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> What Name For A Violent Act? (triggers Ahoy!)
girlygirlgag
post Oct 23 2007, 03:13 PM
Post #21


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QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 09:22 PM) *
Umm...prolly cause it wasn't directed at anyone in particular but more the general tone in this thread. Also, I didn't say "GirlyGirlGag, I think you are a pro-rape ignoramus who is no feminist." So get down off your high horse and please stop reading into my posts. Kthxbye.



You know what, if you are unable to participate in a discussion without behaving like a petualent child, maybe you shouldn't?

The "tone" of this thread is not anti-feminist, there is no "tone". It is a group of womening expressing opinions and experiences about a very TRICKY subject.


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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 03:11 PM
Post #22


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Thanks Anoushh! I have to say ITA, plus this:
"In fact, I wonder if deep down somewhere he knew exactly what he was doing and decided to go right ahead. "

I wonder that, too. I think I was trying to avoid saying that, but I do wonder.
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anoushh
post Oct 23 2007, 03:06 PM
Post #23


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Well, I do have experience working with survivors of rape and sexual abuse and as most rape is not of the "stranger in the bushes" variety, this is an incredibly common kind of experience.

I don't have the time I'd like to elaborate in any detail, but phobia and culturehandy have pretty much stated my responses.

In my experience getting the victims of the abuse to stop blaming themselves, making excuses, or some such was hard work and took a long time. Inevitably this was in large part because those who had abused them made sure of it.

There's also a temptation to blame yourself for terrible things because in some unconcious way part of you then can say to yourself that you can prevent a terrible thing from happening in the future. Ie, if it was because of something you did you can not do it the next time and you'll be safe.

This is a fallacy of course, but it's one of the ways the psyche tries to protect itself from painful experiences.

Pugs, I think you are having a hard time separating your own experiences from other peoples. It just feels to me like you are reacting very defensively to anything that might call into question your own choices, though if you are comfortable with them you don't need to get defensive about them. I don't feel at all comfortable with the "I deserved to be punished" kind of talk.

I also don't feel comfortable with any kind of language that implies "well, rape is so complicated and it's so tough for the poor guy we don't have to really hold him fully accountable." A lot of people commit sexual abuse and get away with it using this kind of muddied thinking and putting it onto their victims. Remember, if most rapes are the "dragging in the bushes" kind, neither are most rapists the guy in the bushes.

It doesn't matter to me if it's called rape, abuse, or exactly what, as long as it's named something that acknowledges the lack of trust, the huge anger, and the betrayal that are clearly involved in this marriage.

I'm not into BDSM myself--in part b/c my partner is very averse due to some past traumatic experiences, but I have very close friends who are and I"m not at all unfamiliar with the scene. I think, like others, that BDSM is a red herring in this case. There are plenty of people who have very hardcore BDSM relationships out there, and in general it's almost always a case of the more someone is into it the more careful they are about being sure they aren't crossing a line, safeword uttered or no.

There is something wrong when it doesn't even occur to Bob to take a second to say "are you ok?" In fact, I wonder if deep down somewhere he knew exactly what he was doing and decided to go right ahead.

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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 03:05 PM
Post #24


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QUOTE
and phobia, I really don't know how "I thought this was a feminist messageboard" is not supposed to be taken as an insult?


Umm...prolly cause it wasn't directed at anyone in particular but more the general tone in this thread. Also, I didn't say "GirlyGirlGag, I think you are a pro-rape ignoramus who is no feminist." So get down off your high horse and please stop reading into my posts. Kthxbye.
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girlygirlgag
post Oct 23 2007, 02:57 PM
Post #25


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pepper, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I don't think what Bob did was right. I can't label it, I am not Stacey. If she labeled it rape, I would support her decision. If she didn't, I would support it. BUT, I do not think she is without blame in this situation.

