[stargazer]

Will she do something even more drastic to keep the media attention? Is Munchausen's by proxy in these kid's futures? I mean, the lady is on hiatus from getting her MASTERS in PSYCHOLOGY for fuck's sake

mama and i were talking about her use of her children to get attention for herself already. i think it will be interesting to see how she handles her children growing up and moving out of the house. oh, and about the masters in psychology thing...um, would you want to go to her as a therapist?

ETA cause I forgot why i came in here: Not to change the subject, this is pretty pricelss: Bristol Palin says abstinence only sex education is "unrealistic". Gotta give Bristol this, she's wily!

*yawn* stupidity is really genetic, huh. bristol doesn't understand the meaning of sex education in the school system.

[culturehandy]

On the episode of The Simpsons, I thought the same thing. And whenever the media does yet another story on multiple births, it makes me think of it.

As for the theme park type thing, that sort of freak show was done with the Dionne Quintuplets.

[Persiflager]

Sorry auralpoison, I didn't mean that as a criticism of your post. I just wanted to flag up the Meadows controversy for everyone's awareness as it made me so cross - he 'diagnosed' one of the women by watching her on TV, for christ's sake.
And, given how difficult it was for them to clear their names, it seems likely that their are others out there who were wrongly imprisoned.

Apologies again if I came across as snarky!

[auralpoison]

I was being facetious, hence I used the phrase "equally bizarre" & also prefaced it with a comparison to a cartoon television show. I wasn't saying that I felt Munchausen's by proxy was legitimate/illegitimate. It was a comment on the things somebody with a partial psych degree (Or cable tv or the web.) could possibly do to prolong their time in front of the cameras, whether it's a legit disorder or not.

[Persiflager]

OT: Sir Roy Meadow was the person who identified munchausen's by proxy, and has since been struck off for wrongly diagnosing it in at least 2 cases of child death (the trials of Angela Cannings and Sally Clark). In each case his mis-leading evidence led to the women originally being found guilty and sent to prison.

There is now considerable doubt as to whether or not the syndrome exists - even if it does, it is likely to be rarer than currently thought.

Back to topic.....

[auralpoison]

The McCaugheys (evangelicals) had one daughter before having the septuplets in one swoop (Two of the seven have cerebral palsy.), dunno if they lived in a trailer or not. I do know that they received a 5500sqft home, a mondo van, free diapers for the first few years, free nanny services, etc, etc, etc. The state of Iowa has even graciously offered to pay all seven's college tuition (I'm assuming a state school.) when they reach college age. (What about the first born? Is she gonna pay her own way through DeVry or ITTTech working at Applebees?)

The one good thing I can say for those people is that they've worked to keep their kids out of the limelight unlike the Duggars, John & Kate, etc. I think they do a yearly Q&A with LHJ or something, but that's about it.

I'm sure somebody's mentioned it, but I keep thinking of the episode of the Simpsons where Apu & Manjula have octuplets & the PT Barnum-like character wants to build a theme park around them & display them as freaks. How long is it gonna take before something equally bizarre happens to this new batch? Is some other uber mommy gonna get implanted with ten & we'll forget all about the Suleman (Who knows what last name they'll have, she has like, eight DIFFERENT aliases: Nadya Suleman, Natalie Denise Suleman, Nadya Suleman-Gutierrez, Natalie Suleman-Gutierrez, Nadya Denise Doud, Natalie Denise Doud, Nadya Soloman, Nathalie Soloman.) kids? Will she do something even more drastic to keep the media attention? Is Munchausen's by proxy in these kids' futures? I mean, the lady is on hiatus from getting her MASTERS in PSYCHOLOGY for fuck's sake

ETA cause I forgot why I came in here: Not to change the subject, this is pretty pricelss: Bristol Palin says abstinence only sex education is "unrealistic". Gotta give Bristol this, she's wily!

