[starship]

Knew they were the in-thing at some point Crinoline . The art stuff was really interesting. Im pretty sure most women still look that way but we just dont see it enough. It's strange how seeing someone with a body similar to your own can make you feel more validated. & i really hope youre right about the 'breast obsession bomb'. Enough with the boobies already...
Yeah, that was the bra I was talking about. I saw something about it in a magazine and thought that surely if it worked like they said, everyone would invest in one...they failed to mention the minor detail of wearing it for 10hrs though! thats crazy. And if its only swelling like karategrrl said then wouldnt it just go back down again when you stop using it? Sounds ridiculous anyway...

[dj-bizmonkey]

thanks for that tour through the art world, crinoline! i remember looking at boticelli's 'birth of venus' when i was in florence (or is it in milan, i can't remember which) and feeling very close to her. even though my skin is alot darker, her body reminded me of my own. i liked the kallpygos venus as well, from which we derive the word, callipygean- posessing a large, beautiful posterior. it's one of my favorite words.

as for the 'brava' sucking bra method, i'm embarassed to say that i've done some research on it. they do warn about skin irritation, but it actually does work (kind of) according to the research. there are a few articles published in respected scientific/medical journals, however the sample sizes are pretty small for each study (no more than 40 women) and most women were able to pump up about a cup size or less. i read the article in 'elle' magazine about it and the technology is based on reconstruction procedures for limbs etc and also breast reconstruction for women who have had masectomies. it costs about $1200 and you do have to where it for 10 hours a day for three months. who has time for that? not anyone i know. simply, not worth it to me.

[karategrrl]

Has anyone seen/thought about trying that weird big sucky bra thing that er 'stretches' your boobs bigger?

My friend tried that. I forget the name of it at the moment, but it's this twin suction device (think breast pumps) that you have to wear for like 10 hours a day or some crap. It's supposed to stimulate breast growth. Well, it does make them swollen for a short time--a few hours(?) because, hey, if you suck on anything for long enough, it gets swollen! (Hmmm...feel free to read into that anyway you wish...but I digress!)

My friend got BLISTERS on her chest skin from using this device. Ridiculous. And after all these hours she spent doing this and basically getting diaper rash on her breasts, her breasts are the same. Waste of time, money, energy!

[crinoline]

Boobs have become a fashion accessory. It's like how in Elizabethan times people painted their faces with lead and drew veins on their beasts to make themselves appear pale and white; now they smother themselves in orange crap to look more exotic. Apparently small boobs were all the rage in the 40s too. but dont quote me on that...anyway, societys general perception of beauty changes all the time. Just because we happen to be in an era which praises traits we dont posess does not mean that we arent still beautiful. So-called unconventional beauty. (the best sort smile.gif).

Yes! I'm an art history minor, and it's amazing to watch the preference for the "ideal" body type change over time. The 1940's (unless you mean another 40s) were actually the beginning of the sweater girl (And V-girls, painted on planes). The 1920s were a time when small breasts were so in vogue that women bound their chests, like we pad our bras today.
Here is a good article that provides an accelerated survey of the female nude in art.
It's also true that the breasts rendered by artists are natural breasts, unless it is an extremist work. And across time, natural has been beautiful. It still is. Notice that the Venus de Milo , which is a mathematically perfect female form, does not have cleavage. It's not necessary.
I hope that we are merely suffering the tail end of the large breast obsession bomb that went off in the 1950s. I think it's subsiding in waves.
Anyway, appreciate what you've got, and think how beautiful you would look on canvas .


As for the sucky bra- Gaahhh! No!! What is that!?