I think this couple embarked on a lifestyle and journey that neither of them were prepared for in so many ways. It also seems to me, (please do not take this as "She asked for it") that Stacey has maybe made a hasty decision as to why she WANTS to participate in a lifestyle like this. Is there anything in Stacey's past that she is not confronting and could this be vary bad in the long run with this lifestyle?I believe the same about Bob. I don't think he can distinguish his feelings of anger from those of violent eroticism. That will not work in DD. I really think that a lot of research, communication, and self exploration needs to be done before embarking on DD. You really need to have an "clean bill of health" psychologically when it comes to your sexuality. If there is a past trauma/violent act/rape in your life, I really think you need to really examine why you are interested in DD.



No matter how you slice it, DD is a combo of sex and violence. Practicing by novices can really turn out very ugly. Like it has here.


and phobia, I really don't know how "I thought this was a feminist messageboard" is not supposed to be taken as an insult?


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pepper
post Oct 23 2007, 02:44 PM
Post #26







all these rules ans "should haves" and "a good top does such and such..."
this is what i mean by experience and reading up.
when my partner and i first started to play he left bruises on me that, while i enjoyed them, i wasn't sure were ok for my body, if i had been actually hurt. when i talked to a more experienced friend she cussed me out and sent me home with a list of books to read. i have to say, without them we may have ventured into dangerous territory without meaning too. it's easy to make a mistake when you're dealing with something so unusual. i don't think a degree is neccessary but some degree of knowledge certainly is.
they both fucked up but so long as they are both willing to take responsibility for that and work together to fix it and move on they should be fine.
right now it smarts and they are both in a muddle about it. hello, sex life in the blender, how disconcerting. but not such a trauma after all. i think they can work through it. sounds like they love each other, communicate, have a willingness to grow together.
i agree with what culturehandy has to say about stacy's guilt, that it indicates her trauma.

i can't dedicate the kind of time to this that i want to be able to right now, baby wants me. just wanted to speak for a second though... carry on.
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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 02:39 PM
Post #27


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QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 12:28 PM) *
Phobia, as a rape survivor and a feminist, I find it incredibly insulting and hurtful for you dismiss anyone who is disagreeing with you as pro-rape, ignorant, or not feminist.

Shame on you.


Oh, honestly. Everyone chill for a minute, ok? Let's all take a deep breath. This thread is causing tempers to flare for some reason, and the discussion is getting a little off track.

~breathe....~

Ok.
If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I never called anyone any names. I tried to be careful to state things as my opinion, as how they sounded to me. If that didn't come across, I guess I'll have to try harder in the meantime, but it might be equally possible that people are angrily jumping to conclusions. My points were that some things that are being said are sending up red flags for me -- stuff that sounds an awful lot like "it's not really rape if [she likes it rough, she was drunk, she's your wife, she's a slut, she's a prostitute, etc.]," or "she never said [no, stop, I don't want to, her safeword] so it may not have really been rape." You hear a lot of this kind of thing from people who want to excuse rapists, and I really just wanted to point that out so that maybe people could think about what they were saying and how it sounded.

Because to me, it sounds an awful lot like people are scrambling to excuse Bob's behavior. And I don't see why.

Because my main point, the one I keep coming back to, is that the rough sex, as I've said, is a red herring, and I feel that people are using to muddy what is essentially a very simple situation. Bob forced his wife to have sex with him, and continued to do so after it was clear that she didn't want to. Rough sex does not muddy the waters sufficiently to make this ok. It is not complex. It is not ambiguous. There is not a justification for what happened. (Girly, you're right, there may be ~explanations,~ which aren't the same as ~excuses~.)

It doesn't take a lot of experience with kink or rough sex to stop and check and make sure you aren't hurting your partner.

