[faerietails2]

The free will/all-knowing thing has always been a major philosophical debate.

Because if god is all-knowing, then it does know what is going to happen in our lives and knows exactly what kind of choices we'll make, be it 5 minutes or 50 years from now. Which means we don't have free will...what's going to happen will happen. We can make a choice to shoot up heroin, or make a choice not to (what we deem to be our "free will"), but if god really is all-knowing, it already knows what choice we will make, so it's not exactly free will; it's a master plan.

Free will and being all-knowing can't both be coexisting qualities of god. If people truly have free will and truly are allowed to make their own choices in life, then that would mean that god is fallible and really isn't all-knowing, because there is no master plan and god doesn't know what the outcome of our choices will be. But if god does know how everything will turn out, then that means we don't have free will, because everything has been foretold.

So then that brings up the problem of "if god is really all-knowing and all-loving, why does it let disasters occur? (Furthermore, why would it damn non-believers to hell, since that's decidedly vengeful and not all-loving?)" Why would an all-loving, caring god allow such distruction?

(i apologize if what i wrote is completely confusing. i have a degree in philosophy that has sat completely unused for about 3 years now, so all the god arguments are coming back to me in the form of "uhhhh...what was that guy's name again??" *hangs head*)

[bunnyb]

Um, no, actually suggests that we were so totally and completely and nowhere near on the same page at all and undoubtedly never will be.

Why would He invest us with free will yet only allow us to do nice things? Does that not defeat the purpose of free will or am I the one who is being dense? Since when did God become a dictator? Thou Shalt Do As I Say, period, and not earn your right behind the pearly gates but get there by default.
Also, let's think about what pixie said: are other forces are at work here? Where do we all stand on Good vs. Evil? Does God have the monopoly on it all?

Minx, I think you are missing the ultimate point of prayer: it is an act of communing with a higher being and not necessarily an act of supplication. Yes, the act of prayer can be used as a humble request of God to intervene but do I believe that He will? Um, no, and that would make the act futile, in that respect. However, in my opinion, prayers offered up (and answered?) are not ones asking for God to prevent atrocities -meted out by the darkness of man- but for God to grant serenity, courage and wisdom to the supplicant (it's that free will thing again) to intervene/help or to accept said atrocities.

eta: I don't pray but I don't think we should underestimate the amount of comfort that it provides to some, whether their prayers are answered or not. I view prayer as something that provides peace to others; something that is meditative and personal and something that could be compared to therapy - or maybe that should be the act of confession? I know it's sacred anyway because it gives some hope and who are we to quash another's hopes? Yes, we may not understand the concept and wouldn't do it ourselves but it is their spiritual release.

[minx]

"Um, no" isn't exactly a qualifier that does much good in this discussion. "Um no" presupposes that we are even on the same page, which we are not.

Why would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent god give humans free will knowing some of us would be such scheissters? The idea of "loving freely" this Thingie that would let free will reign atrocities on his "free loving" followers is insane...to me. Seriously. And where does prayer come into all of this? If he is an intervening god, then why doesn't he (I mean, it's so random to me that it seems as if there is none)? I'm not trying to be dense.

How do you believers out there reconcile these things?

[pixiedust]

I agree that all knowing and all powerful doesn't directly correlate with giving us our free will. He did know we were screw things up when we gave us free will..see revelations, but he did it anyway because he wants us to love him of our own free will and not be and army of puppets.

As for Natural disasters and other bad things happening. I don't believe God causes any of them to happen, but he does sometimes allow them to happen. Probably to remind us that we still need him when we start getting too big for our britches! There are also other forces at work too. There is the evil forces. And some people chose to let Satan use them rather than God.

I like what Sprinkles said about astrology. I too read my horoscope from tiem to time, not because I really believe it's going to happen, but because it's fun in a cheesy fortune cookie type of way. The 3 men I have had the most serious relationships of my life with are all the same astrological sign, and couldn't be any more different from each other. I also rarely fit into what I've read a Virgo is like.

