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> What Name For A Violent Act? (triggers Ahoy!)
phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 06:35 AM
Post #41


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QUOTE
i disagree. i don't think experience-- some sort of bdsm resume, or having done research-- has much to do with it. i think we kind of got of on a bdsm tangent, going by bdsm logic, they have failed terribly, but i think considering they were coming at this from a place of ignorance about bdsm basics, that is how we need to look at it.

from that POV;

how much do you have to know to know not to hurt someone you care about?

how much training do you have to have to know that your wife is crying isn't a good thing?

my answer?
none.

you don't have to know anything about bdsm to know what happened: her trust was violated.


Yes, completely. The BDSM thing is a red herring.

"this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." "

Seriously? Stacy needs to get the fuck out of there. If he really thinks that having a safeword means he can just do whatever the fuck he wants to her because she didn't SAY the safeword, he is not only uncommonly dense, but extremely unsafe and should NOT BE TRUSTED EVER EVER AGAIN. You don't have to be some BDSM guru to understand that a safeword is not consent to everything your evil little brain can come up with. That's fucking common sense. I can't even explain how wrong this is. I really think Stacy needs to leave Bob, get some counseling alone, and then maybe decide if this is a relationship worth saving. It sounds like she's not in a mental place where she can process this, especially if SHE'S apologizing to HIM for HIM RAPING HER. Not to mention -- they've been married for YEARS, they must have known each other for a while before that, so I just can't accept that good ol' Bob really thought everything was OK. He knew what he was doing, he knew it wasn't ok. Anything else he says is just excuses, rough sex or not.

Seriously, go read that thread at Pandagon I linked to. Ugh.

And ok, I agree that arguing over whether it should be labeled "rape" isn't neccesarily useful, but I'm of the opinion that we (as in society) need to be much more willing to call a spade a spade. It wasn't so long ago that marital rape wasn't even considered "real," so our definitions can certainly be changed and molded as our understanding of things change. It's a good discussion to have, but I do get uneasy when people start arguing "oh it's not really rape." That just sends up red flags for me.

PS -- sorry if I'm coming across as really sweary and angry. I am angry. It's very frustrating to me to see BDSM dragged into this, as though somehow kinky people are more likely to not understand consent, or kink makes consent somehow ambiguous. It does not. In fact, in normal circumstances, power dynamic sex usually means MORE discussion, MORE care taken to ensure everyone's ok, MORE attention by the "top." Seeing someone use rough sex as an excuse to justify what happened here makes me sick.
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_octinoxate
post Oct 23 2007, 12:44 AM
Post #42


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[delurking]

I've been following this conversation and I find myself questioning the wisdom of naming this act. Of course, on the one hand I totally understand it's highly significant that by naming something, you make sense of it, you define its reality, its nature... and on the other hand, that's actually exactly why i'm very hesitant to give any name to this situation at all. in my mind, this is both Rape and Not-Rape. or, it's neither Rape nor Not-Rape. The situation seems way too complex, too messy, too multifaceted, too uncertain to label with one concept OR the other. it seems to me that if i were stacy, i would want to be *less* concerned with exactly what to call the violent act that had been committed against me, and *more* concerned with the resultant trust issues, how i saw my husband, how he saw me, my intent (in all its complexity/contradiction), his intent (in all its complexity/contradiction), and so on. it feels like labeling the event definitely as rape--or rejecting that construct definitely--would cramp my ability to process the event in a way that felt full and natural to me personally.

ok, relurking again. but before i do so, i want to thank y'all for this very insightful and respectful conversation about an important matter.
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greenbean
post Oct 23 2007, 12:04 AM
Post #43


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(deleted)
I realized I'm not ready to use myself as an example in this discussion.


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I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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ananke
post Oct 22 2007, 11:06 PM
Post #44


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Here's the thing for me: I've done BDSM, I've done it gone bad bad bad bad. I've been hurt, I've been pleasured, I've done that. None of that is part of my life now, even though the MU and I get into some rough stuff, some bondage and some kinky things. So we don't have safewords, because 'no', 'stop' and 'ow' are the safewords. This isn't a scene, this isn't 'play' - this is us doing what we like, it just includes some of the stuff BDSM lifestylers do. So while GT likes the crying and saying no with her daddy, I don't cry or say no, even if we were doing the same acts (unlikely, but possible...).

