[greenbean]

Totally Cha Cha! I too would like to see where the "correct, feminist way to have sex" pamphlet is being handed out, cuz I haven't gotten one!

[chachaheels]

I think Twisty is a little belittling...and, in her defence (though I hate her attitude in that exerpt) I'm sure she's just trying to figure it all out. I know of another blogger who is finally having the kind of SM sex she's really wanted to have for decades, with a paramour--but instead of being thankful for coming into her own as a woman she actually blames feminism for the fact that her husband is a bottom just like her, so she's furious with him and feminists (who she claims is the reason "sensitive" guys like him exist). I always think: feminism is about knowing yourself, knowing your mind, and living out your true purpose here, whatever that is; poor woman, she still doesn't think she deserves the kind of sex she really wants, thinks her submissiveness in the bedroom is "the way it should be" for all women, and damns anyone who doesn't see it that way and says so.

Now, these women are examples of women having some lingering misconceptions about feminism, while actually living more rich lives as a result of it. Maybe I'm wrong and they only read feminist writings that did seem anti-sex (huh? who wrote that?) but it does seem to me that the philosophy's pro-women having full lives. So someone's getting it wrong, and I don't think it's the millions of gals who've been encouraging us all to have the sex of our dreams.

[greenbean]

Oh, cha cha, I totally believe that feminism is pro-sex. I just said that because in light of recent debates about porn and certain sex styles not being feminist. I know one feminist blogger named Twisty in particular has had this to say about pro-sex feminists: "Masturbation - contrary to the giggly, incessant orgasm-chatter at BUST - isn’t the highest pinnacle of human achievement" and "you just might find yourself post-menopause wondering what all the fuss was about". I know she isnt saying shes anti-sex, I guess it just seems belittling.

My sister is totally unabashed in her sexuality, much more than me. For instance, she had a garage sale last year and actually had an "adults only" section, which was a shower curtain around a small table displaying porn vids and mags she grew bored of and a large bottle of lube that gave her a bad reaction.

[raisingirl]

I'm still a feminist but I'm counting down the days until my 'stache has grown in enough to get it ripped off with hot wax yet again.

[chachaheels]

Funny thing about those toys though: I was born in the early 60's and though we were surrounded the typical stereotypes for boys and girls, I know that both girls and boys were given dolls to play with, board games, "recreate a situation" toys (like a farmyard or a zoo with animal figures), and "pretend games" like cops and robbers to play with all the time. Granted, the dolls looked different for boys--GI Joe and the like (there was one whose muscles would pop--he was totally ripped!) and came with different accessories, but they were absolutely dolls. Girls' dolls, on the other hand, were babies, pretty girls, pretty porcelain faced dolls in lacy romantic clothes (someone bought me two of those when I was a child, my mom tells the story incessantly) and Barbies, of course. Funny that as long as the dollies were macho enough for boys, no one complained about them making "sissies" out of their sons.

Okay: here's one misperception that just mystifies me: the idea that feminists don't like sex or are not "pro-sex". Ladies, trust me on this one: if it weren't for feminists, all of us would still be walking around believing we didn't own our vaginas, and wondering how to look interested when closing our eyes and thinking of England. Not a single one of us would have the sex lives we enjoy right now if it weren't for feminists. So let's stop letting people tell us this lie, please.

[llamas]

*peek*
I love the discussion of toys and gender! I remember playing with a fairly balanced mix of toys when I was a kid; I liked Barbies and My Little Pony, sure, but also had trucks, Star Wars toys, and a really badass red remote-controlled Corvette. My parents didn't try to influence me one way or another, which is cool. The extremely girly girls next door thought I was slightly odd, though!

My friends and I had a similar discussion recently, and they really got a kick out of the fact that I had no interest whatsoever in baby dolls besides using a peeing one as a watergun, and that my Ken doll left Barbie for Jem. (I've grown up to be an enthusiastically childfree rocker girl. )

Incidentally, I heart Mary Daly...I think I mentioned in Celebrity Encounters a while ago that I talked to her on the phone back when I worked for Women's Studies in college.

