[erinjane]

I'm inclined to agree with Falljackets in terms of the power being inside me. It wouldn't really matter to me if my sets were on a website, or sitting hidden in my room where only I could see them. I like what Zahia said about a sense of empowerment from anything. I feel really empowered being a uni student and at my job but I don't do that for anyone else, it's all for me and my enjoyment. I get that same kind of powerful feeling from modelling...it's not about the people looking at my pictures, but about me and how I feel about myself.

In terms of losing sex appeal...I can't really wrap my head around that because I'm not really sure what that would mean losing. I can't imagine feeling unsexy no matter how I looked or what happens to me. I think I'm really beautiful on the outside, but I feel like a lot of my appeal comes from the inside and my confidence and ambition.

Being that the majority of people who are participating in the industry are women, I feel like whether or not I agree with its moral implications, its important to support making it a safer industry for women to be part of.

This is how I feel about it. Along a similar vein, I feel like a large part of feminism is allowing people to make choices for themselves. We can't pick and choose what choices are 'right' because we don't agree with them sometimes. We can however educate and make sure that the choices are as safe as they can be.

[pixiedust]

That makes sense FJ. I am always mezmerized with pictures of myself, not because I'm vain, but because it is the only real chance to get to see ourselves as other see us.

[falljackets]

absolutely. i took down the website nearly two years ago, but have done four pro photoshoots since then, not to mention the countless ones that i do on my own or with hubby...

maybe i'm just in love with my own image...

[maddy29]

so fj-for you it's more the taking of the pictures, rather than the showing them to others. like, if no one went on your website, you'd still do SOME pictures for your own fun.

[falljackets]

i think that makes total sense, doodle.

people grow and change, so what makes us feel empowered (or any other feeling) is going to change over time.

in fact, it might be the empowerment that allows for the growth and the change.

i'm a much more outgoing and secure person than i was before i did any modeling. and it was something that my ex husband would NEVER have allowed me to do. he would have called me a whore and accused me of sleeping with photographers if it even got that far. and now that i think of it, maybe that's part of why it was so empowering to me.

and i think i can speak sort of on knorl's question "a woman may think she's empowered through her sexuality, but if she were to lose her sex appeal overnight (god forbid) do you think she would still consider herself an empowered woman?":

as i indicated on the derailed thread, the reason i am not modeling right now is because i was involved in a serious auto accident that left me with a broken back. i had to have five vertebrae fused and have a titanium cage put in to replace a vertebra altogether. as such, i have some serious scarring on my back and across the left side of my torso. when it happened, i knew i'd never really be the same, but i think i was thinking more about my livlihood than my sense of empowerment. i didn't think i could model again because who would want a "broken" model with scars across her side and back. but i surely didn't think i was less of a woman because i wasn't going to be able to model again. (or so i thought... i HAVE modeled again since the accident, i just can't do it full-time because it tires me out so much to be on my feet and hold my body in those positions for so long. still, i got a positive response from people who saw the photos, even the ones that clearly show the scarring.)

furthermore, i don't agree with the idea that my power would only rest in the eyes in the interpreter. my power was within me. i don't care what the people who viewed my images felt about me. i felt great about myself and still do because of those pictures. if there was no one to view them, i'd still feel sexy as hell taking them. when i take sexy self-portraits and look at them, i feel just as powerful as when they were done by a pro.

maybe i'm an exception to the rule but i really don't think so.

[pixiedust]

You are right Doodle! You couldn't stay empowered that way forever. I mean eventually age and gravity are going to catch up with you, or you become one of the plastic, unreal "undead" we talked about in the other thread. And I think that goes for anything. The things that have made me feel empowered over the years has changed drastically and often.
When I was in an unhappy marriage where I was getting negative sexual attention, I felt empowered by finding men who were interetsed in me in positive ways. Now that I am in a happy marriage, I am no longer empowered by the attention of other men period, no matter what their motives.

[maddy29]

very true doodle:)

[doodlebug]

Hey all...this is a quick post...I'm sorry I don't have time to be really thoughtful about it...hopefully I'll be back later today!

On the subject of empowerment, though, I do want to add that many forms of empowerment are not meant to be permanently empowering. Often incidents of empowerment are steps on a longer road to healing and self-acceptance. So if a sexual abuse survivor tells me she feels empowered about her body/sexuality by stripping, I certainly don't expect her to feel that way forever, any more than I expect her to always remain "stuck" at a certain point in her healing from the sexual abuse.

I could say the same thing about my own political activism. Whereas there are forms of political activism that used to make me feel really empowered about my own situation (i.e., when I was living in poverty), those activities DON'T make me feel empowered anymore. This happens mainly because I no longer need to feel empowered in relation to that particular thing, whether it's because I'm no longer experiencing it, or because experiencing it no longer disturbs me.

Some things that made us feel empowered when we were younger wouldn't have the same effect on us now; and some things that feel empowering to us now probably won't at some point in our future. That's just part of moving forward through life.

