[strongirl]

Vendetta, I remember you too and I'm glad to know you are well, or mostly well. My heartfelt condolences about your dad and sympathy to you during your grieving. He sounds like a wonderful man and you were so lucky to have him as a dad. The song you shared was beautiful, thanks for sharing.

Also best of luck to you with your surgery - wishing you a quick recovery and complete satisfaction with your results. It's not for me, but that doesn't mean I can't hope for a good outcome for someone else, as with Spot-on.

Karategrrl, excellent advice on the exercises, I would totally concur. Without going to a gym, though, it's surprising how much you can gain with plain old pushups. The first time I ever experienced "muscle cleavage" was from doing 20 pushups a day at home. When I saw a photo of myself in a low cut top with that characteristic shadow in the middle, I was like "Whoa! Where did that come from?" I wasn't doing the pushups for cleavage, I was doing them for strength, and didn't even realize I'd get that "side effect".

On the strip club thing, I can understand your anxiety, Buttercups, but unless you want it to, I doubt it poses any kind of serious threat to your relationship. Big boobs are everywhere - your boyfriend (and all of us) are inundated with big boob "marketing" on a daily basis. He still chooses you. There are tons of issues around the sex industry, strip clubs, and porn and your discomfort is totally understandable. But you're not gonna resolve all those issues with him, or even in your own head (unless you're way ahead of me...and I've tried pretty hard). What about saying to him "I don't want to come between you and your friends but I don't want this weekend to come between you and me, either. Here's what I need to feel more comfortable:" Then list 2 or 3 things that would make you feel better. For me, that would be to get filled in on what it was like, in detail - knowlege always lessens my anxiety. Also maybe sex with me first thing upon his return. And a commitment not to have sex with someone else during the weekend - no "hall pass" (anyone else hate the commercials for that movie?). I dunno if any of this is helpful or relevent to you, but thought I'd throw it out there.

There was a poster in here who used to work as a stripper but now I forget who that was. At one point, she contributed some awesome material on what it was like, including the fact that being small-breasted was not really a detriment in her work. If she's still around, now might be a good time for her to chime in.

On your sweet question of how did I get to be so strong...wow, tough question, and believe me, I have my weaknesses and struggles. But if I had to choose one helpful thing, I'd say the influences of other strong women - from my mom and grandmothers and aunts, to feminists whose work I've read (Gloria Steinem, Betty Dodson, Jill Johnston, Susan Brownmiller), to friends I made while working on the rape crisis hotline, to long dead icons (Ada Lovelace, Joan of Arc, Louisa May Alcott). I copycat. I see women I admire and I try to be like them. That's how.

[_Vendetta]

Opting for any kind of elective surgery when you are not well resolved within is half way for a bad emotional result.

Though I would love to have bigger breasts, I don't HATE my AA's. I just feel sad when I see all that beautiful lingerie I can't wear or when I look at myself in the mirror with certain clothes and feel pathetic. I feel mad at myself when I stare at some girl's cleavage, which happens a lot. And I do it cause, well, I don't have them.
But I don't have feelings of inadequacy, embarrassment or anything.
I'm okay in a bikini, naked or braless.
I just know I would feel like a million bucks if I had them.

[KeraBear]

Thanks, BC. I guess since I am one of the youngest here, I sometimes fool myself into thinking I have nothing to give. The porn thing was difficult, yeah, but I have never been faced with the strip club question. That is a whole new level! Let us know what happens...

I haven't had surgery yet, the first consultation in on next week.

I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.
I just wonder how it would be like to have breasts. And decided to finally go for it.

I guess I am still confused. You say you love yourself the way you are, but yet... I dunno, the act of breast augmentation seems to contradict that. You are doing this out if curiosity? What if you find you do not like it? Then it would be an expensive mistake. Sorry, I am not trying to sound critical. Just trying to understand. Btw, so sorry to hear about your dad. That has to be so hard!

[secretsights88]

I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.

I think that since we have been talking about implants lately, this is very relevant to the topic. I don't think I'd get implants, but I think what Vendetta posted here is key for any woman considering implants. And I think many women who undergo breast augmentation are not in the same position to say "I love myself completely". Many hate themselves and thus get implants.