Stacey and Bob weren't doing BDSM, they were doing rough sex. Bob just decided it was a scene where 'no' and crying meant something different to any other time they have sex.

But I'm with phobia - if he can't understand those most basic of signals, I sure as fuck would noy 'play' with him. Hell I'd reconsider leaving with him.
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girltrouble
post Oct 22 2007, 10:37 PM
Post #45


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i disagree. i don't think experience-- some sort of bdsm resume, or having done research-- has much to do with it. i think we kind of got of on a bdsm tangent, going by bdsm logic, they have failed terribly, but i think considering they were coming at this from a place of ignorance about bdsm basics, that is how we need to look at it.

from that POV;

how much do you have to know to know not to hurt someone you care about?

how much training do you have to have to know that your wife is crying isn't a good thing?

my answer?
none.

you don't have to know anything about bdsm to know what happened: her trust was violated.



--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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pepper
post Oct 22 2007, 09:30 PM
Post #46







~~"His reply was that this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." "~~

that there just gave me chills. *shiver*

i want to say that totally ignoring everything she was expressing in every way But verbally was heinous... but i can't. they just don't have the experience to have known what the Fuck they were doing in my opinion. he may very well have been trying to give her what he thought she really wanted. argh, i really advocate for researching something so serious before just diving in but it seems that making a mistake is how a LOT of people figure out that there's a right and a wrong way to play.

the thing is though, after it happened and she let him know that it was wrong wrong wrong for her his first reaction was "that's what you get." and that still doesn't feel right to me. and now she's apologizing to him? no. i don't think so.

what a mess.
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tallgirl
post Oct 22 2007, 08:06 PM
Post #47


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She knows academically that it was not her fault, and yet can't accept it into her being. She feels like she needs to apologize to him because she feels like she pushed him to the point where he misunderstood what she wanted, and then she failed to say the magic word "stop." I know it's a mess - and she does as well - but that doesn't stop her from laying the blame at her own feet.


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One day... one day there will be peace in my heart, order in my head, and simple silence all around. I just hope I live to see it.
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phobia
post Oct 22 2007, 07:34 PM
Post #48


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Tallgirl -- please please please reiterate to Stacy that THIS WASN'T HER FAULT. She needs to stop fucking apologizing. NOT HER FAULT. I hope whatever therapist they go to can help her understand this.

Maybe since you know her better, you can help clarify the concept that "despite" all her (HER) apologies to Bob, she still felt like she'd been raped. I'm very baffled by this. Why does she feel like she needs to apologize to him for feeling like he violated her? He violated her, ferchrissakes. God, I'm sorry, I know they're your friends, but she was raped by her husband and is apologizng to him? This situation is beyond fucked up.
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tallgirl
post Oct 22 2007, 06:50 PM
Post #49


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I only have time for the briefest of replies, so I'm going to hit two points and then get back to work.

1 - In discussing the event immediately after it happened, Stacy told Bob she was sorry if she had confused him as to what she wanted. His reply was that this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." Clearly this is a part of the relationship that has to be redefined.

2 - Stacy's immediate reaction was that she had been raped, and despite apologizing to Bob several times after it happened, she continued to feel that way for more than 24 hours after the event. The more she thinks about it now, though, the more she feels it was just a whole situation gone wrong. She does think Bob should have stopped, but knows he didn't intend to rape her, and she also blames herself for instigating the event. It's all quite the mess.

I have definitely expressed that they should consider counselling if they want to get past this, and am sure it is being discussed. Thank you all again for your feedback.