Since sex work exists, I would rather women reach a place where they feel empowered and in control of what they do, rather than disempowered and NOT in control.

I hope this is making sense. Like I said, I'm in a bit of a rush this morning!

[maddy29]

Love this knorl!

"considering sex appeal is subjective, doesnt then her power rest simply in a man (or woman's) interpretation of her appeal? wouldnt then her power only exist if there were another person viewing her from the outside?"

Thanks for saying what I was trying to get at but couldn't! This is exactly what I feel, too. You SOOO SMAAAHT!

Pixie-that has been my experience too, with women I've met briefly who've done stripping or whatever. NOt that I have met too many though...that I know of.

totally agree with zahia's post too-that we must make it a safer industry, somehow.

about decriminalizing prostitution- i feel the same way about the drug war. i think pretty much all drugs should be legal. in some way. especially weed. becasue it's like Prohibition-people still drank, they just did it on the black market. teh gov't has created a HUGE class of criminals with drug addicts and users, and prostitutes. (as well as poor people and non-white people but that's a whole other thread!). i think it's insane that all this money is going to prosecute minor drug offenses and prostitutes (and not their violent pimps), when there is so much actual crime out there that needs money, etc.

i love this thread. it's like doing this huge piece of healing work for me, it's amazing! thanks so much!

[pixiedust]

The is really good insight khorl. It looks like you and I follow a similar thought process. I know for *me* teh sex industry would not be empowering because of the reasons I have mentioned below. I have never really had any friends that were industry, but I was very good friend with a guy who's girl was a nude stripper.(Most around here have to keep 2 articles of clothing on) I only met his So briefly, but I know she was a deeply troubled and unhappy person. They had children together and had broken up for a period. She foisted thier kids on him without a look back because they didn't fit into her world. She was a very emotionally cold person. I always wondered if the coldness didn't come from a desensitization because o fher profession where she was constantly holding herself aloof.

[zahia1996]

That's a good point Knorl. But it made me think...the same could be true of anyone who gets a sense of empowerment just from one thing. A dancer could be in an accident, and end up crippled. A brain surgeon could get Parkinson's disease. I think that the real danger is for anyone to derive a sense of empowerment soley through one avenue.
Sex work, in some form or another, has existed for a very long time, and I can't see anything making it disappear. So whether or not it is empowering, there will always be women who choose to work in it for a variety of reasons. Being that the majority of people who are participating in the industry are women, I feel like whether or not I agree with its moral implications, its important to support making it a safer industry for women to be part of.

[knorl05]

i'm big into philosophy, so i'm gonna interject with this quote, "that which you hold, holds you".. a woman may think she's empowered through her sexuality, but if she were to lose her sex appeal overnight (god forbid) do you think she would still consider herself an empowered woman? and in that sense, considering sex appeal is subjective, doesnt then her power rest simply in a man (or woman's) interpretation of her appeal? wouldnt then her power only exist if there were another person viewing her from the outside? if she isolated herself from society, do you think she would still feel powerful? just questions i've asked myself through the years. at one time i did think i was empowered through my sexuality, but i learned that it was controlling me more than anything. but that was just me. i found it to be a complete distraction with me, that it took my energy and attention away from what made me really feel powerful. so that's why i have the opinions i have, not out of narrow minded judgments of others, just due to my own thoughts about what i've experienced in life.

[knorl05]

maddy: i do agree.

[erinjane]

That's exactly what I was thinking...another 'defining our terms' thing.

[candycane_girl]

I think the problem here is that there are so many different ways to define power. What one person might see has power (ie. the power that strippers seem to hold over men) another might see as just ridiculous. I think it just depends on how everyone views power.

[erinjane]

I agree greenbean. I wouldn't define power exclusively in terms of people like hillary or Condie. I think it comes in many different forms.

I've been sitting around trying to articulate the empowerment I feel but I still haven't come up with the right words.

[greenbean]

Condoleeza Rice. Hillary Clinton. Barbara Boxer.
Damn straight they got power, but we can't all be them.

Yes, prostitution as the 'only' option sucks, and being forced into porn sucks,...
but if a stripper tells me she is empowered by it I believe her.
Power comes in many forms, and personally, I think sexuality is a power.
Same with other forms of entertainment. Take a comedian thats onstage making a
crowd laugh, isnt that a power?
Or a pianist playing a concert that has everyone mesmerized, doesnt she have a power?
A woman (or man) that can captivate a group with sheer body language is a beautiful thing to me.
Intellectuals may dismiss it as having no merit but I disagree.

[erinjane]

Seconded doodle. I don't think I made it clear in my short post but I don't support legalization either, which is why I posted the link. It doesn't help anyone's situation.