[bunnyb]

Um, no, an all-powerful, omniscient God has nothing to do with God investing us with free will (apart from the obvious that he has to be all-powerful to do that).
I have more of an issue with God allowing natural disasters that the horrors brought forth through human agency.

[minx]

But then that negates the notion of an all-loving, all-knowing god. An all-knowing god would have accounted for humans being retarded in that respect, so why would be put people through that? It seems The Invisible Thingie in the Sky is either fallible, or so hands off that prayer is an exercise in futility.

[SpRiNkLeS]

Wahoo!!!!!!!!! Yes, the coolness factor has totally been “broughten!” back to this thread. I hope I can continue? I SO don’t wanna walk away now! I just finished reading all the posts and I think the main thing here is that our words are sometimes being misinterpreted or just not understood? I must apologize to Minx (I wrote that in bold just in case you decided to ignore my post ) , I am sorry I called you out. I had assumed people were talking about me but instead the thoughts were meant to be just a main generalization. Where I come from girls call each other out, if you don’t actually call the girl out you are considered a wuss and pathetic, it was quite embarrassing really if we didn’t “represent”. Heh, yes I know it’s lame but sometimes it’s hard to reprogram my thoughts or actions from the way I was raised in my old neighborhood. I could totally give a transcript example of a typical exchange and you’d all be like……….whaaaaa? Huh? Is that even a language?!!

DJ-Bizmonkey: So your post from March 29, especially the second to the last paragraph, made me finally (sorta, kinda) realize where yours and Minx’s frustrations with religious views might come from. I never really saw it from your point of view because of course I have never felt that way, but now, I mean especially knowing you study evolutionary biology in school, well I think I am starting to maybe (kinda, sorta) understand where you are coming from. Oh and I agree with Faerietails2 regarding the grocery lady who spit at you. What a biatch!!!!! Props to you for not spitting back.

RoseViolet: Thankyou for posting that link which provides a great article for what feminism really is. I don’t think there is an American woman alive who DOESN’T “look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes”. I was raised by a single mom so this view was always a bit more favorited but today I finally have a great, although of course always long distance, relationship with my dad (I got over the past, or maybe I like to think so?) whose views on feminism are that women think they are better and are “man-haters”, with an image of Jane Fonda, so the label “feminist” is something I just avoided, never quite understanding. I was always like, “I am who I am, no labels”. Of course last year I became born-again so of course I do tend to labelize now, starting with labeling myself as a “born-again Christian”. I guess it’s a humanistic fault however with all our different views it would almost be impossible NOT to label. So anyway thanks for the link! It helped clear my confusion, I almost wish every guy (along with any gals who were confused like me) could read that as a mandatory reading in history class….that is also where my confusion of the word “feminist” started.

Pixiedust: Yay! Thankyou!!! So you totally said everything that I MEANT but obviously didn’t say correctly, ESPECIALLY regarding Paul’s epistles. “I also don't see it as a directive to last through the ages. I believe he was answering some questions that they were facing in the culture and times that they lived in.” I now realized that my interpretation made me sound like I thought we were living in the biblical ages! I’m in my early twenties and I STILL seem to talk outta my arse sometimes. I can only hope with time I can learn to correctly explain myself better.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so now I am caught up, done with that. Moving on, I personally don’t understand or agree with the concept of astrology and how the alignment of stars can predict our futures. HOWEVER I admit to reading up on my sign (Scorpio? Anyone know about this one?) sometimes just to see what is supposedly going to happen to me that day. I think it’s kinda fun! Plus I DO think actual scorpions are freakin cool, I mean they wait for their prey and then shoot venom. Those feisty little buggers are so cool!! To me reading astrology signs is just like eating a fortune cookie for the sole purpose of getting your fortune...as retarded as some that I've read turn out to be. Some can be so dissapointing! I actually didn’t know that just looking at Astrology was frowned upon though, I thought it was just ok as long as you understand that only God has mapped out our future. Not to sound like a kid but there’s nothing more awesome feeling than to go outside at night, look up at the stars and just feel so amazed. It’s so freakin beautiful up there!!!

