[anna k]

Pencil test is whether a woman can hold a pencil underneath your breasts determining if she needs to wear a bra. If the pencil doesn't fall, the woman has "failed" and needs to wear a bra.

[honeybunch]

Hi, everybody! I'm new.

Quick question, what is a pencil test?

[karategrrl]

Welcome, strongirl!! Glad to have you here, all de-lurked and stuff!!

"the dynamic of men as consumers and women as product..."

Holy crap. You summed it all up in a few words, grrl. Very profound! I think you just crystallized why exactly it is that some nudity absolutely disgusts me and others I find erotic and lovely--it's all about the intent! Hubby can't understand why we can see a couple getting naughty in a non-porn movie and I have no problem with it, yet the biker/titty mag he brought home got under my skin so badly. You summed it up, grrl. Thanks!!

"Till then, I can't stop men passing judgment on me but I can work on not internalizing their judgments and instead embracing my own love and apprciation for my body...which is what this topic seems to be about!"

Sheet, yeah!

"flashing my own small and very sexy titties at y'all in a playful and affectionate greeting"

Woohoo! Lovin' it!!! Flashin' mine back!!!!

About turning metaphorical mirrors on people...I can't find a version of this online to link to, but I once saw a very telling cartoon--How men see themselves vs. how women see themselves. It showed a man and a woman, each in their respective bedrooms, standing in front of full-length mirrors. The man was fat, old, and gross, but the image he saw was that of a Chippendale dancer-type; the woman was beautiful, trim, youthful--a swimsuit model-type--but in the mirror she looked fat, old, ugly, etc. Very interesting...and true.

[anna k]

Thanks for posting those Lou Doillon pics, edie52. I saw Jane Birkin in a Playboy book and was surprised but happy that Playboy had featured a small-breasted natural-looking woman, and that they also had a photo of Robin Givens (tiny and thin with small breasts) from the early 90's. Lou Doillon has a great rock 'n' roll look that I like, much like Asia Argento or Lindsay Lohan or Kate Moss.

[strongirl]

Sorry about that repeat of previous post - I'm new and don't know what I'm doing yet. I've been reading your posts for quite a while and decided to de-lurk. You all are so awesome - what a bunch of smart, insightful women! wow.

Karategrrl - your urge to hold a mirror up to the old uncle is exactly what needs to happen - at least metaphorically to many men, if not physically to that specific one. Not that a person has to have beauty in order to appreciate beauty, but the dynamic of men as consumers and women as product has to change if things are going to get better. Till then, I can't stop men passing judgment on me but I can work on not internalizing their judgments and instead embracing my own love and apprciation for my body...which is what this topic seems to be about!

flashing my own small and very sexy titties at y'all in a playful and affectionate greeting,
strongirl

[strongirl]

yeah dj i thought the stats were a bit suspect too, what i have certainly seen online though is lots of vitriol about women who breastfeed in public, stuff about it being disgusting and inconsiderate...

and i'm sorry you had to put up with those morons. i normally stick to the middle finger approach because i never think of a good rebuff until afterwards...so annoying!

[beck]

yeah dj i thought the stats were a bit suspect too, what i have certainly seen online though is lots of vitriol about women who breastfeed in public, stuff about it being disgusting and inconsiderate...

and i'm sorry you had to put up with those morons. i normally stick to the middle finger approach because i never think of a good rebuff until afterwards...so annoying!

[dj-bizmonkey]

founded by puritans, that's for sure. i don't think we need to talk about sex less, i think we need to change the way we talk about it in the first place. we've got to let go of the guilt and embrace a more healthy paradigm,

these guys were obviously fucktards, what scares me more is that its groups of men like that who will stand by complacently while a woman is drugged or groped or assaulted and not do anything about it.

karategrrl, it's just been tough year, just these freakazoids and those bitches in the locker room at the gym. maybe it's just the school i go to (upscale, private university, plenty of entitlement to go around). old men critics are the saddest to me. i mean, i doubt that old uncle could even get it up, yet he still feels like he has the right to judge the sexual attractiveness of women. gross. just gross.

anyway, i don't want to get too far off topic here, as karategrrl says, back to our regularly scheduled breast discussion.....

[deepthinker]

we ARE obsessed here in the USA, men and women. there are all kinds of theories as to why. i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it. i think, for the most part, men like breasts, but only in the USA does it border on fetishism. there are also plenty of places in the world where breasts aren't sexual. they aren't an inherently sexual body part. they do give outward cues that a female is at least somewhat sexually mature, but that's about it. i hope that things will change in this country before all women end up looking like cut-up barbie dolls.