It's great that you love yourself completely Vendetta.

I think self acceptance and self love is really important when undergoing surgery.

[_Vendetta]

I haven't had surgery yet, the first consultation in on next week.

I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.
I just wonder how it would be like to have breasts. And decided to finally go for it.

[karategrrl]

Strongirl, see you at the gym later. And really astute observation about feeling in control! Interesting. I DO find it VERY notable that like 99.999999999999% of the breast augmentation surgeons out there are male.

any tips on how to get some of that muscle cleavage?? I'll take any cleavage I can get and I'm willing to work for it! Can you really make yourself fill out that much more…”
Buttercups, you can’t increase your breast tissue through working out, but you CAN increase and define the pecs, which in turn give nice shape to the chest. Also, workingout your arms and shoulders, and upper back are all great for defining, strengthening and building the upper body. (Looks great, and really useful for lifting groceries and fighting osteoporosis:)

I won’t write a book here, but what works for me are three exercises: 1) chest press (for building the size of the pecs 2) pec squeezes (where you squeeze in-defines pecs) and (this is there the cleavage really gets defined) 3) standing cable flyes. see this link.You can google any of these and find machine or maybe free weight versions. Don’t know if you belong to a gym. Oh, and you want to do 3 sets, with high enough weight (this is where many women wimp out and therefore don’t see results.) On set one, the weight should be where you can between 10 and 12 reps; set two: 8-10, and set three: around 6-8 (or even like 5). I wrote all this here in case anyone else was interested, but PLEASE feel free to “personal message” me if you need more info. GLAD to give it! In another life I’ll be a personal trainer. Strongirl, feel free to chime in. Don’t want to overwhelm buttercups, but I may have missed something that may help her. (?)

also, I agree with secretsight that you have a right to feel how you feel about your guy’s weekend away. I am not a prude either, secretsight, but I don’t think that’s any place for a committed man to be. And also I do feel that these clubs are ripe for women’s being subjugated and objectified. Women’s opinions on this all are over the board, but these are my personal opinions. If it bugs YOU, you have the right to be bugged. Also remember, guys do all that male bonding “beer and boobs” crap and blow a lot of hot air out their assholes with each other. They think it’s cool and masculine. I’m not saying that that it’s okay for his friend to act like a caveman but know that they just will. It's not acceptable, but don’t let it shock or hurt you. (PS: how would your BF feel if you spoke of going out with some of your GFs while he’s gone—to a male strip club—or out by yourself to a club? You might find he has a double standard about it.)

And yes, I'm sure he already knows what all sorts of breasts look like. A quality man will be concerned with what's attached to it. If he chose you then he recognizes a quality woman.

vendetta, I remember you. Surprised you're back. I’m unclear—did you have the breast augmentation surgery? You said you were sure you wanted to do it, then later in your post said you wanted to focus on other things besides your body.

[anarch]

Vendetta, I remember you and am happy to see your username again! I'm sorry to hear about your dad. He sounds like an awesome dad.
I'm glad you came to a decision that was right for you. I had wondered how things were with you.

Anarch I am definitely anything but kind to myself, and I want to fix that and first fix the feeling I have that I deserve to feel bad about myself for whatever reason. Do you ever wonder if deep down inside you are a bad person? I wonder that about myself sometimes and think maybe I just deserve to not like myself. I want to be a better person to everyone in my life, and maybe then I'll feel better about myself.

I used to wonder if I was a bad person for having certain thoughts and desires and doing certain things. For years, I didn't like myself. I thought I was ugly and not smart enough. I was embarrassed to be me.

What changed? Right after high school, my sister recommended that I take a personal growth course. The main thing about it was, it forced me to practice trying out "I like myself" and "I deserve to be happy" and "I deserve to feel pretty" and "I deserve to be treated with respect" and "I am powerful" and "These are my good qualities [itemized, one by one]" and "These are my beauty spots [itemized]" and "I AM SEXY!" -- first in my head, and then saying these things out loud. Saying them out loud repeatedly, to somebody in the course that I was partnered up with. Corny, and probably it wouldn't work for everybody, but it forced a crack into my self-hatred. It forced me to admit that another way to think about myself existed, even though I felt stupid saying this stuff and I didn't think I'd ever really believe it. After the course ended, I kept on saying a lot of these things to myself, just to practice, even though it still felt stupid for a long time. I kept at it because the possibility of genuinely feeling powerful and sexy, and being treated like it, it felt like a promise that was a hell of a lot better than the self-destructive things I had been used to saying and thinking about myself.

