[starship]

Ok, I'll ignore the big fat elephant in the room and just add my quick 2cents on a few other comments before bed...

but i just wanted to say I have always wished for a smaller size- like a nice full B cup or small C

Thats all I've wished for too honey.

ETA: I forgot about this Ignoble winner: the Emergency Bra!
[/color]

Lol, I'd probably feel safer keeping one of my bigger busted friends to hand in case of emergency. My cups would barely cover my nose and mouth

Also, I miss dj-bizmonkey. Anybody know where she went?

Wow, me too! You just reminded me of her awesome posts. I hope she is just busy and comes back some time.

For over 5 years I've been married to a man I met through this very forum.

Not boob-related but I didn't know this and just wanted to say how awesome I think it is:)

Also today I helped a woman in a store find some 28aa bras for her 12 year old daughter and shared a brief conversation with her about how we hate being 'taken over' by young girls. Not in a bitter way, we just joked about it a bit and shared a few quick stories. She was probably old enough to be my mum too but we still had the same body-issues and were able to laugh about them together. I felt like I'd met one of you guys in real life

Oh and after reading a link from here a few weeks back I bought a bra in a 32b instead of 34a and it fits! I was pathetically excited to be buying a B-cup bra. Although this was a particular bra that I'd bought before in a 34a and I knew it fitted me in that size (I'm not a real 34a!). Anyway, the link was correct and it does fit me a lot better and 'moves around' a lot less than the 34a version I'd been wearing.

Night all x

[starship]

I'm half way through catching up (woah a lot happened the last 2 days) and just got to this....

For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room.

Excuse me but you do not have breasts. period. How is this comment different from all those I've gotten in the past telling me some random chubby guy on the street/beach has 'bigger boobs than me'. Ugh.
I'm with Buttercups in wondering what your motives are for being here :S. We don't need some booby superman stepping in to save us.

Maybe the rest of the posts will enlighten me. *Gets back to her catch up sesh*

[just_a_guy]

First off, I'd like to thank roseviolet, karategrrl, Persiflager, anarch, and angie_21 (in reverse post order)

You've given me a lot of food for thought, and I'll probably read your posts a few more times before I digest it all.

I'd also like to point out that I've been posting in this thread (as opposed to others) because I was directed to it through a news paper article forwarded by a female friend (as I said in my first post) and I get email notifications when there is a new post, not because I don't want to engage in discussions in other threads. I'm sure that I have plenty to learn, and plenty to say, about feminism, prop-8, and a plethora of other issues that are probably on here somewhere.

That said, I work two jobs and started posting here smack dab in the middle of Jewish holiday season, so I haven't exactly had a lot of free time to look around.

Angie: you, in particular, made some very valid points, and if you'd be willing to point me toward some online resources via PM I'd love to read up on the topics you suggested, because you're right: It's outside my area of expertise.

You were particularly right about my last post being overly condescending and rude. I hope that you can understand the frustration of what feels like character assassination, against which there is no defense. It doesn't excuse it, but I hope it at least explains it.

I still maintain that I have every right to call myself a BUSTie, not because I filled out a registration form, but because I am honestly trying to contribute something. If I'm failing that's a different issue.

The only reason I mentioned the reverse sexism angle was because of the fact that the "how can women feel comfortable talking about insecurities in front of men" argument has been included in multiple critical responses to my posts.

I DO think that it's ridiculous to say that I can't empathize with the plight of women's self-image issues because mine are not exactly the same, but I've also seen drug addicts get kicked out of AA meetings for not being alcoholics, and literally watched a heroin and a crack addict argue about how stupid the other was without seeing the similarities in their states. Although I do not personally suffer from addictions to any substance I've been to AA, NA, CA, SA, SAA, SLAA, MA, Codependency, Al-Anon, and Al-ATeen meetings and as far as I can see, the underlying issues are pretty much the same across the board. Not suffering the exact same manifestation doesn;t preclude empathy.

The half tongue in cheek comments in my initial post were more intended to be truthful about my personality than to be rude or condescending, and when I say I've tried to talk women out of getting implants perhaps I should have specified that I was trying to convince them to address their insecurities before making a decision to undergo a potentially life-threatening cosmetic procedure.