[greenbean]

Its funny to hear about the gender issues regarding toys! I grew up in post-2nd wave feminism SF bay area, and all my playmates were encouraged to play with whatever they wanted. I remember my best friend when I was 5 was a boy, and he always wanted to play 'house' with cabbage patch dolls as our babies. I HATED cabbage patch and always insisted we play cowboys and indians outside. He would cry, so I stopped hanging out with him

I also remember in first grade being in a carpool with a little girl who had a boy haircut and was always clutching a GI Joe. One boy in the car made fun of her and the mom who was driving had to pull over and scold him. My favorite color was blue too, and my sister waaay into pink and purple. I cant remember if I knew there were gender associations with those colors. All I knew was that ballet and dolls and dresses made me go *blech*.

I think when I was a teenager I realized that there were certain colors/activities/dress that was assigned to girls, and I thought my sister was a sheep for falling for it...but now she is a straight-up feminist (albeit an extremely pro-sex one) and I realize that ones childhood girlieness doesnt necessarily determine ones political and social views in the future.

[chachaheels]

I think you're dead right about the pink and purple craziness. I don't remember such a tiny palette to choose from when I was a kid: my tricycles were all red, and my first souped up 3 speed bike was a metallic lime green (but you could find almost any colour--orange was really popular I remember). No danglies hanging from the handle bars either: but I wasn't averse to inserting a hockey card in the spokes held by a clothespin so that the wheels made imposing clicking noises. As did so many other girls.

Mary Daly: she's the one who wrote about the Dead Sea Scrolls, wasn't she--about how the writing revealed female-authored scriptures and how the church selectively ignored this? I've read her, and really like her.

[wombat]

Oh! cha cha!
Bravo!

or Brava?????

One of the best writers in the English language is Mary Daly. I've even suggested her books to various male singer/lyricists I've encountered (Boston's a pretty "rock" city).

You might not agree with everything she says, but she is stunning. Huge ideas and great pleasure and ability with language, with no prissiness.

In real life, she fits the stereotype of the large and in-charge unkempt lesbian with her crew of sycophants, but, I gotta admire her books and the fact that she is a professor (or was? retired?) at a Jesuit university.

Like Adrienne Rich, she did her time as an obedient little nerd girl, got ensconced in the male academic power firmament, and then **kapow!!**

____

Also, I was in elementary school in the 1960s, me and my sisters and girl friends had both cars and trucks as well as dolls -- and the boy friend next door could play GI Joe with my Barbies or we would play in the sand with his Tonka trucks. This was pre- "Free to Be You and Me" and all of the mothers in the neighborhood stayed home. We still had to wear dresses to school, too. I think school is where that sex role stuff gets really imposed.

Another note: We didn't used to have every single little girls bicycle be pink and purple with dolly and horses heads on it. Me and my sister had blue ones because that was our favorite color.

Pink and purple only. Foo!!

[chachaheels]

When I was a kid, I clearly remember sex-role stereotyping was everywhere, in a way that we don't see quite so blatantly now. There were ad campaigns for toys that simply couldn't be shown today (because now the sexism is much more subtle). I remember print, TV, and clothing ads that said, for example, "Tonka Toys for Boys". Tonka toys, if they're not familiar to you, are little toy trucks, bulldozers, and construction equipment. Toys for girls, on the other hand, were always dolls doing housework, like Suzie Homemaker. They'd come with their own ironing boards and cooking pots, and the slogans were never shy about pressing home the expected distinctions. I never really knew any girls who "bought in" to those divisions (and I do recall that lots of little boys wanted to play with little girls' EasyBake Ovens...), but once in a while someone's parents would get a little nervous that their son was spending too much time with the girls, and the issue would rear its ugly head to us all.

But Feminism was enjoying a lot of media attention then too--so that was what "floated around" us. I think feminism certainly has to be understood in its very long historical context, and it's language, which has largely been misappropriated and misrepresented by the media, should be understood clearly before women can benefit from it. The word "equal", for example, was meant to apply to rights under law--specifically, if men were considered persons, women should equally be considered persons (and not just chattel). I think it's a misrepresentation of feminism to believe that feminists are all about making women "equal" to men, because of course we are extremely different from men. But treatment in law, access to rights and to self-determination...that is still quite unequal. And even in that goal, much of the feminism I've read has been about acknowledging the differences between men and women and valuing those differences fairly.