--------------------
One day... one day there will be peace in my heart, order in my head, and simple silence all around. I just hope I live to see it.
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girltrouble
post Oct 22 2007, 05:30 PM
Post #50


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word, ananke. it's that ignoring that gets me.



it all comes back to consent & communication. how could he not see her crying as a red flag? daddy and i have had pretty crazy play, but when i start crying, she ALWAYS spot checks on me with a "where are you at?" or a "you still ok?" and my crying is frequent. so, if, as tall girl posted, she'd never cried before, even the most inexperienced dom/me would do that at a minimum.

phob, i think you're being incredibly clear-- and that quote was spot on.

pugs: as for some people use it to cause pain, sure. most of the dom/mes (including myself when i top) love inflicting pain. but we are ETHICAL. one of the most sadistic tops i know (who uses brass knuckles in play) is very careful choosing her subs, and their consent is ALWAYS required. are there people who use bdsm as a pretext for bad things? of course, just like there are people who use safety as a pretext for war. but they are not ethical. she does probono work for some in the bdsm, and she will lay it out legally. consent is everything.

as for bob's comments post rape; that seems to me a bit of (vile) shame for what he'd done.

QUOTE
girltrouble wrote "when daddy and i play i beg, plead, cry and sob, i say no, stop, please, and every varriation thereof, but she likes pushing me to my limit, she litterally won't stop until i say my safe word". And doing that was Bob's mistake. He wasn't checking to see if Stacy was feeling too much pain, or not enough, or maybe he should change the speed, maybe vary the pressure, but Stacy doesn't want to answer questions, well at least we've got that safeword! And the idea that Stacy might not remember the safeword may not have been one of Bob's main thoughts at the time


and looking, do not take my posts out of context. the difference between what daddy and i do, and the situation we are discussing here, is that she and i have had NUMEROUS conversations about the parameters of what we each want. and we both have quite a lot of experience with bdsm and negotiating our limits. and even with daddy, the second she ignores my safeword is the second i never play with her again. i had to learn the hard way, playing with me, (or any sub) is a privilage, and if that trust is violated, that privilage gets revoked.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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phobia
post Oct 22 2007, 05:19 PM
Post #51


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KittenB -- I totally agree. HOWEVER, it seems clear that at least at the time, Stacy did NOT consent to the sex act being forced upon her. Sex without consent = rape, in my mind. It don't get a lot simpler than that. In addition, I think it's perfectly possible for women who are victims of date (ok or in this case husband) rape to not process what happened to them as "rape." That doesn't mean it wasn't sex without consent, if that makes sense. I'm not saying that they don't know or understand what happened, but it might be that she doens't want to call it "rape," for whatever reason, or that she only think "rape" happens with a stranger jumping out of the bushes. So while Stacy's word is indeed needed, and should be respected, I don't think that every time a woman claims she wasn't raped that that means that every sexual activity she's had has been consentual.

Gods, what a terrible sentence. Sorry. What I mean is that not wanting to call it rape, either to yourself or to others, doesn't make it consentual, fun, happy sex. There, see, if I just slow down a bit I can actually express myself!
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kittenb
post Oct 22 2007, 04:46 PM
Post #52


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I have been following this thread for a few days and I want to voice my opinion. I don't think Bob had the intention of raping his wife. And I am not known for my tendancies to be light on rapists. I think that things went wrong.

However, my feelings mean nothing here. The question is, does Stacey think that she was raped? I have no authority to define her experience here. None of us do (other than the fact that this thread was started for just that purpose.) If Stacey were to tell me that she was raped, I would believe her. If she comes to that conclusion, I will support her. But I don't think that that is what Bob meant to do.

Oh, and looking, I put my response to your question in the "Take It Outside" Thread.


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In times of destruction, create something.
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ananke
post Oct 22 2007, 04:20 PM
Post #53


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I'm with Phobia - this isn't a matter of 'oh sorry'. This is a matter of ignoring EVERYTHING Stacey was doing and saying during sex, then dismissing it afterwards.

Not to mention 'stop' as a safeword makes me think it was less a safeword and more 'when I say stop, we have to stop'.
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phobia
post Oct 22 2007, 04:14 PM
Post #54


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Pugs, that's a really interesting POV regarding the possibility that Bob just isn't cut out for consentual kink. I might have to think on that some more, but my initial reaction is that he should have made that very very clear when they first started playing around like this. If he truly honestly didn't think he'd be able to control himself, well, that's an issue he REALLY needs to work out with a therapist, because it doesn't sound like the kind of thing that will be limited to "rough sex" forever!!! ohmy.gif

But I still think that we're giving Bob way too much leeway just because there was a history of "rough sex." Yes, lots of people do use BDSM as an excuse to abuse, but I think that's kind of a red herring. The point of the story is that Bob forced sex on his wife when she didn't want it. She gave every sign of not wanting it, and if they've been married for "years," rough sex or no, he should have known it was no consentual. I just think the whole "rough sex" thing is a smokescreen, if that makes sense.

