[girlbomb]

Here's an interesting link from Nerve.com, about a woman who gave "erotic massages" (mostly handjobs, though she did shove stuff up some guys' asses) -- she addresses some (but not all) of your questions, thereshegoes.

[thereshegoes]

i don' think i only meant in a bad way---i think there are good ways-the unionizing etc mentioned already, and also i feel that alternative porn has done a lot to diversify what's sexy. of course, the obvious bad way is the lack of media attention given to sex-work underclass in a lot of the alternative press sex worker coverage. and the general obnoxiousness of privilege in any form.

i guess sex work is like marriage, a drag if you are forced into it, but great fun if you choose it.

what i'd be curious to know is why people do choose it---does it make you feel sexy in a way that you didn't before? more confident with the opposite sex? better pay than waitressing? and is partner sex still fun after?

[erinjane]

i wonder if the difference in intention (sex work for basic survival v. sex for as a way to explore taboos) makes the difference in the two classes of workers. if so, are the women in the privileged class affecting the lives/livelihoods of those in the non-privileged class?

You mean in a bad way? Maybe some are, maybe some aren't. I certainly don't think all are because I know a lot of women through the web who are sex workers but who also advocate strongly for changes in social policy and for helping raise awareness for those in the non-privileged class. It's unfortunate that there are also a lot of privileged women who just don't see the connection and feel they have no need to make society aware of what sex work can look like across the board. I think in a sense though, that it is a good thing that there are privileged women who do choose to go into sex work because they are the ones who are more likely to be heard (if they're heard at all) when trying to change the industry.

[thereshegoes]

i'm generally a lurker, but i felt like i needed to throw in my 2 cents.

i don't know if this illustrates what girlbomb was talking about, but i really think it's important to realize there are two very different classes of sex workers (prolly more than 2, but. . .).

when i first came to nyc and worked in academia, i encountered many women who were invovled in sex work (generally doms, models or strippers)---many of them were privileged, white, etc. getting grad degress in creative writing or women's studies, who found the work to be exploratory and exciting, like experimenting with drugs or bisexuality or punk rock. they wrote a lot of papers like the articles in BITCH (i actually know one of the writers). i think of this as the kathleen hanna school of sex work.

when i became a social worker, i experienced a very different kind of sex worker. these women were rarely old enough to buy liquor, were often members of oppressed populations (teen runaways, inscest victims, women of color, drug addicts), and had very abusive pimps (real live m-fing pimps, i met them). i had thought this was an outdated cliche but after working with these women i came to understand that this is the life story of most sex workers in nyc, and they find it laughable that white girls would do such a thing if they didn't have to. they described hooking as violent, unsafe and degrading.

i wonder if the difference in intention (sex work for basic survival v. sex for as a way to explore taboos) makes the difference in the two classes of workers. if so, are the women in the privileged class affecting the lives/livelihoods of those in the non-privileged class?

[lucizoe]

Aha! Mr.Luci found it for me...see what I get for actually cleaning? I lose shit...

My apologies all; I confused my info. The article I was referring to was very specifically talking about the growing numbers of middle class women in sex work...I thought I read something more concrete regarding a larger trend, as indicated by my earlier statement, but in skimming I've been unable to find it. My bad.

There's another article about organizing unions...which was really interesting, but because I clearly suck at communicating this sort of thing online, I think I'll just reiterate: Go buy it! They need the cash!

[sukouyant]

lucizoe, i'm totally on the lookout for the mag too especially seeing as bitch is one of my favourites. it's an issue i feel really passionate about.

Sukoyant, by "involuntary sex work" and "rape-for-money," I'm talking about cases in which underage boys and girls are coerced into the sex trade by older men, who take their money, feed them drugs, and beat them. When they're traded by their moms to their moms' boyfriends, or strangers, for drugs.Child prostitution rings. Cases where women are smuggled into the country and forced to work off their passage in brothels.

Why, what did you think I meant?