[chachaheels]

Well, I'm mistaken on the Duggars. I am not mistaken, though, in remembering a family of Christian trailer park dwellers who already had a number of children and then went out and had a miracle birth of record setting numbers of children, which put them and their Fertility Specialist Team on the map and on the Oprah show, where every corporate sponsor ready to cash in on the "good Christian family" vibe "donated" money to their miracle babies (of course, everyone forgot about the already existing babies in the family, who I'm sure have spent their lives as an afterthought ever since).

To me it's telling how well America loved this first family, and now despises this mother of eight for doing exactly the same thing.

But that whole Quiverful movement and the Duggars' view on using BCP is, um, extraordinary.

[vixen_within]

...
I can't imagine being pregnant for nine months, let alone nearly twenty years.

I know right. To me being with child would be almost like being possessed..by a beautiful magical creature of gawd though of course.

[auralpoison]

The Duggars are involved in the Quiverful movement.

Duggar basics: The first four years of their marriage, she was on the pill. In 1984, they decided to have their first child, after that she went back on the pill. Somehow, the BC failed, she got pregnant & she miscarried. They went to a Christian doctor, read the BC fine print that said she could possibly get pregnant & that she could possibly miscarry. They felt that their selfish actions had essentially caused them to murder their own child. They decided to put things in the hands of God & that He would see fit when they conceived & when they didn't.

And they only gave birth to two sets of twins, the rest of them were single births. Basically Michelle Duggar has been knocked up the old fashioned way for the majority of her adult life.

I can't imagine being pregnant for nine months, let alone nearly twenty years.

[girlygirlgag]

cha cha, the Duggan's are the large xtian family in some cult called "bountiful womb" or something. Maybe you're thinking of the McCaugheys.

dj-biz monkey, testing on African women is par for course, sex workers too (or, super bonus, African sex workers) It's not illegal, they do it because they can. They come to international conferences and boast about it.

They're the DUGGARS, not Duggans, so who knows.

[vixen_within]

Another good question is whether the participants are insured for life long side effects.

By the way sex workers are more likely than most women to use condoms and to negotiate safer sex. It's not the sex work that's the problem it's the unsafe drug use and that includes non-sex workering people.

[jsmith]

I am not exactly sure how I feel about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90209110637.htm

I just don't see how this kind of trial could be legal. It sounds like exploitation to me.

I don't like the sound of it, either. Their experimental design seems flawed - too many variables.
As far as it being exploitation... I don't know. I imagine they recruited women who were already sexually active, and were in a high-risk group, anyway. If they were taking women and convincing them to purposely engage in un-safe sex, that would definitely be unethical. But a high percentage used condoms (one of those other variables that, if they wanted to be accurate, they should have set as a control. But it would definitely be unethical to tell them NOT to use condoms, just to see if this gel would protect them). I have to chew on this one more to decide what I think of that particular angle..

[dj-bizmonkey]

i knew that drug companies had been exploiting African populations for a looooong time, i guess i was unclear on who they had recruited who would be willing to participate in such a trial. but if they were using sex workers, that makes more sense, i suppose. still, this seems like reckless endangerment and i am still unclear as to which part of the clinical trial took place in the USA.

[vixen_within]

cha cha, the Duggan's are the large xtian family in some cult called "bountiful womb" or something. Maybe you're thinking of the McCaugheys.

dj-biz monkey, testing on African women is par for course, sex workers too (or, super bonus, African sex workers) It's not illegal, they do it because they can. They come to international conferences and boast about it.

[dj-bizmonkey]

I am not exactly sure how I feel about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90209110637.htm

I just don't see how this kind of trial could be legal. It sounds like exploitation to me.