I'm not trying to make Stacy "label" what happened to her, and I have no dog in the fight to make Bob into a rapist. Really and truly. My big, sort of "meta" concern, is that I want to eradicate this idea that people doing rough or kinky sex are somehow in a place where consent can be muddled or ambiguous, that kinky sex is somehow inherently more likely to lead to rape or other abuses of power. That is just not the case*, and that's why I keep insisting that the kink parts of the story are irrelevant. I also don't like seeing rough or kinky sex used to justify abuse, which I don't think anyone here is doing, but I want to make that clear as well.

Also, Culturehandy -- I really liked your post, and I totally agree with it.




*An argument can be made that this is not the case ~when done responsibly,~ and that the problem here is a lack of responsiblity. But I think that my answer to that is that even beginners, if they're decent people, have the common sense to check in occasionally, and if something seems to be going wrong, most decent people would ask if everything is ok.
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culturehandy
post Oct 23 2007, 12:48 PM
Post #28


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Okay, after much reading and thinking about this,

Rough play is a part of SM play. It doesn't have to be, but it is generally accepted that pain is a part of SM play, it isn't for everyone, but for some it is. We can call this rough sex, SM play or whatever. It was a situation gone bad. Very very bad.

If this was in fact a scene and Bob was the top and Stacy the bottom, a good top reads the bottom and sees what they want or don't want.

The fact that Stacy was crying and didn't say a code word and was clearly in distress should have been a big clue to Bob that something was wrong. If she was taunting him because she was mad, he shouldn't have had sex with her. If she was taunting him because it was a part of play, but he was unsure, Bob should not have continued. I agree, that he should have known, after several years of marriage, that crying during sex equals bad. What person doesn't know this? I don't care if this was during SM paly or not, if it was during SM play, the top should stop and see if the bottom is okay. So, in a case like this, regardless of what you want to call this, Bob should have stopped.

As for getting what they deserve, in a case like this, it's creepy. If you are "playing" and things are consensual, that's different.

I think the reason Stacy is aplogizing, which she absolutely should not have to do, is she is punishing herself. This clearly shows that she has been psychologically damaged by this episode. I truly think that she is apologizing because she feels that if she had simply said something to stop things, and had not taunted him, she feels things would not have transpired as they did. She has constant what if's runnig through her mind. what if I had said stop, what if I had not taunted him, the what ifs are numerous. Stacy should not have to aplogize that she wanted things to stop, no one should be punished for that. If it is in play a good top would understand, but the more I think about this, the more I think that this is not play at all. It may have started out as play, but got way out of control.

For some crying is part of the game. Crying is not part of my SM play, to each their own regarding Sm play. If this was SM play and Stacy had never cried before, Bob (or any top for that matter) should have stopped. If anything occurs outside the realms of pre-determined consent and discussion, the scene must stop. Let's say for example that this was SM play, and Stacy and Bob had decided that this was a mock rape scene (I'm just saying for argument sake), and crying was not part of the scene or was not discussed, Bob should still have stopped, but he didn't. If this wasn't SM play (which, as I said, I don't think it ended up as), crying is never part of a healthy sexual experience. At least not during the act (crying afterwards...if this is something other than tears cause by a good, healthy emotion)..

I agree the moment consent is withdrawn it equals rape, in a case like this, from what I gather, and I am not taking Bob's side here (I think that he continued while his wife was in distress is disgusting) he would say "well, she didn't say anything, therefore consent was not withdrawn". Of course I could be wrong, and I do hope that I am. Rape is rape, whether you are married or not.

SM play or not, call it what you like about the "scene", obvious trauma and distress were visible, and were not supposed to happen in the situation (whether play or not), and that in itself, regardless of situation equated to consent being withdrawn, although not verbally, it was still withdrawn. And what do we call it when consent is withdrawn, or not given for that matter? It's rape.