I mean, we wouldn't even have had a three page discussion if it weren't for the rough sex part, right? In any other context, it's clear.

And also, frankly, what Bob was thinking doesn't even matter. From the Pandagon thread I linked to:
"The crime of rape lies in the lack of consent of the victim, not the enthusiasm or motives of the rapist. "

I dunno, I don't think I'm making my point very clearly, which I apologize for. I just really really think the issue of "rough sex" is being used to excuse Bob raping Stacy. YMMV.
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 22 2007, 03:20 PM
Post #55







QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 22 2007, 01:51 PM) *
Rough sex doesn't make people rapists, lord knows. Lots of people get raped in perfectly "vanilla" contexts.


phobia - not what i meant at all. some bdsm'ers use bdsm as an excuse to abuse people right? do we agree on that part? (not being smart just asking) gt? that there are bdsm'ers who want to have a good time experiencing new things. then i believe that their are others who use it as a reason to hurt people. i think deep down these people are disturbed. i consider bdsm as a way to expand your mind and highten your senses kind of thing not hurt or emotionally damage someone else.

i think maybe bob doesn't understand that bdsm is a way to come together and please one another. i think he just thinks his wife likes pain. i don't like pain. if i fall down the steps and sprain my ankle i am not happy but...i can get spanked for a half an hour and love every second of it, welts, bruises and all. i don't think he can understand the concept of pain=pleasure=closeness=happiness. i think he has it ass backwards like anger=bdsm=rough sex kinda thing. so when his wife was pushing him he thought she wanted pain. i don't think he can rationalize the difference in his mind. this is why i'm saying that maybe it's not for him. he can't do the math in his head. maybe he's just not emotionally right in the head for it. does that make sense?

i'm going to say this and it's going to make people mad i just know it but i'm going to say it. i don't think bob raped his wife. i think that is ridiculous and blown way the fuck out of proportion. i think this was a bad experience gone very bad and they need therapy. Period. Actually, I've thought this all along and my opinion hasn't really changed even after reading everyone else's posts. so i think having said that so as not to start a flamewar (again) I'm gonna lurk in this thread from now on and continue to read everyone's posts and follow the situation.

tallgirl - please, please, please pass on my concerns to stacy and bob. i'm sure their marriage is at stake and that is never a good thing. i hope i wasn't one of the unsympathetic posters you mentioned. i'm trying to be honest in my posts. having been in a relationship for 11+ years i know fucked up things can happen that make you question everything your relationship is based on. believe me i really do know and have been there. those times are the hardest imo. tell them good luck for me. and thanks for being such a good friend to come post it on bust and listen to what other women (and men) have to say. stacy and bob are lucky to have you as a friend. smile.gif
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phobia
post Oct 22 2007, 11:34 AM
Post #56


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"Sounds to me, from his reluctance to play rough, that Bob has a bit of a dark side that he feared would come out if they have rough sex as was proven with this incident. "

See, I don't understand this. Rough sex doesn't make people rapists, lord knows. Lots of people get raped in perfectly "vanilla" contexts. In addition, it still doesn't address the concept that Bob raped his wife to punish her for playfully taunting him. Dark stuff can definitely come out during rough sex or other kinky play, but I just have not usually heard of responsible, sane people suddenly becoming rapists when they are engaging in rough sex. Maybe GirlTrouble can chime in on this one?

I'll say it again. It's literally un-fucking-believable to me that Bob didn't know or understand exactly what he was doing. He's a rapist, and his wife needs to decide if that's something she can live with. I know I might have come off as waffly on this point earlier, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like this supposed ambiguity is bullshit. Come on -- they've been married for years! Do you really think he's so out of touch with her that he can't tell the difference between "ooh, no, stop [wink wink]" and "~sob sob~ stop! stop! please no! ~sob sob~" Come on. I just can't believe that liking rough sex somehow means rape isn't rape...
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 22 2007, 10:15 AM
Post #57







QUOTE(tallgirl @ Oct 22 2007, 10:48 AM) *
Bob's stated reason for refusing to be rough with Stacy until recently was that he was afraid of hurting her or doing something she would really not want.