So I thought Zeitgeist was just The Smashing Pumpkins’ last album? Heh, ok just kidding! I have never watched the Zeitgeist movie, I remember the anger I had over viewing the trailer. However that was last year. With every day I read God’s Word I get more patience, understanding, love, strength……………strength to be able to hear blasphemy babble yet not frickin blow up. Sometimes I wish I could be able to sit through one of those movies so I could be able to participate in discussions like these but hmmmm………….don’t know if I’m there yet? I’d have to watch the trailer again to see. I do remember the roaring applause in the movie's background during the trailer, which just completely made me sick to my stomach. Kind of like Kathy Griffin's acceptance speech back in '07, only WAY worse.

“How do you reconcile your belief in a loving god who lets humans do such atrocious things. That isn't a god that is loving...to me, that is cruel and merciless.” So this question might have been asked to someone else. BUT *raises up hand and waves it back and forth as if in an elementary classroom* Pick me! I wanna answer! Ok so my take on this is that God gives us freewill to either reject or accept Him. It is a choice, however I don’t understand why God gets blamed for the actions of humanity. We are not puppets, we are free to do what we want, but once you accept Him he is able to use you and this, at least for me, makes me feel so privileged! Think of it like this, like someone getting pissed off after gaining a few pounds from their Halloween candy, so therefore they blame the chocolate and candy, not themselves. Don’t they realize they are the ones that put the chocolate in their mouth and chewed and swallowed? It was their choice. Don’t blame the chocolate, ya’ll!

P.S. I totally would have used the reply button for some of those quotes but………um………..like ok I haven’t really figured out how to have more than one reply in a single post.

[neurotic.nelly]

oh yay! I love astrology and "truth-conspiracies". So, I've read that according to the ancient maya, not only do the planets, moon, and sun move individually through the 12 signs of the zodiac, but our entire solar system moves through a giant zodiac 'wheel'. So, as a whole our solar system has just moved into the age of Aquarius, which means that we should start seeing humanity as a whole move towards more humanitarianism (a major characteristic of Aquarius) and away from war. *let's hope so, I've got my fingers crossed*

"We are born at a given moment, in a given place, and like vintage years of wine, we have qualities of the year and of the season in which we are born" - Carl Gustav Jung

So, getting back to Zeitgeist and religions; I cannot ignore the connections made between ancient Egyptian and Pagan religions, as well as Babylon and Sumerian religions when compared with Christianity. So, essentially, people worldwide are worshiping the SUN and it's movements thru the seasons. This makes sense because the sun gives us energy, life, food, warmth, light etc. I once had a very long discussion with my boyfriend and his father (who is christian and lives in a small town). His father believes that modern (commercial) christianity is very pagan, idolizing things like gifts and/or the christmas tree, and more importantly, he purported that pagans were sun worshipers! How IRONIC! Then we discovered Zeitgeist, and according to Zeitgeist Jesus is a metaphor for the sun and christians worship this metaphor or symbol. His father tries to get the other christian townspeople to listen and feel him on this, but they just think he's crazy and alienate him around the christian holidays.

Here's a different rabbit hole to go down...