This couple must must MUST go and speak to someone. If Stacy chooses to stay with Bob or not. If they decide to stay together then they must go to counselling individually and together. This will help them deal with issues they have as a couple and issues that have arisen because of this situation. If They decide to break up, they must also seek counselling, because neither of them will be able to carry on a healthy relationship (with or without SM play, or kink, rough sex, whatever you want to call it) without dealing with this epsiode which has no doubt had an impact on who they are as individuals. Stacy may have trouble being intimat with Bob or any other man for that matter, Bob the same. I wouldn't be surprised if any sort of sexual disfunction comes out of this, brought on by the psychological trauma of this event.


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girlygirlgag
post Oct 23 2007, 10:11 AM
Post #29


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Phobia, as a rape survivor and a feminist, I find it incredibly insulting and hurtful for you dismiss anyone who is disagreeing with you as pro-rape, ignorant, or not feminist.

Shame on you.


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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 23 2007, 10:08 AM
Post #30







QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 12:19 PM) *
There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. Though they have been thru several years of marriage, they have not been thru several years of BDSM, and this is a first BDSM relationship for him. This is a one time incident in a marriage. I highly doubt that Bob is into RAPING his wife.

My take is that this lifestyle was initiated pre-maturely and that both parties have responsibility in what happened. Bob really needs to apologize. What he did was wrong. Was it rape? I don't know, only Stacey can say. Were the lines of appropriateness muddled? ABSOLUTELY. I understand the need for Stacey to label the act, but is a label really going to change what happened and help her move forward?


GGG - this is all that i am saying. you summed it up nicely. thank you!
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 23 2007, 10:07 AM
Post #31







QUOTE
I'm glad you've never been assaulted and can't speak or move or come out with the right words to stop your attacker.


So..everyone who has not been attacked, assaulted, raped...you must leave this conversation because you just don't understand and therefore won't understand that this was RAPE!

QUOTE
Go back and remove any mention of "rough sex" from the initial discussion, and it all becomes very obvious.


But you can't just take out the "rough sex" aspect. That is part of the situation. That is one of the aspects that made it go wrong. You can't take flour out of the recipe and still call the finished product bread. Nothing like this ever happened before when they had vanilla sex. When the rough aspect was brought in that is when something bad happened.

Oh yes, and I'm NOT blaming STACY!!!

You make it sound like two people are having sex and as soon as one says stop (in this case "no") that that is rape. I say no to my partner all the time and he continues because I know that's what I like and that's what I asked him for and that is what he agreed to. If I'm not liking it I say my safeword, but since I've never been raped I don't know what I'm talking about apparently.

QUOTE
As GT has mentioned, you don't need a fucking degree in bondage to know if and when your partner is no longer having a good time. AND HE DIDN'T STOP.


This you are right about. He was angry. She pissed him off. I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU HERE! and he was wrong to begin fucking her out of anger. However, I truely believe that he thought this was what she was desiring. There are women who desire rape scenes. I think he thought she was challenging him and that she wanted to be taken in this manor. he misjudged. But you think this is cause for rape charges? I love my man and if this were him and I, rape would not even cross my mind. BUT AGAIN, i've never been raped and therefore have no idea what i'm talking about.

QUOTE
I really think we could use the input of people who are more knowledgable (and less angry) about issues of domestic violence and rape.


Clearly, then you should also leave the conversation. I should leave because I have no knowledge about domestic violence and rape and you should leave because you are clearly angry about something you don't even have all the facts about. You weren't there. You don't even know either of them. even if stacy herself came on here and told you she loved her husband and forgave him and bob came on here and apolgized to her and you and everyone else who has been raped he'd still be a fucking rapist and should be punished to the furthest extent of the law.

QUOTE
Like, maybe those people can tell me what universe it is where forcing sex on your partner suddenly becomes ambiguous when she likes it rough, and in what universe that isn't victim-blaming.


Who the fuck is blaming stacy? i'm not. i'm not blaming anyone. it's just a fucked up situation that went wrong and they should get help. you just want to blame bob.

QUOTE
I thought this was a feminist message board.