[starship]

well I dont think we'd have these thoughts if it wasnt for society and the norms it imposes. The bra thing annoys me. I think if padded bras didnt exist then it would be much less of an issue because seeing women with smaller breasts would be more normal and perhaps accepted. Most women cover them up as though its a dirty shameful secret (myself included). At the same time I like to have the illusion of boobs because i think it makes me look better. simple as. I look more proportionate and clothes fit nicely. Im not gonna ditch them any time soon but cant help feeling like Im contributing to the problem myself by making small breasts seem so rare and irregular. hmm, its a conundrum. I think if I felt it looked good Id have no problem going au-naturel. I found a fab bikini the other day which is slightly moulded but doesnt really add anything, and it looks great on me:). Boobs have become a fashion accessory. It's like how in Elizabethan times people painted their faces with lead and drew veins on their beasts to make themselves appear pale and white; now they smother themselves in orange crap to look more exotic. Apparently small boobs were all the rage in the 40s too. but dont quote me on that...anyway, societys general perception of beauty changes all the time. Just because we happen to be in an era which praises traits we dont posess does not mean that we arent still beautiful. So-called unconventional beauty. (the best sort ).
Recently Ive noticed that the general consensus seems to be that the shape is far more important than the size. Hmm, not too sure if I rate the shape of mine either:/. dang
Has anyone seen/thought about trying that weird big sucky bra thing that er 'stretches' your boobs bigger?

[knorl05]

((karategrrl))

starship: i dont "blame" society necessarily.. we are each responsible for ourselves, our feelings, and our thoughts. i'm sure there are plenty of small breasted women in the world who are most likely unaffected by anyone else's opinions about breast size. i suppose the point that i was trying to make is that i think we have to figure out where these 'issues' originated, in order to get a better understanding of ourselves. there are some women who are comfortable with their bodies, and there are some women who arent as much. when i'm around people who accept me for whom i am, i could really care less. but when i'm confronted with messages from the media/society, i feel ill, insignificant, and inferior. and why is that? i can be so confident on one level, and completely neurotic and insecure on another.. and i'd much rather be consistently ok with myself than try to hide or deny the things i dont really like about myself. i hate feeling not-good-enough, and i'm sure most other people do too.. that's why they turn to the silicone or the sports cars or the bigger [thisthatortheother] from a pill. yes i wear water bras. and before i started wearing them, thoughtless people through the years straight up told me that my boobs dont measure up. granted that was when i was a younger, but it still stuck with me. so if i have to throw a water bra on and forget about it, i will. maybe one day, quite soon since i'll be turning thirty, i'll start wearing my regular bras more often than not... i dunno. i guess i see water bras the same as i see wearing make up, at the end of the day i can return to my regular, irregular self. and i will always have the opportunity to explore my thoughts further to finally be liberated from these useless concerns -vs- if i were to do something drastic to change my appearance i would subsequently always feel as though i sold myself out. does that make sense?

ps. i am SO buying that shirt.
pps. dont mean to be a thread hog. *snortsnort*

[starship]

This thread has been an education in itself.

Sure I still want boobs (please God?). But it's only as big an issue as you make it. Im still hot. Im still sexy. and most importantly Im still me. Looks can only get you so far and make you so happy (unless you lack the intelligence to aspire further than shallow wants)

Hmm I blame society too Knorl. But on the other hand, arent I part of society...I wear padded bras. As if to say breasts like mine are shameful and need to be disguised. I feel like I can't complain about the society I contribute to. I feel like Im just as bad as the women who bitch and turn their noses up at other small breasted girls. One day I shall ditch the bras....

I want this. I want the balls to wear this.

[karategrrl]

Knorl, I couldn't have said any of that better myself!

[knorl05]

yes karategrrl that is a good one..

thoughts. primarily centered around the comment that dj biz made, that as liberated feminists we're not supposed to be fettered by ideas that our predetermined femininity/sex appeal determine our worth. and that's entirely right on... i realize how much time i've wasted on hating my body, and the psychological ramifications that i've encountered as a result. we can't truly be liberated or empowered if we are allowing ourselves to fall victim to prejudices and misconceptions of those who are not liberated or empowered.

and i suppose that's where a bulk of our problems lie.. the society, culture, community, belief systems that nurture us are rooted in these very traditional and homogeneous ideals. and because we are a member of these things whether or not we like it, we are going to be affected by them. and so that is the challenge.

to admit that particular influences impose on our lives and well being, is not the same as mindlessly following these influences, imo. unless we completely shelter ourselves from the (un)real world, we are going to have to deal with these very real things that are going on around us. and that, is what i find so valuable about this board. not just that we are all carrying the same weight, but that we are choosing to take it on and figure it out, and help eachother along in the process.

so love and hugs to my fellow (small busted) busties for being such strong women.