Part of the process required surrounding myself with people who supported this change. And, just as important, either cutting out of my life the people who didn't, or minimizing my contact with them, or protecting my boundaries from their bullshit thoughtlessly or intentionally hurtful judgments.

I think you've had to deal with a lot more of that shit than I ever did, and you get it from your family too as well as your bf's asshole buddies. Feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my ass here, but I don't think you need to be a better person to them. The sense of you I get from your comments here is that you are already considerate, thoughtful, you try to treat people well and if occasionally you don't, well you try to make up for it. That's a good person. One who deserves to feel loveable, confident and sexy and to have people around her who tell her so.

What about being a better person to yourself?

[_Vendetta]

Hei there

I don't know if some of you remember me, I used to post in here until about two years ago.
At that time, I decided one day to pursue a deep change in my life.
I went single, moved in to 10 minutes away from the beach, went healthy (healthy trying), got fit on Pilates - I opened my mind.
I was a happy workaholic.
I stopped posting here.
I tossed away my padded bras forever.

Almost 27 years old, two years after a huge and positive change in my life, I decided I was gonna put an end to the leech that kept eating me inside and made an appointment for surgery for the 18th February. I was still uncertain about it but certainly scared to death from it.

Twenty-one days before my appointment, my dad dies.

A day after an apparently simple surgery, a stroke hit him and he deceived - just like that.
I had left the hospital about an hour ago, with the medical information that he would come back to me in a day or two, when me and my brother started receiving confusing phone calls about him.

Our dad - our hero. The super dad that raised two mom-orphaned teenagers on his own, when we lost her at the age of 14/15.
Our super cool, clever, cult, humorous, special sweet dad.
He was gonna move in to countryside with his now grieving widow, comfortably retired from a respected journalism career, to make his dream come true: write books and take photographs.
The sweetest and brightest mind I've ever met.

I am so devastated I don't even have the strength to go down. I am numb.

Two weeks after the second worst day of my life, I was about to cancel my appointment when I realised I thought different.
I had no doubts I wanted to do it.

I learned the hardest way how ephemeral life is. I strongly feel that I have to live mine to its fullest.
I want to be focused on the important aspects of my life - my work, my art, my friends, my fragile family - not my body.
I'll take the risks as I can deal with the consequences.

My mom and dad will take care of me.


I was sitting here at my desk, on my own for the first time since, and obviously needed to rant.

I'll leave you with one of the most beautiful songs ever written:

Sia - Breathe Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSH7fblcGWM



Cheers

[_Vendetta]

h

[nbdx0645]

I rarely listen to pop radio, but I was sent this link of Pink's single and I found it relevant to our current discussion. Her lyrics are far better than anything I could say on the subject: P!NK :: Perfect (Also, as a heads-up, there's a self-harm scene in the video.)

Buttercups, surrender to the fact that you are beautiful and you are worthy.

[buttercups]

Awww Kera, you do give great advice! Thank you, you are just one smart cookie! I remember that whole thing with your bf and the porn, that was really tough and you were able to overcome it. As every woman in the universe has bigger boobs than me I know that he sees bigger boobs every day of his life and still comes back to me for whatever reason. I guess I should stop trying to figure out why and just focus on the fact that he does.

Secretsights88, thank you so much I'm really glad you decided to speak up in here because you have so many wonderful things to say. It's interesting what your ex said about the stripper/porn look, I wish it would get old everywhere and fast haha! And I so agree with everything you said about the "real women have curves" and other such bs. It bothers me that people don't realize that all that is doing is making another group of women feel bad about themselves. I hate all this backlash against being a size 0 and everything because that just makes all the naturally smaller girls feel bad about themselves. It shouldn't be about banning one size or another, for whatever reason we can just never come to accept all sizes. I have been hit hard by the "real women have curves" campaign because as we all know I have no curves whatsoever and felt excluded because of it. I never said anything bad about curvy women and always envied them, so I didn't understand why I was feeling attacked from them. I think we need a new saying to describe "real women" that includes everyone. Maybe we could all get better at seeing our unique beauty if it became more acceptable to do so.