Oh brother dry.gif
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girlygirlgag
post Oct 23 2007, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 03:01 PM) *
I still don't understand how that excuses his behavior, either. His misconceptions should have become moot when it became evident that Stacy was in REAL distress. If he can't tell that she's in REAL distress after "several years" of marraige, the problem is not the safeword or the rough sex. If he didn't CARE that she was in real distress, then Stacy needs to get out of the relationship before something worse happens.



There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. Though they have been thru several years of marriage, they have not been thru several years of BDSM, and this is a first BDSM relationship for him. This is a one time incident in a marriage. I highly doubt that Bob is into RAPING his wife.

My take is that this lifestyle was initiated pre-maturely and that both parties have responsibility in what happened. Bob really needs to apologize. What he did was wrong. Was it rape? I don't know, only Stacey can say. Were the lines of appropriateness muddled? ABSOLUTELY. I understand the need for Stacey to label the act, but is a label really going to change what happened and help her move forward?



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roseviolet
post Oct 23 2007, 09:49 AM
Post #33


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No one is saying that Bob should be 100% let off the hook. No one is saying he is totally innocent. We're saying that it is complicated.
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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 09:42 AM
Post #34


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Pugs, sex with no consent is rape. That is the commonly accepted definition.

I'm glad you've never been assaulted and can't speak or move or come out with the right words to stop your attacker. You need to stop blaming Stacy for this happening, though. The situation is EXTREMELY clear-cut. Seriously, listen to me. Go back and remove any mention of "rough sex" from the initial discussion, and it all becomes very obvious. I'm not reading into this to make Bob seem like a jerk or a rapist. He foced his wife to have sex with him when she clearly, obviously, crying begging peading pushing didn't want him to. HOW IS THIS SO HARD TO FATHOM YOU GUYS?!

QUOTE
when he reacted to what he thought she wanted it went wrong.


BUT HE DIDN'T STOP. He used her lack of saying the safeword as an excuse to do whatever he wanted. No normal, considerate partner would do such a thing, EVEN IF SHE DIDN'T SAY THE SAFEWORD. As GT has mentioned, you don't need a fucking degree in bondage to know if and when your partner is no longer having a good time. AND HE DIDN'T STOP.

I really think we could use the input of people who are more knowledgable (and less angry) about issues of domestic violence and rape.


Like, maybe those people can tell me what universe it is where forcing sex on your partner suddenly becomes ambiguous when she likes it rough, and in what universe that isn't victim-blaming.

I really really really can't get over the fact that some people here really think that liking kinky, rough sex somehow means consent is difficult to ascertain or in any way ambiguous, and that moreover Bob should be completely 100% let off the fucking hook for forcing sex on his wife because she had it coming because she liked rough sex and taunted him. Seriously. I thought this was a feminist message board.
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LoveMyPugs
post Oct 23 2007, 09:31 AM
Post #35







QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 10:58 AM) *
his post-event comments don't make me feel too good about him whatever the case.


*delurking*

phobia - you just want this to be bob raped his wife so badly. i don't understand that. many of you are putting so much focus on what bob said after the incident. i mean you are in a LTR. hasn't your man ever done anything stupid and then said something stupid afterwards? i mean i think this is common with men. they fuck up and then instead of just apologizing they say something stupid. usually it's because they feel guilty and they are ashamed of themselves. hasn't your man ever done this? does your man get on his knees and apologize every time he does something wrong? if he does then you are lucky.

