[Queen Bull]

delurks-- what a great way to put it gt. kudos! -relurks

[karategrrl]

girltrouble, you MADE MY FRICKING DAY.

What an insightful post. You are abso-fucking lutely right with the "proofs" thing. Thanks so much for sharing that. That kind of behavior usually gets waaay under my skin like an itchy rash b/c it looks so freaking juvenile to me. (You can take my man, who under most circumstances, acts so intelligent, and put him in a group of male friends, and he seems to regress before my eyes--and even more quickly with alcohol. It always disgusted me b/c it's like, "WHO is that?? THAT is not the man I fell in love with!") I was unaware that it may be "proofs" at work. I remember once arguing with him about something blockheaded he'd done that hurt me. He said in his defense, "I'm a guy!" to which I responded "Yes, you are a guy--an intelligent guy, who is capable of behaving better than that." I have believed for some time now that men and women are conditioned differently, but "ritual becoming habitual"...yes...I see your point!

PS: "Ha, booblets." Cute.

[girltrouble]

can i say in men's defense, they really are clueless when it comes to breast size, bra size, or really anything to do with women's clothes. so if your guy doesn't know what clothes would fit you.... think about it being like a math equation, and if you don't know algebra, you can't solve the problem.

as for that Pavlovian saliva response to other women, most guys do it because they are taught that is acceptable. that "that's what men do." and just like most women were socialized around women, most guys were socialized around guys. with guys lots of there bad habits are what i like to call "proofs." proofs are a way for boys to prove they are masculine, that they aren't gay. with boys you have to think about some animal that needs to make a show about their virility to spook off their competitors. i've said it before, contrary to what most people think, masculinity is a very fragile thing-- it is constantly needing repair, and defending. at any moment guys masculinity can be called to the floor for a vote. i'd imagine the closest thing-- or the first thing that comes to my mind is mothers. they are perpetually having their motherhood into question. by ads, other people, friends, etc. the same with men. everything he does becomes a proof. think about it. he can look good, but not too good. he can have interests, but only certain interests. everything-- even who he dates, and the car he drives are proof to some degree. most guys are terrified of looking gay. i wouldn't even call it homophobia, because i think i fear of the feminine enters into it too, but they can't see how it's a sucker's game. so as boys they get in this habit of proving that masculinity, and eventually men-- and women-- think it's genetic wiring. i suppose to a degree it is. but only a small degree. ritual becomes habitual.

i don't know how you talk to your bf, but perhaps it would help to find some thing he finds painful when you do it, and equate the two. with guys you have to make it personal before they are gonna get it.

******

i just came in here because i've just started to really dig on my little boobies, or "booblets." for the longest time i've been day dreaming about getting a boob job, i know in my mind boobs equate to femininity, but i've started to look around and realise there is something really sexy about women who love their little boobs. i'm 6' tall so my boobs look smaller on me than they would on someone else, but they are b cups if i stuffed my bra. but i'm kind of going thru another one of my baby butch phases, and i'm really kind of diggin' on this kind of femininity. i love that they are so close to my body. i love the feeling of my gf/daddy's hands reaching around me and grabbing them. i love that they fit in the palm of my hand. i love that they are 'streamlined' that they aren't bombastic, but are subtle, and acquired taste. they are for the person who knows... it's kind of like, any boob can like big boobs. in america, that's a given. bigger is supposedly better, but that's easy, and don't get me wrong i get that aesthetic too. but to me this is like my city right now. all these beautiful buildings are being torn down for some ugly new condo box, but i figured out a long time ago, just cos something is new, doesn't mean it's better. there is so much to be said for the thing that doesn't just...jump out at you, heh. there is something to be said for the thing that you learn to love because you understand more about the art, y'know? the wine you love when you understand what your tasting, the book that is so f'ing deep because you see what the writer's doing, or, the analogy i can't resist because i love film, it's like preferring a director's lesser known movie, over the block buster, because it's the director at the height of his powers, and he's put together this tight little masterpiece that doesn't need all the bells and whistles, it's just this lean, streamlined, heat-seeking missile that hits it's target, with no false moves, no bullshit, and it's got so much depth, and complexity-- and nuance-- and most people don't know what to do with it cos it's not for the masses. no siree, this one is for the one who knows, who put the time in to understand the art, and not just go with the masses.