Sounds to me, from his reluctance to play rough, that Bob has a bit of a dark side that he feared would come out if they have rough sex as was proven with this incident. Now that he knows this about himself I'm sure he is worried about what might happen if they try it again. With that being said, I don't think they should have rough sex at all until they go and get some professional help. It sucks for her if that's what she likes but I don't think it's in his nature to stay in control of his emotions. Does that make sense?

As far as "doing something she would really not want". Mr. Pug and I are sure of what we both want because we've talked about it. He isn't allowed to do anything new without discussing it with me first. So there isn't any doing something I might not like because we are going to talk about it first before he even tries.

If having rough sex is that important to Stacy then maybe they do need to go talk to someone. Let me change that. Bob might need to go talk to someone about how to keep himself under control during rough sex. Either way, I'm sure it's going to take some time for them to work up to that level of trust again.
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girlygirlgag
post Oct 22 2007, 09:23 AM
Post #58


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QUOTE(looking @ Oct 22 2007, 08:53 AM) *
In my opinion, Bob made that comment as an attempt at saving face, as well as flexing his delusional "macho control muscles". Most of us are aware that some guys say things like that rather than admitting that they were wrong.

Until Stacy made it clear that what Bob did was "not what she wanted", Bob was probably under the (false) impression that Stacy's physical and verbal "taunting" which included questioning his manhood, combined with her "smiling and acting playful", meant that she wanted to play at what she enjoyed and found exciting (rough sex play).



so, that makes it okay? blink.gif

BTW, I think we all know why he said that and the reasons behind it. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

I too, find your posting style rude, condescending and trolling. welcome to my ignore list.


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phobia
post Oct 22 2007, 09:09 AM
Post #59


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TallGirl -- thanks so much for the clarification. I'm still deeply worried about Bob's reaction, and you additionaly stated that "[Stacy] has promised Bob that she'll never taunt him in that way again." The problem was NOT her taunting, it was that he used it as an excuse to assault his wife.

I'm finding it kind of hard to understand why, since Stacy and Bob like rough sex, this is suddenly some sort of ambiguous gray area where we can't really tell if Bob raped her or if he meant to. It seems unbelievable that he didn't know/realize/understand what he was doing at the time, especially in light of your clarification (e.g., she's never cried during sex, she's never tried to push him off before, etc.). And his threat that if she behaved in the same way again she could expect the same treatment has not yet been adequately explained, especially since she's "promised not to taunt him in that way again." This was NOT Stacy's fault. I can't stress that enough. Nobody ever deserves something like that happening to them, whether they are into rough sex or not. Rough sex does not create the kind of gray area that I think some people are attributing to the situation, IMO/IME.

In fact, I did discuss this situation with my boyfriend, and he said the same thing. If there's not consent, it's rape, whether you like to be tied up or held down or whatever. This reminds me of the current situation...
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culturehandy
post Oct 22 2007, 08:45 AM
Post #60


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Tallgirl, the clerification helps teremendously. With that, I would highly recommend that Stacy and Bob go to counselling. They are not going to emotionally heal without seeing someone. As many of us have stated.

As for Looking, I hate to say this, but your first post disgusted me, and as you are very well aware, first impressions are the lasting impressions. Yes, you came in here and stated your opinion and attempted to redeem yourself, but because of the vile nature of your first post, I, for one, am having a difficult time with anything else you post. I find your posting style rude and condescending. I also gather the impression that you are trying to make yourself appear better than the rest of us. This is the internet, you are nothing more than a screen name, just as the rest of us. The difference between you and the rest of us, is that the rest of us, upon first posting, never EVER posted anything as you did. Good for you for being so opinionated about things, many of us are, but that still doesn't change how I feel.


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Hatred does not cease in this world by hating, but by not hating; this is an eternal truth. --- Buddah, The Dhammapada
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