I don't know how many people have complained about me to other members of the board, but I certainly haven't received those PMs, and they are more than welcome to direct their complaints to me. As far as I know I've received more positive feedback than negative here.

Sometimes I can be an entitled, judgmental, narcissistic, self-indulgent, jack-ass, know-it-all. Although I am intelligent, I am still young. I certainly don't know it all and I am certainly open to hearing other points of view, particularly when they are founded in reason and research. As far as my negative personality traits go, I'm slowly learning to cut my self some slack for not being perfect. Sometimes that comes across as unapologetic.

Still, maybe it's time for me to lurk a little more before I post, or not post at all in this thread if that's the consensus.

ps- karategrrl: after APs post regarding her take on my personality type, my first gut was to contact you and ask if you felt it was accurate. Instead I chose to have a few close friends read it and give me their opinions of how well the shoe fit and contacted AP directly to discuss our differences (partially because they know me much more intimately, and partially because I didn't want to come off as asking you to defend me). I do want to thank you for your honest opinion about me, good and bad.

I'll shut up now.

[roseviolet]

I’m sure he’ll get it. If everyone would feel more comfy with this forum being female-only, maybe it should be specified.

Just a clarification, Karategrrl. Did you mean to say "thread" instead of "forum"? The Bust Lounge is a forum. The small breast support group is a thread within a forum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

For those of you who know me, you will not be surprised to hear that I strongly support the presence of men on Bust. For over 5 years I've been married to a man I met through this very forum. There are some other fantastic guys who have participated on these forums over the years and I'm happy to consider them my friends.

But they behaved differently than how JAG has behaved so far.

I am highly suspicious of guys who show up and post in ONLY the sex threads or the threads that focus on breasts and female genitalia. It makes me wonder how they found Bust in the first place. It makes me wonder why they're sticking around. It makes me wonder if they're incapable of engaging in normal conversations with women about non-sexual topics. Ordinarily, these characters seem stunted to me and pretty clueless about feminism and the female experience. They offer their perspective, but their comments on the perspectives of others seems veiled in condescension. The saddest ones are the guys who *think* they're behaving in a feminist manner, yet continue to fall back on the same patronizing bullshit that AP mentioned earlier. IF THEY ARE SMART, these guys will heed OUR advice (rather than just offering their own), and begin to learn from their experience here. If they aren't, they'll collect up their bruised egos and limp away.

Note: I do not think it takes a tough guy to be accepted here. Far from it. All it takes is a human being who respects the rest of us as fellow human beings. We're a loving group. Sometimes we get spicy. Sometimes we fight. That's because we're all unique individuals and, invariably, we'll disagree from time to time. Yet there is a lot of love and support and mutual respect here. If you can feel some genuine humility and empathy towards the unique experiences of other human beings, you'll be happy here. But if you act like you're The Voice Of Men on this forum, you're going to suffer.

JAG, we share information here. You may give it, but you gotta learn to take it, too. Because, buddy, you've got a lot to learn.


Anarch, thank you so much for finding and posting that quote from AuralPoison. And thank you, AP, for writing it in the first place.

[karategrrl]

WOW, I missed a lot over the weekend!

A few points:

1. Movies:
Saw the new Resident Evil over the weekend movie starring my gal, Milla Jovovich. LOVE HER! Okay, the plot wasn't great, and it was retarded to see her and the other people in the movie impeccably makeup-ed while they were supposedly fighting for their lives in apocolyptic conditions. BUT...Milla rocked her booblets sans padding, bra, or apology. Wonderfully refreshing. Magically delicious.

Also saw the classic Bonnie & Clyde for the first time. Faye Dunaway wasn't wearing a bra the whole time. Much nipplage ensued. Hot.

2. Tales from Braless, Mirrorless Land:
Forgive me, but I have C.R.S. (Can’t Remember Shit) and have forgotten the screen name of the anthropologist who went braless on her recent jaunt. TELL! DO TELL!!! We want to know and be inspired!!