Secretsights88, you also hit the nail on the head with all of the negativity that I've experienced in my life around how I look. Other people have really brought me down and have found it all right to make rude comments about my body without blinking an eye. I think I've mentioned before that I have yet to have a friend who hasn't said something about my size in a negative way. I try to compliment all my friends and make them feel good about themselves, but a lot of times people just focus on how small I am, etc. The negativity is hard to erase and just when you think you've escaped it here comes another asshole opening their mouth with another uncalled for comment. I think I've become obsessed with having what I believe to be the "perfect body" and I will never have it because it rejects everything that I am. To me, my idea of a perfect body is someone who is tall, with an hour glass figure and well-defined waist, long straight hair, a perfect pretty face. It's pretty much everything that I'm not but what I think people expect me to be. I'm not sure how to fix these things, it is just so ingrained in my head. I want the confidence that you all have and I want to stop torturing my bf with my insecurities. I almost want him to go to a strip club with his friends so that I can find a way to manage my anxiety about it without feeling the need to throw myself over a bridge. I want to prove that I can get over the jealousy and fear of being inadequate. But what if I can't and it just ends up making things worse. Sometimes I think it would be better to be single and not worry about what a guy thinks of my body. Just be by myself and not have to expose myself to anyone or worry about being good enough. Did anyone else experience a lot of negativity growing up or was I more of a target for some reason?

[secretsights88]

It can be hard to deal with something like that. I've never liked the idea of committed guys going to strip clubs or seeing strippers, even if they have small boobs... maybe I'm a prude or something, but if you're in a committed relationship, well, I feel you should enjoy your partner's body and only that. Porn I can accept, sorta, I don't like it either, but ro me strippers are on another level... even if the man doesn't get a lap dance and only watches the girls on stage, well, they're still there. I would never do that, especially because male strippers give me the creeps, I think they're so gross, and I'd hate to have a guy I don't know give me a lap dance and put his penis on my face. Lol, if I ever get married I SO don't want that for my bachelorette party...

But men are different, le sigh... But I agree with Kera, he has probably seen boobs already, and yes, he chooses to be with you. What I've tried thinking about when I've felt insecure like that in a relationship, is this: when I'm in love, the guy I'm in love with is the most perfect, beautiful man in the world to me. Really, I'm not kidding, I've felt like that, and that not even some TV hunk can compare... literally, I've been with a guy I love, looked at him, and have seen NO flaws at all, just beauty and perfection. And that's love. Because other people who weren't in love with him, saw imperfections in him, but to me that just didn't exist.

Now, in those situations, I focused on how I felt about that guy, how beautiful he was to me, and how much I loved him, how that made me feel warm, fuzzy and happy. I let all the feelings I had for him, physical and emotional flow through me. And then, when I was feeling that, I projected that towards me. Because if I felt that way about him, then he probably felt the same way about me.

My ex had been with girls with bigger boobs, yes. This made me feel insecure. But then there's so much more to a woman. There's so much more to beauty than breasts or any single body part. And you know what? Some other ex of his, the one who had broken his heart, and who I felt more insecure about, was even smaller than me, bust wise... she must be in the AAA - AA range. And she's freakin' GORGEOUS! I think she's way prettier than me, and I've a bit more up top. But does that matter? No, because the girl doesn't need big boobs to be gorgeous and she has no shortage of men.

But my ex thought I was prettier. He also had seen strippers (before being with me), and he said it was nothing special or arousing. He also told me that as men mature (at least that was his case it seems), men actually get tired and bored of the stripper/porn star look. Of course not all men are like this, but a lot are. And I can see why they get tired. They literally look all the same. They look generic, they may look "hot", but not beautiful because beauty is unique, not generic.

Buttercups, I also think that maybe you've been surrounded by too much negativity from a young age. I'm no shrink, at all, but from what I've read, it sounds as though people in your life have not been supportive. So it's pretty understandable why you'd doubt your looks so much. It's unfortunate, because receiving negativity from a young age can be pretty hard to "fix" when we're older. But at least you know it's not that you're unattractive, it's actually that people have been rude and well, that leaves emotional scars.