I've watched other "truth-sayers" such as Michael Tsarion. "2012: the future of mankind" is a good one, he didn't even know he was being filmed. You can go to google video and type in his name to see some of his lectures. He has studied ancient religious texts, such as the Old Testament, and compared them with other mythologies and ancient texts world wide, including those of Atlantis. Here's the interesting part, he contends that human civilization has not "evolved" as we've been taught by creationism or evolutionism. But, that ancient human civilizations were technologically, spiritually, and scientifically advanced, and lived in harmony with the earth. These particular ancient human civilizations lived during a time when our solar system resided in a golden era. (Civilizations go thru cycles: bronze, silver, and golden moving on a wheel, rising and falling. We are currently leaving the bronze age and moving into the silver). Ancient texts call it the Great Cycle, and on this great cycle civilizations experience periods of spiritual darkness and enlightenment. Before these ancient cultures perished they came into contact with "beings from the sky". Now, this is documented in the Old Testament in Genesis 1:26, there are (to name a few) ancient Tibetan texts, Mayan texts, and Egyptian, and Sumerian texts and drawings of these flying discs and "gods" from the sky. These "gods" were extraterrestial and they came here according to a text in the bible and mated with the daughters of the earth, and moreover, these "gods" from the sky used genetic manipulation to create man in his image. In order to create a slave race ruled by kings, priests and religions, and manipulated by governments worldwide.

Strange! But, it has been said that reality is stranger than fiction.

[dj-bizmonkey]

cool. thanks ladies. i think i'm mid-luteal because i am ultra sensitive this weekend. it's not just this thread being affected.

ok, so shifting gears a minute. what do you all of you (from all ends of the spiritual spectrum) think about astrology? i was baked and watching one of those super cheesy history channel things with leonard nimoy, ancient mysteries or something, all about astrology from the babyonians to modern times. i know that it is frowned upon by some christian denominations......but religious people have used astrology since its inception.

it made me think about the first part of that leftist, conspiracy-theory internet movie, 'zeitgeist.' has anyone seen this? it is all about astrology and its connection to world religions. i absolutely love the movie though i don't buy everything in it part a parcel. i think a guilty pleasure of mine must be being secretly paranoid.

for me, even though i find it hard to believe that the alignment of stars might somehow have an effect on your fate or personality, it's one of these things that i think its fun to believe in a little.

[nickclick]

As per the comment that people are sick of atheists assuming a lack of intelligence in people "of faith"...well, I know lots of folks who are spiritual, and it's a personal thing and they fight for equality and social justice. The are quite intelligent. This is not to say that I don't question their judgment about something like the bible. I personally believe that too much stock has been given to a tome written by men, and not one account of Jesus until nearly 70 years after his death, with several gnostic gospels left out. It's troubling to me. It's like a phantasmagoric game of Telephone to me. I don't think that having this opinion makes me a "hater" when it comes to religion. I want people to think, and I don't think that "faith" gives someone a ticket to not think about the very fundamentals of their belief systems.

minx, i agree. i don't think you, me, or anyone else around here is saying that non-atheists in general or on this board are unintelligent or non-thinkers. my opinions are against organized religion and not its believers. and in my opinion, many of the institutions of organized religion are built on the goal that their believers will lose independent thought and only believe what they prescribe. i feel like there's some sort of spiritual olympics about who's the most right. and if a demonination were to change any of their tenets, they may have to admit they are not the best one, so they discourage discourse. so, i'm not saying the actual believers don't think or have questions, but that it's not encouraged nor fully explored.

but i'm obviously here to learn something, so please, no dropouts!

[minx]

I haven't been around because I received the blue screen of death on both of my PCs at home. Totally unfortunate. I've been on these boards for nearly nine years, and would certainly hope that enough people on here would be open-minded enough to get what I'm trying to say.

My comments are being taken out of context, however I can say that I'm glad it has sparked conversation.

My post had more to do with speaking a bit hypothetically and a bit more on my more radical side of atheism. Which is not to say that I am not tolerant. I am...for as much as I can be. Organized religion is not something that I am a fan of, and I suppose this is more than obvious. What did not come off as obviously as I had hoped (since I had spelled it out in black and white terms) was the fact that I had said that I didn't understand how someone could simultaneously claim to be a feminist and in the same turn claim to profess that Man is the head of Woman.

Now, I suppose that if one were touchy about this sort of thing, it would be emotionally compelling. I would hope that this compulsion wouldn't drive people to insert words and phrases that I did not use. I meant it as I said it, that by the very definition of feminism, how could one claim Man as naturally superior and use these boards, the boards of a feminist website which is about EQUALITY. That seems completely contradictory. And some people on these boards have uttered these words (and no, I am not including folks in the BDSM boards, because that's a TOTALLY different paradigm altogether).