3. Okay, on to the hot topic:
While I have not personally liked everything JAG has said (and yes, at times some things he's said seemed to me to hint at the wordiness or the "look at me, I'm so sensitive") this is a forum of discussion. No one told JAG that he couldn't post here or asked him to leave, so he hasn't.

With MORE than a little bit of reservation, I emailed JAG off-board a couple weeks ago and asked for his take on a "guy thing." It was off-topic, so I did so off-board. (Like it or not, I’m married to a guy-guy who doesn’t have much of a talent for words, and in trying to understand some male behavior, I’m really at a loss. Yes, if I were single, I’d say "fuck it"and just not give the time of day to any guy-guy. But I’m married, so I have to give this some effort.) Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, JAG provided some perspective. No, I did not agree with or like all he had to say, but in his response were threads of useful info that really do help me "get" my hubby. JAG did not volunteer--I asked. It was helpful to me.

That said, honestly I, too, feel a little weird having a guy here—sometimes I just want to be with you girls. And yes, I’ve often questioned JAG’s motives and presence here, and the frequency and length of posts lately.

I’ve been a member here for 3 years, I think. I really enjoy reading everyone’s posts, and though I may not agree with them all, I respect them and relish the chance to just hear and understand others’ views here. We’ve had some interesting folks come in and out—male (remember Smoove-B, anyone??!!) and female (and yes, I also miss dj-biz monkey, who I think is crazy busy with school). I hope my posts have been useful or at least as thought-provoking as all of yours have been to me.

My personal feelings about JAG are mixed, but if I’m getting this right, what I’m seeing with the majority of regulars here is that they feel uncomfortable with JAG, and that the discomfort is increasing. Majority rules. If you don’t want him here or would prefer that he just lurk, just say so. I’m sure he’ll get it. If everyone would feel more comfy with this forum being female-only, maybe it should be specified.

[Persiflager]

I second all the wise and thoughtful posts below.

Just_a_guy, you have as much right to post here as I do, in that neither of us is a woman with small breasts. This is not a 'body issues' support thread. Much as we might sympathise and indeed empathise with the sentiments posted here, we do not and cannot understand exactly what it is to be a woman with small breasts. Our viewpoints and experiences are not sought and, while they may be useful, are unlikely to be the most important ones here. Get over it.

Oh, and while I thank you for your thoughtful comment about how metaphors can be confusing, I must point out that they are on the curriculum for nine-year-olds, and therefore we've all had a few years to grapple with their complexity. Admittedly that's in the UK so your experience might be different, but I think it's safe to assume that the teenagers and adult women of this board will somehow struggle through.

ETA: Apologies for snark. I bow to karategrrl's calm tolerance.

[anarch]

Some of your comments, just_a_guy, struck me as probably helpful to some. Others grated. In fact, they fit so strongly with an analysis of auralpoison's from last year that I went looking for her comment:

Look, it's like this: 98.4% of men who start posting here immediately go into the breast threads or the sex threads. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. They can't turn the cock off for a half an hour to peruse the forums for something non-physical/sexual they might be interested in talking about. They don't post about the latest book they read, they don't post any good vegan recipes, they don't post about third wave feminism, they don't post about what they think of California upholding Prop 8, they don't post about volunteer work, they don't post angst about their jobs, they don't post angst about their familes, etc. Oh, no, they boldly offer us the male persepective on our bits because that's the *most common sense* place to start addressing women that by & large align themselves with the dreaded "F word". "Tits. They're hella feminist! Let's talk about yours!"

Then, if their schtick isn't vulgar, crass or purely retarded, it's the nice/mega-cheesy guy routine: All breasts are great, guys love 'em big or small, they individually prefer smaller & are proud of it, they share an anecdote wherein they felt they were being judged by their appearance & how they dealt with it, again all breasts are great, & we should love our bodies, ourselves. . . .

But it often comes back to the same thing with many men, doesn't it? That breast are for adornment, for nabbing Mr. Right, female completion through male validation. They frequently don't know about/consider the variety of things that vex us about our mammaries, like buying a swimsuit, inverted nipples, menstrual breast aches, marked unevenness, fibroids, breast feeding, jogger's nipples, etc. Men don't empathize with the OTHER issues of having breasts because they don't have them, hence they can only expound about what they actually know: they are fun to look at & play with & they're happy as clams when they get to.