[karategrrl]

karategrrl: I also wanted to say that I'm proud of you for standing up to those guys with the explicit photos in their store. That took alot of courage to say something. Shame on them, especially the owner, for allowing such offensive and crude pictures for the public to see. I can't imagine a business allowing that and laughing it off as well.

Thanks. I am actually quite proud of myself, especially that I did what I did without thinking about it--I just reacted. In the past I would have just stewed. I'm not against erotica per se and I'm by no means a prude, but there is a time and place for everything, and in that setting it was inappropriate. Of course, it could be argued that what is "inappropriate" is a matter of opinion--I'm sure there are folks out there that think kiddie porn or raping small animals is appropriate.

[karategrrl]

Hmm. I think you're forgetting that many fat people are a product of genetics, the same as women with smaller bustlines. Fat can be just as much a product of nature. It's not always up to what a fat person eats, doesn't eat, or how much they exercise or don't. Some people are just genetically fat.

I agree with you up to a point. Yes, certain things cannot be changed--breast size, body type--it's the luck of the draw. However, there is often much one can do with the genetic card they've been dealt. I personally know a man who lost 125 pounds in the last 2 years. He always believed he was "just fat." A visit to the emergency room woke him up to the fact that he had to do something about his weight or he would die. He told me the biggest surprise was how easy it was to lose all that weight--he did not have to severely restrict himself or exercise constantly, just adjust his portions and food choices, and start a pretty moderate exercise plan. He still eats ice cream every night--just a reasonable portion. He's still a big guy and will always be, but no longer obese, and his life has improved dramatically. Look at Oprah Winfrey--she's a "large"-ish lady, but not obese--she's healthy and in shape for her body type, and quite beautiful, I think.

I wish breast size was as easily adjusted. But I've said enough on that, since it's getting a little off-topic.

ailurophile, I'm very glad my words helped! I should have mentioned that although your guy may just be, well, being a guy with his comments, you still have to let him know how his comments make you feel. You probably know that but just want to make it clear. I'm not saying that what he's saying is okay or you should put up with it over the long run if it hurts you. If my hubby says something that rubs me the wrong way, I definitely tell him, but I've found that his comments leave less of a sting if I remind myself that he truly does not know. I get twisted when I feel "he should know better in the first place," since to me it's plain as day that what he said is hurtful. However, it may simply be that it's NOT plain as day to him and he doesn't mean to, well, be mean. It's like meeting someone from a different culture and you make the "okay" sign with your hand and they take it to mean you are saying they are an asshole.

[ailurophile]

karategrrl: I also wanted to say that I'm proud of you for standing up to those guys with the explicit photos in their store. That took alot of courage to say something. Shame on them, especially the owner, for allowing such offensive and crude pictures for the public to see. I can't imagine a business allowing that and laughing it off as well.

[thirtiesgirl]

I have something to say about the the "weight loss thing". I personally don't think that can be compared to implants. Being fat is a result of putting too much of unhealthy food into your body, lack of exercise, medical problems (ie: thyroid condition), etc. Weight problems can be adjusted by dieting, exercise, medication or help by a healthcare professional. You can be thinner with the will to do it and the right help. (I've been there.) On the other hand, our tiny breasts developed by nature only. That's what we got and that's it. Evasive surgery can help both, of course, but weight can be reduced naturally whereas breast growth cannot happen naturally. When you lose weight, you have the option of becoming where you should be as to be proportionate to your height. Big breasts and small breasts are an issue of where you should be by where society thinks you should be, therefore affecting our (at least my) self esteem. Sorry! Although I feel for your personal issues, as you may mine, it is not a comparable analogy.

Hmm. I think you're forgetting that many fat people are a product of genetics, the same as women with smaller bustlines. Fat can be just as much a product of nature. It's not always up to what a fat person eats, doesn't eat, or how much they exercise or don't. Some people are just genetically fat.

[ailurophile]

Thanx karategrrl. That was very comforting....more than you know. No one has asked me to "titty fuck" yet (knock on wood). I guess they've known better.

[karategrrl]

ailurophile, I could have written your posting. My man is the same way with the head-turning and joking. I have started to become convinced that I will never understand some things about men (and God help me if I do, ha.)