(ETA: Someone mentioned they weren't able to read my essay, I accidently left it Friends Only but it's public now. http://celticdaisy.livejournal.com/70773.html#cutid1 For anyone interested. )

[maddy29]

great post doodlebug. you said what i was thinking this morning-it's all nice and good for us, as educated, relatively well-off, free women to talk about posing for our own enjoyment. But like you said, the VAST majority of women in the sex industry are there for survival. and that is sad. that's what i have the problem with.

i hear you about the legalization thing and caseworkers! i never thought of that! instead of bush's whole "get married and get off welfare" it'll be "anyone can be a hooker!!! no more welfare for anyone!" scary thoughts.

girlbomb-LOVE your post about power. it may FEEL powerful, but in the end what is your power? to get some dude to drool over you? is that really power? when women say that, like strippers or whatever, even sexual abuse survivors, i think they are just missing it. i mean yeah, it feels powerful compared to being raped! compared to being objectified by someone else, it feels powerful to get out there and do it yourself. but that's not really power. not real power.

i see it as this false power that men offer to women. (that whole men are powerless when it comes to a beautiful woman-so be a hot woman and you'll have power over men. what a joke!)

this is a great thread. i was thinking last night that we all are pretty passionate people, with strong opinions. when very touchy subjects come up, it's hard to not just react and be defensive. i think it's impressive that we are having a civilized discussion. i realized that i don't need to change anyone's mind, and that i don't really want to. i just want to hear a great discussion, a variety of opinions expressed, and people's personal experiences.

[doodlebug]

Um...just want to clarify...while prostitution is theoretically legal in Canada, practising prostitution is NOT. The Criminal Code prohibits all forms of public communication for the purpose of prostitution, which makes legally engaging in it almost impossible. It does, in theory, place equal legal peril upon johns and pimps, but this has not translated into any real equal justice. Sex workers, who are mostly women, still bear the burden of legal retribution.

I also believe that survival sex - women (and children) engaging in sex for a meal or a safe place to sleep for the night - must be included in the definition of prostitution, even though it is perfectly "legal" (for women, anyway, if not children).

I work in a women's centre. A large number of women who access us are street-involved women, many of whom are involved in the sex trade. In my job, I provide woman-centred information, referral, support, and advocacy to any woman/child who asks for it, including sex workers.

I do NOT support legalization, because I know there are welfare caseworkers who would have no problem telling women: "There's work out there, go get it." I also believe legalization would provide another avenue for the state and private businesses to control and regulate women's bodies, potentially to the detriment of women's health and personal freedom. Legalization also doesn't put an end to women (and children) working illegally, if they don't meet regulatory standards for "legal" prostitution work...such legal divisions could actually drive these women (and children) underground, making it harder for them to access legal protections against abuse and exploitation.

I do support decriminalization. The main reason I support it is because removing prostitution from the criminal justice system would allow for an environment where sex workers could organize, be more independent, and have more guaranteed protections from pimps, abusive clients, abusive police officers, and others. It would also make it much harder for communities and governments to keep their heads in the sand about the resources sex workers need.

I can't really say whether or not sex work is empowering to women, mainly because it's not up to me to determine what is empowering for another woman. I have never engaged in any aspect of sex work, so I have no personal experience to draw from. I have huge issues with the poverty and violence that perpetuates most of the problems related to the sex trade, but I've also heard some sexual abuse survivors say that engaging in sex work (not "just" prostitution, but also activities like stripping or making porn) is the first time in their lives they felt empowered about their bodies and their sexuality, so what can I say to that? I also believe there are cases where legitimate "healing" can be gained by clients of sex workers, and let's face it, while it's often thought that men who hire prostitutes are sad and lonely and/or "creeps," some people just cannot access regular sexual companionship, for many reasons, which may include disability, appearance, or surviving childhood sexual abuse. If it were me, and I were genuinely helping someone on a healing journey, I might end up feeling pretty empowered by it.

I can say that most women (and children) in my community who engage in sex for money are doing so to support themselves and their children first, and their addictions second. Please note that I'm not saying all sex workers are addicts...I'm actually trying to dispel a myth. In most cases where addictions exist, the addictions came about as a way to cope with the lifestyle - the idea that people enter the sex trade in order to support addictions is a misconception...although it is true in some cases. Unfortunately, many people engaged in prostitution do not have the skills to complete a post-secondary education. Most are not the "kind of people" a business owner would even think about hiring - that's the truth. In my community, and probably many communities across Canada, most prostitutes are poor Aboriginal women (and children) who have already experienced some kind of abuse in their lives.

I believe that as long as we do not have economic equality and freedom from violence, sex work cannot really be considered a genuine "choice" for women. While some individual women may be able to choose sex work freely, the reality is that most of those individual women are women of privilege (white, educated, etc.), and they don't represent the majority of those involved in the sex trade. I also think trying to eradicate sex work is a terrible waste of time, energy, and resources, because I don't believe sex work can be eradicated - and in a "utopian" society where women would have free choice, I doubt it would need to be eradicated. I prefer to devote my own time, energy, and resources as a feminist to ensuring that women are safe, supported, in control, and that they are being paid appropriately for their work.