As far as rules/stickies go, Geoff, . . . Common Sense. I realize this is the intarwebs & all, but you basically introduced yourself to a party full of FEMINIST women, proceeded to step into a conversation about something fairly personal, & offered your not too terribly useful insight. It wasn't offensive, just inappropriate. You didn't give a host a hug, you didn't stop by the kitchen, you didn't grab a drink, you had no idle chitchat about the latest summer blockbuster . . .

Also, the comments auralpoison and Angie singled out as problems are ones that bothered me too, for the same reasons. (Welcome back, Angie! I was just thinking to myself the other day, "Isn't Angie due back in the Lounge by now?")

Especially the way you assume that the only reason some might take exception to some of your comments, is that you're not a woman. Persiflager said in last year's conversation about Geoff that there are men who participate in the Lounge in various threads, who've lurked here long enough to get a feel for how this place works and their interest in the Lounge is well-rounded, not restricted to sex or boob threads, and "they fit in well here." It's true. I think you mean well. There are other reasons for considering some (not all) of your comments objectionable. If you listen more instead of jumping to conclusions like "it's because I'm not a woman," you might understand what they are.

I couldn't find half the stuff I was looking for in the archives of this thread, but seriously, you may find reading the old posts instructive.

Also, I miss dj-bizmonkey. Anybody know where she went?

[buttercups]

Ahh gotta run to bed but I just wanted to pop in and say how much I love my Bustie gals!

Thanks for having my back you all rock!

<3
buttercups

[nbdx0645]

this? freaking hawt. glad to see you back, angie!

Quoted for truth. Welcome back from your trip. It sounds that you were completely in-tune with your body while you were gone. I love that feeling.

I'm also glad that Angie addressed this comment before me: "For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room." No you don't. That remark is flippant and demeans the personal struggles of every girl here." I'm a woman who, in college, could describe her breasts as 'nipples on a ribcage.' I was told that my male friend has better-looking breasts than me, and I posted the story on this forum recently. That's the most hurtful sentence I've ever seen in this thread. I think that sentence deserves a big FUCK YOU.

I also wish that buttercups' post would have given you more perspective on our feelings. Dismissing that post with little regard was one of the worst things you could have done to such a thoughtful and sensitive individual.

And AP, I agree with everything you're saying. I take no offense; I'm happy you came into the thread. I wish I would have said something sooner. =/

[auralpoison]

Uh, just so you know, Angie, TPTB chose to take away the TIO thread with absolutely zero explanation. They giveth, yadda yadda yadda.

Glad you're back though & cannot wait to hear tales of your journey!

I would like to take a moment to apologize to any *legit* Busties if I have offended you & also for the further derail. I just couldn't let what I view as a pervy, fetishistic, 135lb gorilla in the room go without further comment, especially after I have been in communication with no less than eight Busties that aren't crazy about J_A_G or his brand of BS.

I'd like to think most of you know me pretty well, I'm old school & I put it out there 100% come hell or high water. And as a busty Bustie, I don't come in here a lot, but when I do I behave respectfully & bring some food for thought. I usually have a link to share that is on topic & I'd like to think contributes to the conversation at hand. I do not/did not come in here just to stir the turd. I wish to make that plain.

But statements like this?

I've been trying to talk female acquaintances out of getting implants since I was 14 (I've only failed once) and, while I used to joke that I ran "a non-profit organization dedicated to preventing the extinction of the small-breasted American female" (and that we pursued our mission through offerings of small breast appreciation seminars and one-on-one hands on workshops) the truth is that I honestly care.

Yeah, do not bode well in male contributors. I do not like the idea that some guy walked in here patting himself on the back for talking "female acquaintances" out of getting implants as though those women didn't know their own bodies, minds & hearts & needed male input to make the right choice for themselves. It's J_A_G's numerous similar statements that just scream entitled MWET/sneaky whimpster to me & it makes me question his motivations for being here. Like, he's not here to be helpful, he's here because he has a thing for smart, funny, lovely women with small busts & now has a captive audience of them for his meandering, faux-sensitive, psycho-babble fap fap fapping.