I don't have it out for certain people here, but I am calling on you to answer how you reconcile this, because I sure as hell can't figure it out.

As per the comment that people are sick of atheists assuming a lack of intelligence in people "of faith"...well, I know lots of folks who are spiritual, and it's a personal thing and they fight for equality and social justice. The are quite intelligent. This is not to say that I don't question their judgment about something like the bible. I personally believe that too much stock has been given to a tome written by men, and not one account of Jesus until nearly 70 years after his death, with several gnostic gospels left out. It's troubling to me. It's like a phantasmagoric game of Telephone to me. I don't think that having this opinion makes me a "hater" when it comes to religion. I want people to think, and I don't think that "faith" gives someone a ticket to not think about the very fundamentals of their belief systems.

Oh, and Kittenb, I said creationism is a simplistic idea. That in combination with a lot of christian mythology is baffling to me. When explaining atheism, it becomes problematic because so many religious explanations for things are contradictory, or downright bizarre. How do you reconcile your belief in a loving god who lets humans do such atrocious things. That isn't a god that is loving...to me, that is cruel and merciless.

[kittenb]

It was this comment,

Believing (and it is a BELIEVE, not a THEORY or FACT) in creationism and an Invisible Thingie in the Sky playing puppet with us silly little animals is SIMPLISTIC. It requires nothing other than reading an interpretation of an ancient text written by someone who cannot be questioned, because you CAN'T question the word of the Invisible Thingie in the Sky--even if it was penned by a human intervenor when we all know damned good and well that humans are fallible, right? Just like we apparently weren't supposed to eat of the Tree of Knowledge...well, I'm sorry, but an Invisible Thingie in the Sky that prefers us ignorant and childish, yet gives us the ability to reason and use intelligence is the ultimate in contradictory bullshit. That's not mysterious and worthy of worship--that's a Sadistic and Irrational Invisible Thingie in the Sky.

that led me to the "aren't we too smart to have religious beliefs" feeling and reading it again, I still see no other way to interpret it. Having a religious belief isn't simple and it sure the hell isn't easy. Faced with the pain and suffering that I deal with as a 9-5 job, trust me there are many times I question if there is any point to all of this. But then I look at my boss, a radical feminist pagan whoes wife founded a church that is open to all Christians and I realize if she, who has worked with sexual and domestic violence for almost 20 years, can somehow study and question Christianity and dismantle all of the human bs that gets applied to to it, then I can keep my faith that there is something out there.

But that comment wasn't bizmonkey. It was from Minx who I notice hasn't been here in a few days so I'll let it go.

Sorry for the confusion, bizmonkey.

[pixiedust]

Yeah, I don't think it's all on Biz or even Minx. There's been several things said along the same lines in here lately. I am adressing them as one collective. Frankly, I know what I say is probably not going to change anyone's mind about religion. But I do enjoy discussing what
I believe and why in the way we have here. And I haven't really gotten my feelings hurt per se. Rather I got really angry at the 'christians can't be feminists' idea because as others have said that's really out of line.
To me, chosing to be christian because of my inner conscience is no different than anyone else on here choosing to be vegan. I'm not vegan, I love red meat way to much to ever think of giving it up, but hey, I respect people who have enough convictions in thier own beliefs to make a lifestyle choice like that.

[roseviolet]

Oh, I didn't mean to put anything on you, Biz. Not in the least. In fact, I've really enjoyed your posts in here. Notice that I did not mention the names of any Busties in my post. I was simply stating my opinion on the matter ... just like so many others.

[faerietails2]

okay everyone, *inhale*...

i don't think anyone ever implied that religious people couldn't be feminists or weren't welcome on this board, and i think a bit too much is being placed on biz here. actually, i believe it was minx who mentioned the subservience thing. but, i think that was totally misconstrued and not at all what she meant, either. i think we're all on the same side right now, we're just not on the same page about what was meant by things being said. yes?