I think you hit the nail on the head here dj, sex has become this taboo thing in our society, so much so that it's "naughty" or "dirty" to talk about it, or to view certain parts of the body. It's treated like a game really IMO, when it shouldn't be. I think if the culture didn't talk about it as much as they do, then perhaps it wouldn't be so naughty or dirty, but just plain normal, like if one would go to a nude beach for example.

[karategrrl]

Holy crap, DJ, you seem to have the most horrid things happen to you!

I think you were more composed than I would have been. But definitely, it's the mob mentality!! I learned as a young teen to avoid groups of 2 or more men on the street. If it's one guy, it can go either way--he can be a jerk or a gentleman. If there's at least one girl with them--they're probably safe. BUT... the asshole factor goes up exponentially with the number of the men present in a group.

Many dickwads talk crap to try and ilicit a reaction. I have a feeling that's what they were trying to do--otherwise, why not just comment so only they could hear? Unfortunately, in a situation like that, either one must ignore the fuckers or kill at least one of them--there's not much in-between.

Beck, I do agree--the way many people put themselves out there invites "rating" and the wrong kind of attention. I firmly believe that a lot of the tasteless porn and junk out there is a big reason why I cannot walk 20 yards down the street by myself and not have someone say something. (Okay, an exaggeration, but not much.) Men grow up with that crap and think that's what all women are about. (My first boyfriend, for example, lived on a steady diet of cheap porn. According to him, every woman on earth loved anal sex--because that's what the women in the mags "said.")

This makes me think of my husband's uncle. The man is 70-something, in poor health, and...let me just say he is not exactly the picture of studliness. TV watching is pretty much his only pasttime, and when we go over to visit, he has to comment on every woman on the TV--"Nice eyes," "She's so fat!" "Ugh, she's so ugly!" etc. Sometimes it takes all my will not to grab a mirror and hold it up to him. Afterwards, hubby always thanks me for being so patient.

DJ, both my middle fingers up to those asshats too.

Sorry for all the cursing. This just makes my blood boil.

[deepthinker]

I'm guessing the alcohol may have had a bit to do with things. Not to excuse their comments mind you, but just saying.

[dj-bizmonkey]

beck, not a criticism of you, but whoever wrote that blog or whatever it is has got to be getting her numbers screwed up, at least when it comes to breastfeeding. i don't think you can arrest a woman for breastfeeding unless she's trespassing, because in all 50 of the United States, a woman can legally breastfeed. i did a search on the ny times website for that article, nothing to be found. as for women getting arrested for being topless (or topfree, which is an actual kind of social justice movement here) that i can believe. i live in new orleans and even here in the french quarter, you can see women get arrested.

anyway, speaking of unwarranted, unrightful scrutiny in criticism. get a load of this! my office at school is caddy-cornered to a frat house. don't ask me which one, because i can't read greek letters. i was walking to the convenience store just past the house and about four or five guys were out on the porch, drinking beer. i'm wearing a short skirt today (which is my damn right, i certainly don't blame myself for what happened next) and the guys started kind of cat-calling to me. i just kept my head up and walked on to the store. i bought a couple sodas for me and my friend back at the office and started the half a walk back. i had to pass by the guys again, so i steeled my will and then wimped out and pretended to be talking on the phone. they started shouting things to me like, 'what's wrong ice queen? don't you like dick?' gross. after which one of them said, 'don't be an ass,' talking to his friend. i didn't react, kept on moving. luckily i had sunglasses on as well. then one of them said, 'ahh, you don't want her anyway man, she's all out of whack.' (i guess he was referring to my bountiful posterior and my not-so bountiful bust) to which another replied, 'yeah, she'd be pretty much perfect if she had some tits.'

are you fucking kidding me?!!!!! i would have turned around and given them a piece of my mind, but i was had to get to class (in the same building as my office). i did manage to produce a defiant middle finger over my shoulder though.

i guess that last comment was meant to be a compliment? i don't even know. i don't know what was going through their minds. that bullshit mob mentality maybe. all i know is it gave me a mean case of the ickies.

[crinoline]

dj- yes, yes, and yes! To everything you said. The art point is particularly obvious to me because I see it every day in my art history classes. And on the rant (mine not yours) of guys rating women, I was shocked to discover that men I knew, intelligent attractive liberal men, do this! It is a cultural thing, that we "owe" them something. gross.

beck- I think we (the US) should do a PSA where it is pointed out that public breastfeeding is absolutely legal and normal. If I get into law school, I'm going to look into "spreading the word", the truth of the legalities of breastfeeding. If a woman is in a store, feeding her child, and the manager asks her to stop, he is violating her rights. It's scary how few people know that.