ETA: I forgot about this Ignoble winner: the Emergency Bra!

[angie_21]

I have mountains of homework to do, but I'm all riled up! As usual. Buttercups and Syb, you're not stepping on anyone's toes or being at all pushy or offensive. I am so glad you are speaking up for your thoughts. I still haven't had the chance to read back thru much of the past few months conversations, and maybe I'm going to be judging JAG a bit harshly based on his rude comments to nbdx and his dismissiveness or your post, buttercups, but I am a little taken aback that he feels he can talk like that on this board and not get a bad reaction?

JAG, your attitude in both of those posts is not the best way to get women to want to talk to you. We've run into problems with men coming onto this message board with what they think are innocent or good intentions before. We're sick of men telling us what they do or don't find attractive. We're defensive about it. If you haven't studied the feminist/anthropological concepts of male privilege and safe spaces, please go do some research. Buttercup's statement to you was polite, heartfelt, and really important to her, and you pretty much dismissed it out of hand based on the assumption that just because some women were comfortable with you here, means we all should be. I don't know what your own personal issues are, but if you do have issues or you own, you should be here to share them, not to talk about our issues and pass out benevolent advice from your perspective as a man. I don't want to be picking a fight in any way, and if you feel the following comments are unfair, please lets take it outside. But I feel the need to stand up for my homegirls. And I want to point out to you some of your comments that reveal your feelings of entitlement and male privilege, hoping you can see why they are inappropriate for this board and why comments like that make some of us uncomfortable with anything else you have to say, no matter how insightful:

"For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room." No you don't. That remark is flippant and demeans the personal struggles of every girl here.
"I joined in the conversation because I thought I could add something to it. So far the only reason anyone has suggested that this is impossible is that I'm not a woman." On no, reverse sexism! Except that's not what buttercups said. She said the style and content of your comments sometimes make her uncomfortable. From my own point of view, on a message board where we're trying to discuss body issues and how we react to male objectification, having a guy come in and express what he finds physically attractive can be a bit counterproductive. If you can't respect the fact that we're going to react that way, then you need to step back and figure out why you're here. To join in and "add something," or to get something for yourself no matter how we feel about it?
"Yes I think I add more to BUST than I take away, and I take offense to being excluded in your use of the phrase "any BUSTie." I'm a BUSTie too. Look, it says so right under my avatar." Dude, George Bush could sign up for an account and it would say Bustie under his name. It wouldn't make him one. Again, flippant and dismissive.
"If you actually want clarification of something I've written in the future, I would ask that you ask for it respectfully, without the sarcastic undertones that there is no explanation. I would certainly offer you the same respect." don't say that when you're being snarky yourself. It's disingenuous.

If you'd like to talk anthropology, or continue this discussion, pm me any time, or we can go to the take it outside thread.

[enfermera]

this? freaking hawt. glad to see you back, angie!

Guy's writing made sense to me, it's a common argument I've heard many times before, but it's been rejected within anthropological thought for decades already. Evolutionary psychology is pop-psycho-babble at its finest. Take vast generalizations about what men do and what women do, try to explain them in terms of "survival" without any analogy to primate behaviour or any statistical verification of these supposed male/female behaviours, and publish a book about it. It's men are from mars, women are from venus, with a pseudo-scientific veneer. No real anthropologist I know even bothers to talk about these theories except for drunken discussions at the bar. Most evolutionary psychology actually assumes that humans act completely different from their closest primate relatives, but still explains our behaviour in terms of biology and evolution. Female chimpanzees are generally promiscuous and don't even rely on males to care for their young. That kind of messes up a lot of those theories right there, doesn't it? Evolutionary psychology also assumes that modern, western cultures represent all human behaviour and that our gender roles and child-rearing strategies are universal. Wrong again, monogamous child-rearing isn't always a factor in mate selection, women generally do care about appearance but just often don't have the social/cultural power to be able to make decisions based on those preferences. It's cultural, not biological. If we want to go with one of the more blatant vast generalizations, why not say that women have to seek men with power because it's usually been taken away from us on a personal level, instead of blaming it on "instinct?" We can argue about this crap all day, but because it's not based on anything other than generalization and bastardization of the concept of evolution, anything we discuss is irrelevant.