Yep, they love US, want US, would never cheat on US, but...another attractive woman walks by (perhaps with a big rack, real or not) and it's whiplash time. If the girl pays him attention, the salivary gland also kicks in and drool commences. I have actually come to recognize a distinctive look on hubby's face when this happens--it's like all other brain function has ceased. It's actually creepy.

My hubby's joking has actually been a major sticking point in our relationship. I've said this before, but I've come to realize that he just doesn't hear/see/communicate the way I do. It's not a failingin his character, it's just the way he is. He doesn't realize the impact of his words/tone a lot of the time, while to him I'm just being "touchy." Men joke like crazy with each other all the time, constantly testing boundaries, teasing, saying shit they don't really mean, and when they do it with us, all hell can break loose.

I've also had experiences admiring a top or whatever, and so was my man, not realizing it would not fit me the way it was intended. Awhile back, someone else mentioned thier man wanting to <ahem> "titty fuck," not realizing that the laws of physics just weren't going to allow it. Been there, too. I KNOW all too well that it hurts, grrl, but consider that your guy may just be, well, being male.

Sorry for the generalizations. No, all men are not the same, BUT...when you witness the same behaviors constantly over 24 years of relationships with all different men, you can't help but notice patterns.

karategrrl: Ah! Don't you feel better that our sister Gwen didn't fall prey to the other side?? Thanx for that!

<breathy Darth Vader voice> "No, she did not fall prey to The Dark Side."
(Just kidding to those considering implants.)

[ailurophile]

"Many expressed a preference for small breasts, others like titties regardless of size." They all, including my current bf, seem to like mine but when they see bigger breasts, their heads turn. I can imagine the salivation going on. I think that's what makes me feel so bad. That tells me they may like mine but they like the others better...or they miss them or wish I was bigger or something. I wish I had your courage, strongirrl. And....I'm not feeling so hot anymore. I'm actually feeling pretty bad this week. I was starting to feel better about my self b/c of all the encouragement from you girls. You know, it's not the size, it's how they work. "It's all in the nipple." You girls were starting to boost my self esteem but something happened. I'm back to seeing the "two little pathetic things" on my chest. Not sure if this has anything to do with it....This weekend bf and I went to a fair and they were selling these really cute dresses. You know the ones where you don't where a bra but you have to have boobs to put inside and he said, "Wow that would look nice on you." What was he thinking?!?!?! I said you have to have boobs for a dress like that. Anyway, we went back and forth and I said something about implants. ( Yes, they still cross my mind.) This is where he was supposed to say, "No Honey, I wouldn't want you to do that." But there was silence. I later said that I was just kidding and I wouldn't do that. He's like, "Awww.... shucks." I looked at him in shock and he laughed. He said he was only kidding. He probably was, as he always jokes around, but I'm so damn sensitive about it that it hurt. I just feel so inadequate. Now I'm back to getting embarrassed when he takes off my shirt. It's like, why bother?!?!

I have something to say about the the "weight loss thing". I personally don't think that can be compared to implants. Being fat is a result of putting too much of unhealthy food into your body, lack of exercise, medical problems (ie: thyroid condition), etc. Weight problems can be adjusted by dieting, exercise, medication or help by a healthcare professional. You can be thinner with the will to do it and the right help. (I've been there.) On the other hand, our tiny breasts developed by nature only. That's what we got and that's it. Evasive surgery can help both, of course, but weight can be reduced naturally whereas breast growth cannot happen naturally. When you lose weight, you have the option of becoming where you should be as to be proportionate to your height. Big breasts and small breasts are an issue of where you should be by where society thinks you should be, therefore affecting our (at least my) self esteem. Sorry! Although I feel for your personal issues, as you may mine, it is not a comparable analogy.

karategrrl: Ah! Don't you feel better that our sister Gwen didn't fall prey to the other side?? Thanx for that!

[karategrrl]

Strongirl, very perceptive comments.

I especially like this:

I do want to add that I have never worn padded bra's and often wear no bra and very revealing tops. So they all knew what they were getting...they wanted it...and I gave it to them, with pleasure!

I need to try this sometime!!

[karategrrl]

I came across that Gwen Stefani "flashing" pic, and it IS fake. here's the real one:

http://picvalley.net/files/2006/04/07/8837...9c56f593df9.jpg

Whew. I would have been disappointed had it been real, though whoever's boobs they were are nice. And Gwen's, too, I'm sure.