I feel that everyone here is gorgeous, including you. We all have our unique beauty. We're all femenine... I don't buy into the "real women have curves" thing at all. Sure, curves are beautiful and femenine, but they're not exclusively femenine. There are so many different types of femininity, of beauty, which have nothing to do with proportions or curves or whatnot. I've rarely seen women or girls who don't look femenine, and it mostly has to do with their attitude, than how they look. In most cases, they choose to look unfemenine.

I got inspired, lol. Anyway, the point is, talk to him about it. Make an agreement. He probably wants to go not to see boobs, but to be with his friends. And just 'cause his friends are dumb and go like "yay, beer and boobs" doesn't mean he has the same mentality. So take heart! But talk to him, and tell him how you feel, listen to how he feels. I'm sure it'll be good.

[discowombat]

doubt that this will be the moment that he "finally sees boobs". He's probably seen some before, somehow, someway whether in a prior relationship or at the very least in porn. I guess my point is that despite this, he chooses to be with YOU, beautiful you. You can't overlook that! Sorry... that's all I've got. I'm not the best at giving advice around here.

Actually Kera, that's great advice... or at least I think so since you practically read my mind, lol.

[KeraBear]

It is like we are forming a circle around Buttercups, all holding up mirrors to show her as she really is, to herself.

What a beautiful image...

Buttercups... oh dear, I can totally relate! This so reminds me of when I came running into the lounge in tears after discovering porn on mf BFs computer... I guess perhaps I will tell you the same thing that I was told. You can use this an opportunity to have a frank and open discussion with him about the subject. Also, I could be wrong, but I sorta doubt that this will be the moment that he "finally sees boobs". He's probably seen some before, somehow, someway whether in a prior relationship or at the very least in porn. I guess my point is that despite this, he chooses to be with YOU, beautiful you. You can't overlook that! Sorry... that's all I've got. I'm not the best at giving advice around here.

[buttercups]

Awww thanks ladies, I wish I could actually make myself believe good things about me, I'm trying harder, but it will be awhile I think. I forgot to mention that this guy also kind of had strange taste in women, so it wasn't as flattering as it could be haha. Strongirl how did you get to be so damn strong?? Thank you for making me see things that I wouldn't normally see on my own. There is a contrast between those 2 things, I want to learn to see myself differently.

I'm also kind of upset because my bf is going away on a guys' weekend and I saw that one of his friends wrote on his other friends' facebook wall that the weekend was going to be full of "beer n' boobs". Now I don't know what to think about it and I don't want to tell him not to go, but at the same time I am extremely sensitive about things and if he goes to a strip club or something I probably won't be able to show my body to him ever again. What happens when he finally sees boobs?? I confronted him about it and he says he just won't go with an angry tone, but I don't want him to just not go at all. I'm just not secure enough to be ok with him going to things like that. Even if I know he would never cheat on me, it would hurt me just to think that maybe he is finally noticing what he's missing with me.

Wow thanks for all the brown-eyed love! One of the only memories that I have of my very crude grandfather is him telling me as a little child that my eyes were brown because I was "full of shit". Glad to hear some people find other attractive things about brown eyes hahah!

Karategrrl, any tips on how to get some of that muscle cleavage?? I'll take any cleavage I can get and I'm willing to work for it! Can you really make yourself fill out that much more? Great stuff about the 70s- anyone got a time machine??

Anarch I am definitely anything but kind to myself, and I want to fix that and first fix the feeling I have that I deserve to feel bad about myself for whatever reason. Do you ever wonder if deep down inside you are a bad person? I wonder that about myself sometimes and think maybe I just deserve to not like myself. I want to be a better person to everyone in my life, and maybe then I'll feel better about myself.

Thanks for joining us SecretSights88, I can tell already that you have so much positivity to offer! We can never get enough of that!

[strongirl]

It is like we are forming a circle around Buttercups, all holding up mirrors to show her as she really is, to herself.