[buttercups]

Thanks so much Syb, that is exactly what I was trying to say!

JAG you may have other insecurities but they are not identical to what we experience here and I still don't understand how women with small breasts directly impacts you since you are not a woman with small breasts. I wouldn't join a support group for men with small dicks, because even if I dated someone with a small penis or whatnot I would not feel right joining in on group because a small penis is not something I know anything about dealing with, regardless of who else in my life has one. Maybe a small penis support group or something like that might be a more appropriate arena for you?

[sybarite]

Welcome back angie!! And thanks for the awesome post; I have always had a problem with the evolution-based rationale for the differences between men and women but you explained why far better than I could.

Just a guy, you may recognise the impact of widely circulated stereotypical body images, but you cannot identify with the women here because to put it simply, you have not been in the shoes of a woman who has small breasts, as buttercups observed. You may know people who have had some of the experiences discussed on this thread and you may well have strong views on this, but you have not had these experiences yourself. We all have insecurities about out bodies, but I have to disagree that yours are the *same* as those of the women here.

This thread has a specific purpose and from the frequency and content of your posts I have to say I feel you are trying to make it all about you and your views.

Not a regular here, so ladies if I'm overstepping let me know.

[melis19750]

this may not mean much,
but i just wanted to say I have always wished for a smaller size- like a nice full B cup or small C

being a D-cup is honestly a pain in the rear!

its hard to find tops, shirts that fit you well without trying to show "too much"
and its a pain with exercise...etc: esp cardio because no matter what kind of supportive bras you wear-they bounce everywhere

I say if you have smaller breasts be HAPPY about it
because being BIG BUSTED naturally is not all what its cracked up to be

[just_a_guy]

Sorry I don't mean to be rude or start anything or anything like that, but I've really not enjoyed posting on this board since you started posting J-A-G. I don't understand why a man would be so interested in a small-breast support group and something about it has really irked me. I understand that several other women on here have appreciated your perspectives and everything like that, but I don't really come on here posting to really need validation from a man telling me that "small breasts are sexy" or whatever. I'm trying to phrase this as politely as possible because I am a very non-confrontational person, but why do you feel so interested in this topic? This is a bunch of women here to share their insecurities and experiences.

Of course I'm not saying you can't post here or anything because who am I to make that decision, especially if the other ladies are getting something out of it. But I feel like you are constantly trying to appease us and "get in" with us and I am unclear about why. I hate rocking the boat but something about it just makes me feel really weird. I really enjoy getting support from other women and that's not to say I can't appreciate a nice comment from a man from time to time, but sometimes I come here to escape that man's perspective and get some good solid advice from women who are living through this with me. Unless you have small breasts, there is only so much you can say about the topic.

Hope I am not offending anyone I just see this board turning into something else and didn't want to speak up about it before.

For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room.

If you read my last few posts it's pretty clear that I'm not trying to appease anyone. The very idea that I have to appease or "Get in with" the group suggests that I am excluded from it, I'm not. I'm here because body image issues have negatively affected my life both directly and through friends and family. I see this issue as one of the most prevalent amongst the women in my life. Despite the fact that my insecurities are about other areas of my body, they aren't any different from your own.

I didn't get here accidentally, the link was forwarded to me by a female friend who understands why this issue matters so much to me, and I joined in the conversation because I thought I could add something to it. So far the only reason anyone has suggested that this is impossible is that I'm not a woman.

Hey angie, nice to meet you. What type of anthropologist are you? I ask both because I am interested and because I want to get the opinion of a friend of mine who's currently getting her PhD in biological anthropology at Cambridge, and in the past she has flung books at my head when I asked her questions that fall more in the realm of social anthropology (she takes a little bit of pride in her field ). Luckily she is too far for book flinging at the moment, but she could probably give my computer a really nasty virus if she wanted.