I think bob fucked up and yes he needs to apologize and they need to go talk to someone. i mean jesus christ if stacy feels like she was raped then she needs to leave but i don't get that vibe from what tallgirl is saying. i think she is hurt and needs help. you want a marriage to end because of one very terrible experience. most married couples encounter a big problem like in a relationship and they try to work through it because they love one another.

i don't consider "rough sex" bdsm. IMO corset play, water play, knife play, breath play, suspensions, etc, that is BDSM. that is when a safeword is really needed. that is when things can go very wrong and someone can get really hurt. they just like rough sex. like mr. pug and i. we just like it rough. we don't do anything too intense. i think this is why a safeword isn't as important in our case as is in what gt and you do. so i agree with you that this isn't really about bdsm. but...it is about sex, rough sex to be exact. she thought she liked it rough. she challenged him. they had a stupid safeword. when he reacted to what he thought she wanted it went wrong.

she didn't use her safeword. another thing that just doesn't make sense to me is this who "freezing up" and forgetting your safeword. don't flip out just listen to what i'm saying. it's not like she froze and couldn't speak, scream or cry and just laid there waiting for it to be over. i believe this can happen in a rape situation. however, she was saying no and crying but SHE DIDN'T SAY STOP which is the safeword. So you're telling me that she remembered all the other words but forgot STOP. she could talk and cry but couldn't say STOP. is this what your saying. i mean if you are being "raped" as you are so strongly, forcing it in your posts and you are crying and saying NO then why couldn't you say STOP as well. stop would have come out just as freely as no. I mean did the almighty powers that be just pluck the word stop out of her full vocabulary? come on now.

i agree that rape is wrong and fucking your wife in anger is wrong as well but so is challenging your man like that. she talked shit to him. she belittled him. does no one take into account how she made bob fucking feel? it's fine for her to be upset and hurt but for him he just has to fucking take being talked to like that because he's the supposed "rapist". give me a break.

they BOTH fucked up. THEY BOTH FUCKED UP! they need to go talk to someone, not end their marriage and her press charges. i'm sure he feels like shit and is just ashamed of himself and confused with what happened JUST LIKE SHE IS. he needs to just say he's sorry. In fact, i think they both need to apologize to each other without any BUTS and go get some help while definantly putting the "rough sex" on hold for a long time.

the fact that he said he didn't want to innitiate rough sex anymore says a lot as well. he hurt her and he knows it. he can't read her because she is unclear about what she wants when she says she wants "rough sex". if she doesn't know what she wants or can handle then how the hell is he supposed to know. this is why some of us are stressing the do your research first and talk about it aspect. i was very clear to mr. pug about what i wanted. we talked about it so that he wasn't confused when we did start to play. i'm sure you and your man have done the same thing. communication. whether it's bdsm, regular sex, rough sex. i mean shit if you had a bad experience with doggie style you have to tell your partner before you have sex so he doesn't try to do it and then you get freaked out and cry rape aftewards.

sorry for the rant but i just don't believe that "bob raped his wife" nor do i believe that he should have fucked his wife in anger nor do i think that she should have belittled him the way she did, nor do i believe that she needs to leave him.

*relurking*
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crinoline
post Oct 23 2007, 09:00 AM
Post #36


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I'm sorry, I don't have much to add to the topic. I DO believe that the moment consent is withdrawn, it is no longer sex and becomes pure violence. I do NOT believe that there is ANY circumstance in which a woman "deserves it" ever. (Does anyone remember that case with the cop assaulting the woman who worked as a stripper?) I can see how Bob would get defensive after the incident, but there is no excuse for using fear to control "loved ones", and his comments imply that he intends to do just that.

I came in here to post that I have never heard of MRAs, but they most unfortunately seem to share many of the same views as my willfully ignorant (female!) friend and her boy. I am absolutely horrified that that group exists.


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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 08:44 AM
Post #37


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QUOTE
So maybe he honestly had the impression that BDSM means you can do whatever the hell you want until someone says the safe word. Maybe he honestly and innocently thought that part of the appeal of BDSM for some people is that you get to work out some of your anger on one another. Is that fucked up and dangerous? Hell yes! But nevertheless, a lot of people make these false assumptions. Bob could be one of those people.