[beck]

i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it.

i think you're onto something there - if this story on 12,000 women being arrested per year for breastfeeding is true...yikes!
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/mode...-in-Public.html

[dj-bizmonkey]

so true, beck! i think anyone that puts themselves out there like that must have nerves of steel (or be terribly insecure, i think it varies and depends on the medium).

we ARE obsessed here in the USA, men and women. there are all kinds of theories as to why. i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it. i think, for the most part, men like breasts, but only in the USA does it border on fetishism. there are also plenty of places in the world where breasts aren't sexual. they aren't an inherently sexual body part. they do give outward cues that a female is at least somewhat sexually mature, but that's about it. i hope that things will change in this country before all women end up looking like cut-up barbie dolls.

i will say this, even though we seem to think that 'bigger has always been better,' any exploration of art up until the late 19th early 20th century reveals that the small breast was revered and idealized. i've seen renaissance paintings of adam and even and to be quite honest, it's a little difficult to tell them apart except for her longer hair and more feminine face. it bothers me to think that the small breast has had its day, but all beauty trends ebb and flow over the years. in 100 years, who knows which body part we'll be obsessing over and having surgery to 'correct.'

edit: crinoline, i just saw your post, i think we must be posting at the same time. men would cry and hide in their bedrooms if they had to live through the constant scrutiny that women go through every day. i think it's part of a wider culture, this undercurrent of thought that women are somehow beholden to men, we belong to them, therefore they can criticize us and use us as they please. i'm picturing the group of guys that does that sort of thing and there are alot of beer bellies, bad skin and balding heads (though i think bald can be sexy...) in the mix. it reflects a sense of entitlement that even the lowest of the low out of men, i'm talking the dregs of society, the sense of entitlment they feel towards women. we are meant to be attractive and availble to them at all times as well as subject to their scrutiny. maybe this sounds like hyperbolic feminism to you, but to me, it's a harsh reality.

[crinoline]

the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.

-The thing that really, really drives me crazy is that the majority of men seem to think that they can pass judgment on any woman's body at any time. (super overgeneralization, but whatever) Like, a group of guys will stand on a street corner and "rate" the women that walk by from 1-10 (and you know exactly the guys I'm talking about). The idea that all women are subject to constant scrutiny and grading of their appearance makes me nauseous. Just because we have breasts (no matter how small, lol) does NOT mean that we are here for men's judgment and approval. Just think how offended men would be if women judged their appearance in such an arrogant, dismissive way, all the time. ugh. /end rant

and it does seem that the US may have more unrealistic standards/expectations than the rest of the world.

[beck]

i really get the impression from this thread that there is more pressure in the US than there is here as far as having larger/surgically enhanced breasts (not that there isn't here, just maybe a little less so). perhaps the solution is to never read womens' magazines (or US playboy)?

as for that anais vert comment, the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.

[karategrrl]

It was a real ego-booster to see some bodies and boobies like mine in that artistic nude blogspot!

Yeah, about Lou Doillon's Playboy pictorial--the issue of her body being appealing can be an issue of personal preference, but I think if people think it's "weird," it's maybe more an issue of expectations--I don't know if her photos are typical of what's in French Playboy, but they're at least very a-typical of what's in most porn mags, at least in the U.S. So if someone picks up that mag expecting to ogle massive knockers, they're going to be disappointed. However, if they are more open to artsy nudes, they might like it.

She doesn't do much for me personally (on an arousal level), but I do think she has a very interesting look, and that I do appreciate. More than that, I am totally blown away to see something artsy like this--with a small-breasted woman, no less--in a mainstream magazine. Maybe there is hope yet!

[Vendetta]

That artistic nude blogspot is actually great for wannabe photographers like me lol thanks

[knorl05]

so i was feeling all good about my body after looking at those photos of Lou Doillon, because i have a very similar body to hers; in fact that's pretty much what my boobs look like on a good day. and then i scroll down and read: "anais_vert 2008-03-16 01:34 am UTC Her figure isn't all that great...something about it is strange. Her boobs don't look too great either" WOW. i really think the main difference between the appreciation of erotic art and porn, is that individuals find a naked body esthetically appealing, regardless of it's irregularities, with the former. it's like erotic art is a feast for the eyes, while speaking to the mind/body/soul, and porn only serves the specific purpose to get a person off. bah.

so yeah i really share your sentiments edie. and of course dj biz. and all my other lovely busties who know what its like.

edit-i think this would be the healthier response for me: they are entitled to their opinions and i must not take it personally because they are not speaking specifically of me only someone with whom i can relate. if i were to pose naked, it'd be important to remember that there may be adverse reactions to my form, but considering i chose to put myself in that situation, i'd have to be ok with it. cant really change their minds.. ideally we could open them, educate them, but there is no guarantee they would or could be influenced by anything other than the establishments of which created them. ok. now i feel better.

artistic nude blogspot