[buttercups]

Sorry I don't mean to be rude or start anything or anything like that, but I've really not enjoyed posting on this board since you started posting J-A-G. I don't understand why a man would be so interested in a small-breast support group and something about it has really irked me. I understand that several other women on here have appreciated your perspectives and everything like that, but I don't really come on here posting to really need validation from a man telling me that "small breasts are sexy" or whatever. I'm trying to phrase this as politely as possible because I am a very non-confrontational person, but why do you feel so interested in this topic? This is a bunch of women here to share their insecurities and experiences.

Of course I'm not saying you can't post here or anything because who am I to make that decision, especially if the other ladies are getting something out of it. But I feel like you are constantly trying to appease us and "get in" with us and I am unclear about why. I hate rocking the boat but something about it just makes me feel really weird. I really enjoy getting support from other women and that's not to say I can't appreciate a nice comment from a man from time to time, but sometimes I come here to escape that man's perspective and get some good solid advice from women who are living through this with me. Unless you have small breasts, there is only so much you can say about the topic.

Hope I am not offending anyone I just see this board turning into something else and didn't want to speak up about it before.

[angie_21]

Hi girls! I'm back! and just in time! Anthropologist in the house! Give me a moment to collect my thoughts on all this and I will be ready to discuss evolutionary psycho-babble all day.

I had an awesome time in the field. No mirrors, no showers, just good honest physical work and good friends. I spent the whole time judging myself not on how I look, but on how much I could lift and how far I could carry it, and how much I could work without complaining. As a side-project, I tried evaluating how I felt about my appearance based on how people around me reacted to me and looked at me, rather than looking at myself (since there were no mirrors) and it turns out, I think I must be pretty hot, small breasts or no.

Guy's writing made sense to me, it's a common argument I've heard many times before, but it's been rejected within anthropological thought for decades already. Evolutionary psychology is pop-psycho-babble at its finest. Take vast generalizations about what men do and what women do, try to explain them in terms of "survival" without any analogy to primate behaviour or any statistical verification of these supposed male/female behaviours, and publish a book about it. It's men are from mars, women are from venus, with a pseudo-scientific veneer. No real anthropologist I know even bothers to talk about these theories except for drunken discussions at the bar. Most evolutionary psychology actually assumes that humans act completely different from their closest primate relatives, but still explains our behaviour in terms of biology and evolution. Female chimpanzees are generally promiscuous and don't even rely on males to care for their young. That kind of messes up a lot of those theories right there, doesn't it? Evolutionary psychology also assumes that modern, western cultures represent all human behaviour and that our gender roles and child-rearing strategies are universal. Wrong again, monogamous child-rearing isn't always a factor in mate selection, women generally do care about appearance but just often don't have the social/cultural power to be able to make decisions based on those preferences. It's cultural, not biological. If we want to go with one of the more blatant vast generalizations, why not say that women have to seek men with power because it's usually been taken away from us on a personal level, instead of blaming it on "instinct?" We can argue about this crap all day, but because it's not based on anything other than generalization and bastardization of the concept of evolution, anything we discuss is irrelevant.

Sorry. this stuff pisses me off. I'm all excited to be back here with my girls, and this is what's going on with our message board? bah. I still have to read through everything I missed on this board over the summer! I'll come back with some stories from the field in a bit, I had a great time and let me tell u, it sure has made me change the way I see myself and my body, as the field always does. Missed you all and was thinking of you when I went all summer in my un-padded sports bras and un-padded bikini, and didn't feel self-conscious once!

[just_a_guy]

I was giving you a chance to explain your abstract. Any BUSTie would have broken down the main points in the argument for me. I did not understand what you were trying to say. I didn't want to come forward and say that your backpedaling on topics coincides with AP's post. I wanted to hear the essence of your point of view, since it sounded like pseudo-intellectual babble. Your long-winded response to SG's article is a thinly-veiled attempt to save face when most of your 'tidbits of wisdom' were debunked or countered.

What the hell does "Women prefer evolutionary poker, and men prefer evolutionary blackjack" even mean? It sounds like I really need to understand this glittering generality.

The main essence of this thread is getting terribly derailed. Do you honestly think that women are feeling comfortable enough to talk about their deep insecurities when you're in a constant state of defending your image? Do you honestly think that you are giving more to BUST than taking?