The misappropriation and misrepresentation of that word has really cost us--for example, we're all still "dazzled" by the idea of "equal pay for equal work", when the real issue is that our lives and work are not valued equitably, and work that women do that is "worth" as much or more than work that men do (to a corporation or a community) is simply not valued equally, monetarily or otherwise (most of it, in fact, is completely unpaid). So we're all stuck on the nickels and dimes difference, as we fail to notice that even though we're doing the same jobs as men, the jobs themselves still become devalued as soon as women take them, and so much of the work that women do is unpaid no matter what paying jobs they also hold (and should rightly be counted as part of the valued work produced in any group--but it isn't). The language has kind of bamboozled us, politically, simply because I think feminists who are actually doing the work of enriching the philosophy, as well as the women physically trying to make changes in the real world, aren't being read or heard directly. Unless we seek them out and read them or witness and take part in what they're producing or creating, they seriously have no "real" voice of their own in our culture. They continue to be defined by a very masculinist media and society.

That's why so many young women are being told that feminists are a specific stereotype, one that they should consider ridiculous or hateful--yet they're surrounded by feminists who are academically some of the most gifted minds ever known to exist in Western civilisation, as well as feminists who are spearheading some of the most phenomenal social changes which have ever taken place in the world's history.

I don't want to discount the academic reality of feminism because I think we too easily dismiss it as a philosophy, when in reality it is the most singularly comprehensive, interdisciplinary analysis ever put together by human beings in our intellectual history (seriously: what other philosophy analyses so much of human interaction--economics, politics, language, social science, theology, all the arts and literature, all the sciences, medicine, you name it) besides feminism? None which ever came before feminism, that's for sure; and certainly nothing which ever came "after" feminism either. It's also one of the most diverse philosophical fields, in terms of perspective, ever. That's a huge contribution from women, and it shouldn't be dismissed; though I also do agree that most "feminism" is a blood sweat and tears reality that women create in the hope of making changes which benefit everyone.

[anna k]

I was Lisa Simpson as a kid. Brainy, socially inept, obsessed with cultural history and music, tried to imitate slacker kids' talk to befriend them, and even called a teen-idol 900 number.

I got my facts on feminism from the Angry Women book, Bikini Kill, and various zines.

[wombat]

Yeah, but I hate that stereotype you see in Scooby Doo and in a lot of other cartoons: that the smart girl is of course less attractive, and the attractive girl is of course less smart.

Can't have too much good stuff, right?

Boo.

[crazyoldcatlady]

i remember when i was 9-10ish, i had a baby sitter who was "playing barbies" with me. my barbie was always a feminist, and she had a hott shit white, pimped out tuxedo. i said i wanted to wear a tuxedo when i got old enough to go to prom, and would draw fashion mockups. my mom, who is a feminist but won't use that word, though it was a great idea. so i shared that idea with the babysitter who promtply told me, "you don't want to wear a tux, everyone will think you're a lesbian."

the convo in here just reminded me of that story, somthing i haven't thought about in years.

in the same vein, i realize that i always identified with the brainer girls, ie lisa, jessie spano over kelly kapowski, velma over daphne....

[ginger_kitty]

*delurks*

Wombat, My older brother used to always tease me in my early teenage feminist years. I would wear Girls Rule t-shirts, so he would crack tons of jokes about being a lesbian. I just don't see how that would detour andyone from being a feminist??

I wrote this lenghthy blog today about exactly what is being discussed here. A girl at work asked me what is a feminist. And I explained my views about feminism to her, but I told her it's different for everyone. We don't all think exactly the same or agree on all issues though, so I found it terrible difficult to explain. Basically I came to the realization that neaty defining a feminist is like attempting to explain a religon. We share a common bond and care about what happens to each other, but beyond that I openly support everyone to be as individual as possible with thier personal beliefs.

I hope this is coherent, I tend to ramble....

[wombat]

I'm still a feminist, even though I had bad experiences with the "you must be big or lesbian" types as well.

I relate a lot to greenbean's story as well, except I *was* Lisa Simpson -- heh heh!! Love her. I was more into school than into sports. But we had a gang of tough, tomboyish neighborhood girls, so we biked all over the place and hacked new trails in the woods and went swimming and stuff. Only occasionally could I be good enough at the sports to please them.

The whole message I got growing up is that males in their teens and twenties are the coolest thing ever, and they do everything. It seemed like everyone was striving for their approval, girls my age, teenage girls, media, even parents and teachers seemed to be standing back in awe of them.

Feminism was and is so attractive, and so important to me, because Feminism says that girls can be the cool ones.

Be in bands, be athletic, be in good jobs, learn how to use a chainsaw, have all kinds of sex -- whatever you want.