[karategrrl]

Hey guys, another empowering song I discovered: “Video” by India Arie. It’s not new, but new to me. There’s a great line in it: “Keep your silicone/I prefer my own/What God gave me is just fine…”

She’s so cool.

[karategrrl]

"They had hired a professional oriental dancer like she was a stripper! And then they wanted to stuff dollar bills in her costume!"

Ugh. With the popularity of contemporary stripping, men expect all kinds of dance to be like that. I am happy they didn't get any entertainment that night!

"In fact, several women in my dance troupe will not perform if there are men present for cultural/religious reasons."

You go, girls! I agree--I would feel more comfortable dancing for women only so as not to be ogled at. But I would dance for my hubby!

"On the topic of small boobies, I was depressed because my boobs were at the smallest end of their cycle (they go up and down about half a cup each month). Crinoboy was like "let me see them" so he proceeded to examine them thoroughly before announcing "they're perfect!". lol, I feel like I passed inspection!"

That is SO cool he said that. Hey at least yours go up and down. Mine just stay down!

[crinoline]

You should take a class! Look around your community, many colleges and ballroom facilities offer classes. Dancing has always made me feel more feminine. Belly dance (or raqs sharqi if you're interested) in particular makes me feel powerful and feminine. And, small breasts can be an asset when you're busting out the shimmies. If you got hips (and everyone's got hips), you can dance.

Speaking of misinformed men, a friend of mine had a dance gig at what she thought was a wedding reception, but it turned out to be a bachelor party. They had hired a professional oriental dancer like she was a stripper! And then they wanted to stuff dollar bills in her costume! Needless to say, they were left without entertainment for the night. Even at legitimate dance events, some guys can't seem to keep their hands to themselves (pigs.).

I told my hubby how historically, female belly dancers danced for other females--males had male dancers, because the genders were kept segregated. He was totally shocked at that! Ha.

-exactly. In fact, several women in my dance troupe will not perform if there are men present for cultural/religious reasons.

On the topic of small boobies, I was depressed because my boobs were at the smallest end of their cycle (they go up and down about half a cup each month). Crinoboy was like "let me see them" so he proceeded to examine them thoroughly before announcing "they're perfect!". lol, I feel like I passed inspection!

[karategrrl]

I do want to say though, as a belly dancer myself, that we are NOT equivalent with "strippers" or anything like that. In the U.S., belly dancing has been sexualized as a dance for men, when it actually originated as a dance to celebrate femininity. We (dancers) are constantly being confronted with misconceptions, especially from men.

Hey Crinoline,

I love belly dancers/dancing--I know a little about the background of the art. My issue is not with the dance but--as you mentioned--how American men seem to perceive it. Unfortunately, I think they do liken it to stripping because it's the closest thing they can relate it to. I told my hubby how historically, female belly dancers danced for other females--males had male dancers, because the genders were kept segregated. He was totally shocked at that! Ha.

I apologize if I sounded like I perceived it wrong. Considering that the men that were to be in attendance at this particular party were industrial workers and don't know a thing about dance as an art form, it would have been a crotch-grabbing, ogling thing to them--and that's what would have bugged me.

Actually, I would like to take a class.

[crinoline]

hi all!
I glad ya'll worked everything out, karate grrl. I do want to say though, as a belly dancer myself, that we are NOT equivalent with "strippers" or anything like that. In the U.S., belly dancing has been sexualized as a dance for men, when it actually originated as a dance to celebrate femininity. We (dancers) are constantly being confronted with misconceptions, especially from men.

knorl05- I want that blue bathing suit!

ETA: Tropical conference sounds good to me! I'm already at the beach, so we could meet here and head off into the sunset... (with IBTColadas, of course)

[karategrrl]

Hey there ladies, got to keep it brief--I'm at work--but wanted to give you all an update.