Edit: I read through your shitty post several times. I read it out loud. I asked a friend to decode it. I did my best to find meaning and I couldn't find much. I also read through the Newsweek article. It was fab. You're an engineer? You should be a politician. You say so much while saying nothing at all.

As I said, when I responded to you initially. I wasn't trying to pick on you, the context of replacing my quote with <a bunch of words> simply reminded me of the blog post I had just written. In fact I've never said a negative word about you as far as I know.

I will do my best to answer your questions/address your points:

1) Yes, this is a significant side tangent from the main topic of the thread.

2) I didn't understand that you were having trouble understanding my post, your post read as if you simply didn't want to read it the entire way through.

3) Sometimes I speak in metaphors and that can be confusing, I understand that and will try to clarify my point below.

4) I don't know when women do or do not feel comfortable enough to share their insecurities, but I know that quite a few of the women on this board have share theirs with me, and thanked me for my input. I have always tried to make people feel secure.

5) I don't think I'm trying to defend my image. I saw a situation where I thought that a general hypothesis was being thrown out on the basis of one logical fallacy, and I wanted to point that out.

6) Yes I think I add more to BUST than I take away, and I take offense to being excluded in your use of the phrase "any BUSTie." I'm a BUSTie too. Look, it says so right under my avatar.

7) AP seems to have a personal problem with me and I've contacted her about it through PM since it has no place in this or any other thread.

8) I am not a practicing engineer. I hold degrees in Biomedical-Electrical Engineering and a Master's in Business. I'm also a photographer, web developer, writer, ordained minister, atheist, etc. I am a lot of things. The Engineering comment was a tongue-in-cheek response to your comment about my bad sentecne structure since engineers have notoriously poor written communication skills.

My response to SG's post was an explanation that I think there is a significant difference between using evolutionary biology to excuse modern behavior and accepting that impulses and low-level subconscious decision making in the sub-cortical parts of our brain have a hard wired component due to thousands of years of those structures developing.

I was explaining that I don't think men rape because they are hard wired to rape, Nor do I think that men are all attracted to the same thing because it's hard wired. I do think that men and women make decisions differently (and have different responses to developmental stimuli) based on the evolutionary selection of specific advantageous brain traits over the past few million years.

In short, men and women arrive at the conclusion that a particular mate is a good choice based on different decision making processes (that are a combination of nature and nurture), and I would hypothesize that the reason there is a larger market for pornography for men than for women has to do with the differences in these processes.

If you consider that back-pedaling, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion on that matter as well as to whether or not my post and or sentence structure is "shitty."

If you actually want clarification of something I've written in the future, I would ask that you ask for it respectfully, without the sarcastic undertones that there is no explanation. I would certainly offer you the same respect.

Oh, and if that makes me a "Whimpster" or a know it all (which clearly only a man can be ), then I guess I'd better go buy some skinny jeans, black eyeliner, and something to induce flaccidity.

To all of you on here who enjoy corresponding with me, I truly enjoy taking part in the conversation. For those of you who don't, I suggest you block me so that you don't have to read my posts.

[nbdx0645]

I was giving you a chance to explain your abstract. Any BUSTie would have broken down the main points in the argument for me. I did not understand what you were trying to say. I didn't want to come forward and say that your backpedaling on topics coincides with AP's post. I wanted to hear the essence of your point of view, since it sounded like pseudo-intellectual babble. Your long-winded response to SG's article is a thinly-veiled attempt to save face when most of your 'tidbits of wisdom' were debunked or countered.

What the hell does "Women prefer evolutionary poker, and men prefer evolutionary blackjack" even mean? It sounds like I really need to understand this glittering generality.

The main essence of this thread is getting terribly derailed. Do you honestly think that women are feeling comfortable enough to talk about their deep insecurities when you're in a constant state of defending your image? Do you honestly think that you are giving more to BUST than taking?

Edit: I read through your shitty post several times. I read it out loud. I asked a friend to decode it. I did my best to find meaning and I couldn't find much. I also read through the Newsweek article. It was fab. You're an engineer? You should be a politician. You say so much while saying nothing at all.