the victim's side. As such, I support the victim's choice, even when it is not a choice I would make. In a professional situation I would NEVER tell a DV survivor that she has to do anything, even leave her partner. I would support her ability to make decisions for herself and if she chooses to stay or go, I would help her find ways to make that choice safe for her.


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girlygirlgag
post Oct 23 2007, 03:57 PM
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moved to the take it outside forum.


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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 03:18 PM
Post #20


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QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 05:30 PM) *
You know what, if you are unable to participate in a discussion without behaving like a petualent child, maybe you shouldn't?


Heh, you've got to be kidding me, right? Please. You didn't have to start with the ad hominem attacks in the first place, dearie. So don't turn around and claim that I'm suddenly acting childish when I was just responding to what you wrote -- stuff that was, in addition, completely made up. If you can't read what I'm actually saying instead of what you are imagining in your head, YOU'RE the one who shouldn't be participating. Good grief.
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