I and the man talked again. He's known since the weekend I've been in a funk--not just over the magazine but his apparent inability to talk about how I felt about it. We had a big powoww last night and it's all straightened out. And you know what? He commented that he thinks a lot of of the girls and poses in that biker mag looked stupid--the exaggerated arched back of the girl laying on the bike, for example.

What's even cooler is he confessed he declined going to a work friend's 50th BD party last weekend (he alone was invited) because there were going to be belly dancers there, and he knew that would bother me! I guess he'snot sucha blockhead after all...

"good ole milla jovovich"

Sheet yeah, knorl. She's one of my faves. I especially like how the material over her breasts is wrinkly--not taut--and she just doesn't care!

Oh, and Starship, about those boys on the tube--there's the possibility the one who said the breasts were small may have said that to try and seem "manly" or cool to his friend. Not that it makes what he said okay, of course.

Have a great busty day, ladies!

[knorl05]

sad t'aint it starship? terribly misinformed.

so i dont have any hollywood heroines but if i did, she would be one of them:

good ole milla jovovich

[starship]

On the tube today alongside two teenage boys oggling over page 3 (not sure if youre familiar with the british phenomena that is page 3- way for naive pumped up barbies to get into a cheap tabloid paper). They were discussing the girl and when i heard one say "I dont like her, her tits are too small" naturally my nosey side got the better of me. I did a subtle lean to read the wall map manouver only to be confronted with what must have been at least large C-cups! Blimey. If they think that's small Id dread to think what theyd make of me (not that the little perves would would ever have the honour of seeing me naked but still). It kind of worries me that young boys are getting an increasingly distorted impression of what women look like. How the hell are those two going to react when they finally get their grubby little hands on a real woman. I feel even more sorry for the girls who have been left with the job of educating them on reality. The media is cultivating a generation of morons

anyway...

Im up for the tropical conference too!! would be refreshing to be able to wear a bikini with pride and not feel like a complete goose in a much dreaded beach scenario

And men definately do NOT get it. I usually use the ole' penis simile to bring it home a bit. Not that my guy has any problem in that department but Ive tried asking him to imagine if he had a 1 inch willy and the world was full of calvin klein posters, a sweeping fashion trend of men wearing spandex pants, changing rooms with porn-star-esque companions, other 1inchers getting plastic stuffed up there through sheer shame etc etc. I think it makes it easier for men to understand because (no bitter sexism intended) theyre usually far better at sympathising with themselves than anyone else...

(((Vendetta)))- It probably made it more of an issue for you because you had bigger breasts for a while and then they were taken away. I guess the grass musta been greener for once. Sounds like youre making lots of changes in your life though which can only be a good thing . Perhaps if you're happier in other areas you wont be so fixated with your boobs anymore. I tend to find that if Im having a bad time in other parts of my life then my breast issue will seem 10x worse. I have no idea why :/. It's like I gather up all the negative things for one big outburst of self pity. ok im rambling now. the moral of the story is..youre still the intelligent, strong and wonderful person that you was before and there's so much more to life than how you look (which im sure is completely gorgeous anyway). Also, the pills probably arent helping much. Mood swings from those pesky things have driven me to cosmetic surgery websites more times than Im willing to admit. keep positive and stay strong x
Im always envious of women with naturally ample breasts but theres lots of other things i look at on other women and admire too. When looking at other people I usually tend to look at the positive things and it was only recently I realised that plenty of others probably do the same to me too. Okay, so im not likely to get a passer by admire my wonderful breasts but I bet Ive had a few envious looks shot towards my booty before...

I only popped in to mention the misinformed adolescents :/...