Sorry to repeat myself but:

"Buttercups, I am also struck by the contrast between the way you see yourself (deformity???!!!) and the way your past lover described you in that recent conversation - as a "work of art". There is a vast distance between those two points of view! And I'd love to see you scootch your butt over to his side, for I'm sure it is much more in line with reality."

Think about it. Plenty of women would weep with joy to have a lover say that about them. You gave that guy a gift by sharing your body with him, a gift he deeply appreciated obviously. Now he's given you back a gift - he is holding a metaphoric mirror up to you too. The least you can do is look into it with gratitude.

Karategrrl - too bad we can't work out together. You don't sound full of yourself and I can relate to your frustration. I think one of the reasons women think of surgery before things they can do that are under their control is that we are conditioned to become passive and disempowered - men (surgeons) have the power to change things (our bodies) but we do not - that is the mindset. Old school feminist analysis there but I think it has some validity.

[karategrrl]

Secretsight88, I’m so glad you de-lurked. My my, we’re going to have a good time. OMG grrl, I could have written your 5-point list myself! Holy crap, you hit the nail on the head.

“Looking at implant photos, my dominant reaction is to think how much better most of the women would look if they'd lost weight, gained muscle tone, and improved their posture as opposed to getting implants. I know that too is somewhat judgmental, but since I value strength and health and many of these women do not look strong or healthy, that is how I react.”

I have to agree, strongirl. I can say from my own personal experience that I have really modified my body by doing just that, and I really like the way I look so much more than I did 20 years ago. I work out my upper body well, and I have to say it has done so much for shaping my chest. Like, I actually have cleavage—the muscle kind. I think many women are looking to fill out or shape their upper bodies, but don’t realize they can achieve all or much of the look they want through their own effort rather than by surgery. (And it’s comparatively low-cost, risk-free, healthy and feels great!) My point is not to sound all full of myself, but that I get so frustrated hearing women talk like their only option is surgery. Gad.
…now if I could make my lower body look as toned as my upper body…working on it…

Buttercups, have to agree with anarch about you seeing beauty more easily in others than yourself. But I think that’s a good start. Remember, those older folks are calling you beautiful. Listen to them. <hugs.>

[anarch]

Brown eyes here too. I've never been wild about having them. However, they probably do help a lot for making pathetic puppy dog faces (which I use regularly to torture my spouse).

Loving reading everybody's comments on aging. Especially yours, buttercups. I have to say, I find it ironic that you champion this aging issue so well, and at the same time are so very hard on your own (what you see as a complete lack of) beauty. There's that saying about being as kind to yourself as you are to your friends...

secretsights88, thanks for contributing your excellent words.

[KeraBear]

[b]> Not that my own feelings don’t have weight in and of themselves, but to have other women like you guys say, “Yeah, I know!” really goes a long way toward helping me feel like LESS of an alien!

Yeah, I know!

Welcome, SecretSights88! Yeah, I think for the most part this place has got it right. I've tried teen forums in the past to deal with my feelings, but I think the problem with those places are... well, there are too many teens, ha ha. As far as small breasts go, most of the time the responses are "awwww, don't worry. You are still young. You have plenty of time to grow!" (well what if they don't? And isn't that treating it like it is a problem?) OR they would try to make you feel better by saying, "Hey, be happy you don't have big boobs. They are saggy and ugly!" (but then in effort to make someone feel better, they are making other girls feel bad about themselves. That is no good either!) Teens would seriously benefit from this place, and the thoughts of people with, actual life experience...but of course then there would be way more drama, too... I know I was pretty dramatic when I first came here! LOL

About Buttercups eyes - I am also pushing the "like" button. Remember that with great power comes great responsibility!

[strongirl]

secretsights88, you sound totally cool! Welcome and I'm glad you de-lurked!

"They have brainwashed even the best of us, them fuckers." LMAO - excellent line and very true!

Looking at implant photos, my dominant reaction is to think how much better most of the women would look if they'd lost weight, gained muscle tone, and improved their posture as opposed to getting implants. I know that too is somewhat judgmental, but since I value strength and health and many of these women do not look strong or healthy, that is how I react.

I'm in the big brown eyes club too - and boy, have I ever found them to be an advantage in life. When I was growing up, my mother used to have to look away when she was reprimanding me - she always found it impossible to say mean things to me when she was looking into my eyes.