I think when people are in groups organized around a specifically political goal, like changing social legislation or changing policies at a school or a company, they get a lot more narrow-minded about their functioning. I think it's just because it is a large task, and there are many unpleasant chores that one has to force oneself to do, and you have to be aware of your image, politically speaking.

I didn't start wearing skirts and make-up again until many years after my college feminist org experience. Punk rock happened. Women like Patti Smith and the Slits as well as the Bangles and Deborah Harry -- just an all-around great time for differing images of strong women.

No matter what the complaints and disputes and difficulties, try to imagine living in the 1960s, when they still split job recruiting ads into Male and Female sections in the newspaper. When abortion was illegal and women risked their lives to get it -- and ended up in the hospital, mutilated, sometimes.

Feminism is always going to be worthwhile, however we define it.

[sybarite]

While you can learn feminist theory in an academic setting, in my experience it's not the best place to see it in practice. Depending on where you are, and despite anti-discrimination legislation, the glass ceiling still exists and women are expected to do more organisational and administrative tasks, for starters.

I personally learned more about day to day feminism working in restaurants and bars and more recently in my cohabiting relationship. Again, there are different kinds of feminism, and some of them contradict each other. I do agree though that despite ongoing discrimination the academy is not the coalface.

[dusty]

I'm not too educated on gender studies, but I think that saying women are different from men and have their own contribution is to negate the continuum of gender and skills and behaviour and everyone's right to be wherever they are on that continuum. I think that saying women are different is to stereotype them. To me feminism is about rights and choices.

To me also, feminism isn't about going around 'teaching' men and other women, its about listening to other people, about where are they on that continuum, what their experience is and what they need to function equitably in our society.

I am 45 years old, I don't want to teach my partner. Fortunately, I don't have to.

I believe it is a mistake to think that feminism is about academia. Feminism is about the labour movement, about activism in general. Look at Doodle, who has been living and breathing women's rights for years. Look at Tes.

[nickclick]

men and women and the way that they are treated, professionally, personally, intellectually and emotionally, should not be equal, but equitable.

tesao, that's exactly what i wanted to say. obviously women have different requirements from something like health care, for example, but it will be equitable when our health needs are studied, and respected.

[tesao]

hi, lapis! i agree with you, men and women are not equal. women can give birth to children. that is a huge difference right there. there are others, but i don't think that it is necessary to write a laundry list of the ways in which there are diffrences. i don't like to generalize, because there are always exceptions.

[/color]

i've always thought that it was more a question of equitability than equality.



[color="#6600cc"]men and women and the way that they are treated, professionally, personally, intellectually and emotionally, should not be equal, but equitable.

[lapis]

OK. I feel scared to write this (cause I don't want to step on toes or piss anyone off) but...I don't think men and women are equal. To generalize (because some women have more in common with men and vice versa), there are physical and emotional differences--and energetic ones, perhaps. I do think that men and women should be treated equally professionally, education-wise, legally, etc. basically in all aspects of society--that we should be given the same rights and opportunities and rewards. And that, historically, equal treatment has not been the case. At the sme time, it might serve societies to learn about the differences and incorporate them so we can have more models for communication and expression and politics. How can women have a presence if we don't acknowledge their special ways of contributing? How can we change a system if we don't see how it's been marked and gendered?

So, to me, feminism is about empowering women. It's about raising consciousness (that second wave term though it predates me). And it's about sharing information to give women the resources to advocate for themselves and each other in all the places necessary. This might mean sharing health information so we can be armed in doctors' offices and fight for proper care, or rereading history for women's experiences, or crafting literature that details a woman's landscape of life more aptly. And it might mean doing things for social justice. It might mean helping a friend get out of a bad relationship or helping her find a dress that really rocks. Or learning something new that turns me on. That's why this lounge drew me in--because it is an amazing resource for information and people--that's rare and really cool!

In college, feminism seemed really clear to me: date teachable boys (or powerful women), read feminist texts, align with others who are also vying for presence and empowerment who didn't grow up with certain inherent privileges, shave and do "girly" things only if I could justify it to myself as my choice. But out of college it has gotten fuzzier. I asked an older friend of mine who had been a part of te consciousnes-raising thing--how are you still feminist? And she blanked out answer-wise. Action-wise she got into environmentalism--and that seems like it could be pretty feminist, too--in terms of aligning with those who need advocacy--the earth certainly does! And she works on literacy. Seems like maybe feminism can take on many more forms now, but that makes doing it more challenging.