...*exhale*

biz, re: that grocery lady...what a bitch! the worst i ever got for some of my old bumper stickers were dirty looks from drivers who passed by.

AP, that billboard is wack. it would be totally graffitied (sp? is that even a word?) if it went up in my neck of the woods.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i know, i know......

[bunnyb]

dj-biz, RELAX! I really think that most of the reactions here are not as a result of what you said. Yours is a legitimate question and could generate a good discussion - what does attract people of a more conservative viewpoint/background to a feminist/liberal board? However, to exclude somebody on the basis of their religion is way out of line. If I were, for instance, to tell somebody in the BDSM thread that they don't belong on a feminist website because they are subservient to males in a particular area of their lives I would be massacred so why should it be allowed in this thread? Just sayin'.

bunnyb ...I know you are one of the boss hogs here.

Hardly! I just like to think so

[auralpoison]

Wow. You forget about a thread . . .

This was kinda strange:

http://www.wftv.com/news/15735444/detail.html

If the sign in that story was on a billboard where I am, it'd be dismantled an hour after it went up. There are a lot of "Abortion stops a beating heart" signs around here, though. I guess if you pay for it you can put up whatever you like.

[dj-bizmonkey]

i don't ever recall saying that people of religious faith are stupid, unfeminist or don't deserve to be here. it seems to me that a few comments (albeit felt as offensive or hurtful ones) have been blown out of proportion. i feel like i have been trying very hard to be open-minded and inclusive. maybe it's just not enough and if that's the case, well, i'm sorry, i don't know what else to do other than shut up and leave this thread alone. i had this great post written this morning but it got eaten by the board.

sprinkles, i didn't address you directly, because i wasn't talking about you specifically. the women i had in mind were actually those poor daughters of fred phelps, who have been completely controlled and brainwashed. i mean, the westboro baptist church is really a cult, not even a legitimate religious organization. and also some ladies i've met from exodus ministries (through research, not personal involvement) who based their narrow views of how to re-feminize lesbians almost exclusively on scripture.

neurotic nelly, you asked a few questions. no, i do not think this board is just for atheists, and there appear to be all gradients of faith represented in the posts here from the uber-religious to the class 9 atheists (or whatever). my only hope would be that it continues on like this. i feel like i've been enlightened and enlivened to a degree. i would have to answer a resounding 'yes,' to your second question. i've definitely have experienced things that i could not explain. i have connected with something i felt to be bigger than all of us, bigger and more powerful than anything in the universe. it felt real. whether i constructed it in my mind or i was actually tapping into a universal lifeforce remains to be seen. however, i will not jump to the conclusion that whatever i experienced during intense meditation or overwhelming elation or sorrow was some how the embodiement of the judeo-islamo-christian god. simple as that. honestly, i know exactly what sprinkles is talking about when she says she can 'feel the presence.' the difference between she and i is that i do not subscribe to any organized religion and i do not accept any theist-god type explanation for its existence. whether it is fabricated or actual is of no consequence to me. the experience is still powerful and appears to be real. that's enough for me. all religion appears to be constructed by humans. there may be the occasional spark of the divine or what have you sprinkled in, but for the most part, not beyond anything in this dimension.

also, i too would find it laughable that we are all 'accidents.' nothing could be further from the truth. evolution by natural selection is anything but accidental, it is blind and deliberate at the same time. it explains 99% of the diversity of life and their patterns on this earth. nothing happens by chance, as you might think. as an athropologist i get this comment alot, 'i didn't come from a monkey!' and i like to say, 'well neither did i.' because this is, in fact a correct statement.

pixie, it was me that said i would be a 'red-letter christian,' if i were to adopt a faith. jesus got alot of things right. so did buddha, rabbi hillel, mohammed, gandhi and cesar chavez. and i'm with teseo on this one, i don't like the idea of some one being punished for all eternity simply because they were raised in istanbul instead of iowa or vice versa.