[Vendetta]

Hei star, I haven't been so good lately, no... I kinda came out from myself and took a deep look... and what the fuck? I'm 24 years old, i've never had real problems about my breasts before, what's going on? It has affected my whole life, you wouldn't believe how. I understood it started seriously after my breasts had shrunk again, that new-bc-pill thing. I just couldn't deal with it. The padded bras didn't work anymore on a "cleavage", the bikini didn't look so good anymore, I had to give away all the fancy stuff I bought, people stopped telling me I was more womanly and I didn't get any of the attention my bf gave them then. I had the most amazing self-esteem season in my life, I was feeling outstanding and my sex drive was furious. They were pretty small but it did all the difference. It's awesome to actually have some breasts. I just couldn't deal with it. So I started being obsessed. I've switched pills 3 or 4 times and you can imagine what a hormone cocktail i've been throught. I'm so ashamed of that. I've done everything a person can't do, knowing I was becoming totally obsessed and knowing perfectly where it would end up. I almost threw away a relationship. I'm suffering from low self-esteem, not because I have small breast but because I'm so unhappy with them. I can't believe I can actually put up so much importance on that. I hate dressing up, I hate taking a bath, I hate looking in the mirror and sex is not so good anymore. And if guys have preferences, I have preferences too and I do respond to breasts on other women. I can't respond to mine.
I've been putting my life together lately, I quit my 1 year job because I spent 9hrs per day completely alone with a computer, and we all know what happens when we spend too much time alone with ourselves. So changes will be good. I know I'm going to be fine. I'm just so ashame of myself. "I stay up and clean the house, at least i'm not drinking, run around just so I don't think about thinking" - Amy Winehouse

[knorl05]

i believe the porn debate to be never-ending. i used to frequent the porn thread and share my thoughts on the matter but i'll spare everyone in here my perspective. especially because it seems to be in limbo due to the fact i respect, or rather i can appreciate, both sides of the coin.

either way. karategrrl so sorry about the upsetting situation with your man, but i think it's awesome he showed you respect in the end and gave up the mags. i really do think men just sometimes dont think about that stuff. pretty women are saturated over everything that men buy, because advertising companies know that's what men respond to. i truly believe like dj biz said that since he's with you that indicates the quality of his character, and i dont think he got the mags to oogle over the naked chics in it. i do understand how upsetting it is though because it can feel like a slap in the face, as though he should just know better than to bring something like that into the house. especially if the pics were so offensive to you that they made you physically ill.

i'm beginning to feel sorry for men who need or enjoy overt sexuality shoved down their throats, it's rather pathetic to me. this is by no means a reference to your man karategrrl.. just thoughts i'm having on the big breasts vs small breasts = sexual vs nonsexual. i love the point that edie made about most of the women with fake breasts are probably small chested women naturally. it is *typically* not normal or natural to have huge mammaries if the woman herself is not also on the larger side. and the fact that any of us with smaller boobs think that we are somehow not the norm, shows how trends do not tend to reflect real life. breasts have become objects, material gains for those who want to look more flashysexyostentatious (for the most part). yes it's awful to feel like we pale in comparison to anyone, regardless of breast size, but that is unfortunately on us whether or not we allow it to affect how we see ourselves. that feels rather cold as i type it but i dont mean it to be. i've just come to realize there are always going to be sexier women than me out there, smarter women, wittier women, more talented women... shit, i've come across many of them in the bust lounge.. and that's just how it is. i want to see women genuinely feel good about themselves and whether or not i agree with their choices, that's not for me to decide. sure i may sometimes feel inadequate or uncomfortable with my breasts, and sure it annoys the hell out of me that there are so many shallow people in the world who play into the objectification of the female form... but as long as i got me busties i'm good. meaning. you ladies really do rock. oh no. six am. yawn.

[edie52]

A tropical conference would be a blast! I wonder if people around would notice what we all had in common! (Probably.)

Regarding porn: I once asked my boyfriend if he looked at it (since we'd been apart and all) and he said no. I was like "phu-leeze!" so he admitted that of course he had watched it before, but he didn't really like it. I don't know whether to believe him or not, but in any case he's certainly not a porn fiend so it's not a problem. I sort of believe him because he truly is a feminist and he seems to have a strong preference for very natural or even unusual/unconventional looking women. But even knowing all that if I found a magazine or video in his possession that featured women with big breasts it would probably sting. A lot.