I still don't understand how that excuses his behavior, either. His misconceptions should have become moot when it became evident that Stacy was in REAL distress. If he can't tell that she's in REAL distress after "several years" of marraige, the problem is not the safeword or the rough sex. If he didn't CARE that she was in real distress, then Stacy needs to get out of the relationship before something worse happens.
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phobia
post Oct 23 2007, 08:41 AM
Post #38


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QUOTE
It's an extremely complicated situation, not only because of the BDSM element,


See, I just completely disagree with this. The BDSM element is nearly completely irrelevant. I reject the notion that being into kinky sex means you disregard your partner, or that consent is ambiguous. Anyone who thinks that a couple being into kinky or rough sex means that there is no way to tell whether someone was violated or abused is mistaken. Period. If there was no rough sex aspect to this, the situation would have been clear cut -- Bob raped his wife. But since we hear that she likes it rough and that they had some vague notion of a safeword, that somehow the situation is different. I just don't think it is.

But you're right -- we don't know whether Bob is otherwise a manipulative fuck, although his post-event comments don't make me feel too good about him whatever the case.

Maybe someone with a background in DV and/or rape counseling can add more light to this issue. I just think it's much more simple than people are making it out to be, and I might be wrong, but when you re-write the events without any reference to "rough sex," it is extremely clear-cut.
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roseviolet
post Oct 23 2007, 07:38 AM
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Thank you, TallGirl, for the additional information.

That being said, I want to remind everyone that we are hearing only a fragmented version of this story through an alternate source. We have not heard anything directly from Stacy or Bob, which is one of the many reasons why I am hesitant to label this situation. I'm not saying that TallGirl is an unreliable source, but as a 2nd party to the event, she cannot clarify a lot of very important points about this situation.

I also wanted to say many thanks to Greenbean & Octinoxate for delurking. I agree with you that this is a very complex situation. I understand why some of the Busties want to simplify the situation & affix a label to it, but it is not that easy. It's an extremely complicated situation, not only because of the BDSM element, but because of the history of Stacy & Bob's relationship ... a history that is totally unknown to all of us.

I agree that if Bob said those things and said them in the tone that many of you are hearing and if he has refused to apologize, then yes, he's a manipulative, insensitive asshole. And I bet that assholishness has been seen in other ways before. However, his words can be heard a different way. Maybe he was genuinely confused about the BDSM portion of this. As pointed out earlier, they agreed upon a safe word. So maybe he honestly had the impression that BDSM means you can do whatever the hell you want until someone says the safe word. Maybe he honestly and innocently thought that part of the appeal of BDSM for some people is that you get to work out some of your anger on one another. Is that fucked up and dangerous? Hell yes! But nevertheless, a lot of people make these false assumptions. Bob could be one of those people.

I'm glad to hear that Stacey is trying to work through this, but TallGirl, I hope you'll let her know that if she wants to heal her relationship with Bob, he must be involved in this process. And he needs to be willing to apologize as much or more than she has. I think there are some couples out there who have the ability to work through something like this together, but most couples probably need some professional help, too. I know that talking through this together will be extremely difficult at times, but it is the only way. If either of them is unwilling to do that, then I don't know how their relationship can survive. Or at least, I don't see how they can have a stong, healthy relationship again.
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tallgirl
post Oct 23 2007, 06:38 AM
Post #40


BUSTie
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Posts: 74
From: DFW, TX


Wanted to take a moment to quickly reassure Octinoxate - and anybody else who might have a similar concern - that naming what happened is far from Stacy's top priority. She is far more concerned with healing herself and her relationship and deciding what the next steps are for her and Bob. Trying to name it was an initial thought for her - part of her way of dealing - but as the discussion has continued and evolved here, she has moved on to healing in the more important ways.

That is not to say that this kind of conversation is not relevant - I personally think it is. It's just to reassure those with concerns that she's not stuck on this one point, but is moving forward.


--------------------
One day... one day there will be peace in my heart, order in my head, and simple silence all around. I just hope I live to see it.
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