and i agree with both kittenb and roseviolet, it is not fair to paint all people in one kind of light. some of my best friends and the closest people to me are very religious (my parents are certainly, no question about it). as i had posted earlier, it's one of the thing that irritates me about dawkins (though i love many other things about him), this assumption that to be wrapt in a religion is synonomous with being some kind of slack-jawed bumpkin. it's that kind of exclustionist snobbery that keeps the united states divided. there is a heavy tide of anti-intellectualism in this country, but in order to counteract it, people must be respectful and not patronizing. i just keep thinking about the south park episode where richard dawkins takes over the world, cartman goes into the future and its different 'science' factions battling it out for world domination. they say 'hail science' instead of saying 'praise god.'

i know some people have gotten their feelings hurt, felt alienated etc. but that is bound to happen when you prod at people core beliefs and values. it's impossible NOT to take things personal, because, well, they are. i can sympathize with minx's frustration however. faith, scripture, is like an amulet that has been held up to 'ward me off' any time i would suggest something contradictory. i have been confronted, engaged and insulted over and over again because of what i study (primates, evolutionary biology), in airports, bars, restaraunts, waiting for the bus. and usually just springing from idle conversation like, 'oh what to you do, what do you study in school etc.' i have been yelled at, told i'm going to burn in hell, told i'm the harbinger of the devil and that i serve him and spit at. yes. a woman approached me in a grocery store parking lot because of my bumper sticker (it says, 'evolution is just a theory, kind of like gravity!). she gave me a stern talking to and when i failed to respond, because i was completely dumbfounded, she spit at my feet and told me 'people like you make me sick.' i KNOW that woman is in the minority. i think most people of faith are generous, loving and kindhearted people. new orleans is full of church kids on their alternative spring break, rebuilding houses in my neighborhood. faith inspire incredible acts in people. they warm my heart.

today some jehovahs witnesses brought their pamphlets to my door. i thanked them kindly for thinking of me. even though i might be mildly irritated by someone that tries to convert me to their faith, i know at least most of the time, they are doing it because they think it will help me. they are doing it because they care. well meaning, perhaps misguided. but i will not hide my beliefs from people. i will not be a closeted athiest. i broke a glass in the coffeeshop where i work today and a 'jesus,' slipped out of my mouth. force of habit. a man in line said, 'don't blame jesus, it's not his fault, he takes away blame and guilt.' i just smiled at him and cleaned up my mess. i should have told him, 'no in my world.' maybe it would have started an argument, but at least i would have been true to myself and as open about my own beliefs as he had been with me.

this is rambling......i think i'm done for a good long while.

[roseviolet]

I totally agree with you, Kitten. I am flummoxed by the suggestion that a person with a religious faith - Christian or otherwise - is automatically not a feminist. Granted, I know that there are some Christians who believe that a wife should be subserviant to her husband, but there are a hell of a lot of Christians out there who don't believe that. How many Christian marriages have you witnessed in which the wife mindlessly did whatever her husband told her to do? I certainly haven't seen any ... and I was brought up surrounded by Christians ( mostly from the Disciples of Christ denomination in case you're wondering).

We shouldn't paint a group of people with such a broad brush. This is especially true when we're talking about something as personal, varied, and complicated as our spiritual beliefs (or lack thereof).

There is an essay that has been posted on Bust numerous times that adequately defines feminism for me. Here's a link: "Yes, You Are" by Sarah D. Bunting. Basically, it comes down to this: "If you believe in, support, look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes, you are a feminist."

I identify myself as a Christian. A feminist, Democratic, pro-choice Christian. My best friend is Agnostic. Sometimes she gets so frustrated with some of the things that are done in the world in the name of Christianity. She says that it's good for her to be friends with me and our other Christian friends because it reminds her that not all Christians are bad. It keeps her from throwing out the baby with the bathwater.