[strongirl]

Vendetta, re. your decision to get implants you said: "Of course I'm gonna be sad if someone loves my plastic boobs but at least I'll be happy with myself. Being sad cause they don't like my flat chest or being sad cause they love my implants it's pretty much the same thing."

How will you ever be happy in your relationships like this? If you get plastic boobs and the guy you're with loves your boobs, you are going to feel sad? You are putting your future guys in a no-win position! He loves your boobs - you feel bad because you think he only wants your big, fake boobs. He doesn't love your boobs - you will be pissed off and wondering why you bothered with the health risks and expense. No win. Poor guys. Poor you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get implants. While I won't be getting them for a long list of reasons, I have been more supportive of that choice than others in this thread. But I do feel sorry for any guy who is put in that no-win position you describe, especially if he sincerely cares about you as a person. And I wonder how you will be happy.

Speaking of which, I thought ailurophile's comment that my boyfried is "weird" was pretty funny. But honestly, I have been very sexually active for multiple decades and have had dozens of lovers and not one was unenthusiastic about my little tits! Many expressed a preference for small breasts, others like titties regardless of size. I do want to add that I have never worn padded bra's and often wear no bra and very revealing tops. So they all knew what they were getting...they wanted it...and I gave it to them, with pleasure!

[thirtiesgirl]

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self.

Gah! Dr. Horney?!? Hahaha....

(Sorry. I have the mentality of a hormonal 13 year old boy.)

[karategrrl]

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self. There is the "real self" -who we actually are, and the "ideal self" - who we think we should be. Trouble (and neurosis) starts when the ideal self is setting impossible goals (such as growing bigger breasts, or losing 20 pounds when you only weigh 100).

Yes, this is a very interesting point. On a related point, I've read studies that concluded that when we are unhappy, it's often because we have an idea in our head about the way our life, our body, a person in our life, etc. "should" be, and when we compare it to how it really is, it falls short. Studies have shown that those with lower exectations are happier overall.

I have noticed that when I'm down, it's often because I am doing this--thinking of how things "should" be rather than focusing on what's right in my life. Of course, I have to ride a fine line between lowering my expectations and aiming high--because if we never set goals or examined our lives, we'd never accomplish anything or make positive changes. It's one of those things that drives me in circles sometimes, ha.

[crinoline]

that's an interesting question, V. It brings to mind one of the controversies in psychology: Active vs. Reactive. As in, how much of our emotion/personality is determined internally (active) as opposed to being determined by external stimuli (reactive). It's usually a complicated combination of both.

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self. There is the "real self" -who we actually are, and the "ideal self" - who we think we should be. Trouble (and neurosis) starts when the ideal self is setting impossible goals (such as growing bigger breasts, or losing 20 pounds when you only weigh 100).

It is most important for emotional health to feel good about our real selves.

I'm curious what you mean by self-erotic? autoeroticism? Could you explain a little bit further?

[Vendetta]

Does anyone has a "self-erotic" side?

[Vendetta]

Has anyone made a point about self-image or body image or is it that these kind of problems only occur because "society dictates"? I think everyone has to feel good for themselves and living a life against "society standards" isn't going to leed anyone anywhere?

[thirtiesgirl]

thirties girl:
I am personally very much against weight-loss surgery. I work in health care and know only too well what is involved in the surgery. Basically, the surgeon is messing with nature's design of how we are supposed to get nutrients to feed our bodies. I personally know two people who have had the surgery, and both are just as heavy as before, 2 and 5 years afterwards. The only thing is, they can't EVER eat normally again and cannot reverse the surgery. The surgery changed their bodies, but the real issue--eating and exercise habits were not properly addressed, and therefore the procedure, in the end, failed.

The issue at hand, I feel, is the same one as with breast augmentation--the surgery changes the body when it is the psyche that needs the support.

Well said, karategrrl, and molerat, too. You both make some very valid points and I'm glad you put some thought into your answers. This is the kind of discussion I was trying to spark.

[kittenb]

My point in bringing this up is to disagree with your assessment that 'weight loss can improve health and longevity,' and bring the focus back to my question, which is can we apply the same standards of judgment to small chested women who get implants and fat women who lose weight? Let's leave the 'losing weight can lead to better health' argument out of it, if possible, because most of the fat girls know that argument is bunk.

I would like to make a response to this but I think I am going to take it to the "Take it outside' thread b/c it might be off-topic for here.