[chachaheels]

CH, my point is that I'm not so sure Suleman made this decision completely on her own. I'm saying there were others with vested interests who very likely promoted the idea to her as something that would be mutually beneficial. I think it's quite likely her fertility specialists saw a way of putting themselves "on the map" in the most competitive and lucrative medical field in the world--they'd be the first to help a woman conceive of 8 babies, not just seven, or six, or five (so long ago outdated!). And everyone remembers how Oprah made the septuplet family rich--bet they dangled that carrot in front of her. That's not an outrageous consideration, you know: lots of women with no other financial options sell off their fertility in exchange for large sums of money. There wouldn't be such a market for surrogate mothers or ova, otherwise. Now, if she did make this "trade off", of course the doctors wouldn't be speaking about it (doctor/patient confidentiality) and they'd be above scrutiny. Suleman would be the one who'd be left to come up with explanations to the Gossip industry.

(Correct me if I'm wrong: were the Duggans not the nice Christian family of 5 living in a trailer--2 parents and 3 children in a trailer) who had "miracle" septuplets and were then given hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of "gifts" from big corporations, including "funds" for each of the seven children's extended education? Do I have the wrong family in mind? Because I remember the miracle septuplets--and there is No Way the parents of these babies had money for anything. And also, at the time, Mr. septuplets was unemployed. I can understand how all those "donations" can translate into large financial investments and holdings. It's what I'd do with any large gift of money I'd get, hell).

As for welfare payments--aren't people aware of how little is actually paid to recipients on welfare? Jesus. It's impossible for someone to pay their rent on welfare, let alone buy food, pay for utilities, and feed other mouths. Even if you get extra for each child. Unless you've got someone close to you doing a heck of a lot of shopping and working for you, I don't see how anyone could do it. Personally, I don't care about the $600 bucks or so some person needs from my taxes--it's the billions and trillions of dollars of our taxes used for corporate welfare that really sucks money away from you and me, not the poor. Suleman could buy a few properties of her own with just one banking weasel's bonus money, or just one month of his salary, and she and her 14 kids and parents would live very well for the rest of their days on that one bailout payment we've made from our taxes alone, let alone all the tax money we contribute that's used to subsidize the entire industry. Isn't this obvious?

[girltrouble]

His argument's edge is dulled somewhat by the promise that he will rethink his decision to clone himself if provided with beer.

his argument is dulled by it's stupidity.

i'm sorry, this idea that somehow if a white male did it, the government would be more harsh is moronic. just a cursory glance at the banking crisis will tell you that. not only did they screw up things world wide but they get a million dollar bonus to boot.
*sniff*
poor little white man.
*sniff*

[NotNadya]

Perhaps a new twist:

A man has threatened to clone himself 14 times and raise his clones on welfare if the mother of octuplets, Nadya Suleman, realizes her dream of fame and fortune through poor family planning decisions.

"I feel like I'm paying for everybody's kids. Women do this sort of crap all the time and I think if a man did it, welfare would wind up being better regulated ", states Gerard "Big Red" White.

His argument's edge is dulled somewhat by the promise that he will rethink his decision to clone himself if provided with beer.

Link: Digg

[girlygirlgag]

FYI, the Duggars own several commercial properties and developments.

They support themselves and always have financially. They depended on volunteers to help with laundry, etc, but never financially. they don't need any outside help anymore, because there are a billion of them.

Not that I like them, but there is a big difference between them and Suleman.

[culturehandy]

And, yes, this is all distraction from the real mess that's out there and won't be fixed anytime soon. Lots of financiers and CEOs with bonuses from bail-out money and war criminals and doctors should be lining the prison cells, it seems to me, but they just keep getting more and more money, less and less media scrutiny.

ChaCha, this is what I'm so angry about. This woman chose to do this, but now that it's a lot of work, as with every other industry that's out there, is expecting people to help her event though it was her poor decision making. It's like the big three, for years, they never took the Japanese automakers seriously, even though the Japanese make a more superior vehicle, which lasts longer and is more fuel efficient. Well look waht happens, the big three, because of their failure for long term planning got bailed out by the tax payer.

The common theme here is that people are not stepping up to take responsibility for their own actions. whether is be this situation with Ms. Suleman or her doctor, to wall street or whatever industry. Then, by their poor planning they go begging to the government to say I can't fix my own mistake.