Am I saying sex work should be illegal? I think sexual exploitation should be illegal. And I think, as I've said again and again, that sex workers should be protected. As should those who do not choose sex work, but find it chosen for them.

Er, I wasn't certain what you meant that's why I asked you. I know it's tiresome to repeat your fundamental POV - I'm jumping into the discussion and I wasn't sure what it was.

Rape-for-money is a loaded phrase that some people use to encompass all sex work by definition.

Those things that you pointed out Girlbomb, they are illegal already, poorly enforced. Assault... extortion.

[lucizoe]

(I guess I should have clarified what I read: One journalist's experience, in her research for an article about sex work, apparently encountered a higher number of white and middle class women than women of color of any class. I don't know how she set up her interviews, or where she found interviewees, so she very well could have, unwittingly or not, limited her research to exlusively middle class white women. I'm looking for the magazine to clarify, but I have no idea where I put it at the moment).

[girlbomb]

Sukoyant, by "involuntary sex work" and "rape-for-money," I'm talking about cases in which underage boys and girls are coerced into the sex trade by older men, who take their money, feed them drugs, and beat them. When they're traded by their moms to their moms' boyfriends, or strangers, for drugs.Child prostitution rings. Cases where women are smuggled into the country and forced to work off their passage in brothels.

Why, what did you think I meant?

Am I saying sex work should be illegal? I think sexual exploitation should be illegal. And I think, as I've said again and again, that sex workers should be protected. As should those who do not choose sex work, but find it chosen for them.

[sukouyant]

Am I the only one that thinks theres a big difference between porn and prostitution?
My friends and I were talking about this the other day, and while most of us dont mind if our
boyfriends watch porn (and most of us watch as well) we would have a problem if our
boyfriends had paid for sex at some point in their lives. One of my friends claimed her
boyfriend HAD paid for sex long before their relationship, and she was fine with it.
I dont know if I could be. Is that hypocritical of me? I just feel like prostitutes are more
exploited/in more dire straights than your average porn actor, so it would disturb me if a
guy I was with had participated in the exploitation of a woman, yet I dont feel that way
if he viewed porn.
Does that make sense?

Hm is it possible that laws that treat prostitutes as criminals & programs that treat them as victims affects your perception of them? Because porn actors do the same thing, except in front of a camera & maybe they do their jobs for the same reasons that other sex workers do theirs. Come to think of it, the only reason they get treated differently by the law and government funded agencies is because they aren’t seen as a public nuisance the way street prostitutes are.

I'd feel more jealous if my BF was having a relationship with a prostitute than with a porn movie, but it would bother me if none of the porn he looked at looked anything like me or the things we’ve shared & done together.

Someone I’m in love with has paid for it, nothing wrong with that. He’s not afraid to answer my questions about it.

Just got the new BITCH today in the mailbox - all about sex, with a couple of articles about sex workers...mentions a bit about how the women for whom sex work is a free will choice are overwhelmingly white and middle class...

anywho, just wanted to give a heads-up if anyone was interested...go buy it

this seems like a weird double-edged statement. is it calling people who say "no woman would ever really choose this" liars, or is it one of those self-selecting samples that really says "women who report to bitch magazine journalists are mostly white middle class women"? Has anybody else had a chance to read it yet?

You know, rereading the Foriegn Fuck and Empower links Snafooey posted and rantrave refers to, I think it's great that some people choose to do sex work, and I'm delighted they're happy with it. I'm certainly not trying to stop anybody from doing it safely or profitably; my goals are their goals in that respect. At the same time, these sex workers do the same thing they accuse anti-prostitution activists of doing -- they assume their experiences are the only ones that matter. In my experience, knowing both voluntary and involuntary sex workers, I'm inclined to believe that there is a *huge* fucking human trafficking and rape-for-money problem, and it's not my goddamn xenophobia talking, because the shit is happening right here in New York.

Hey, if you want to do sex work, do sex work! But don't assume everyone else in your line of work does.

No the work isn’t for everybody. Girlbomb, what do you mean by involuntary sexwork and rape-for-money? Are you saying sex work should be illegal, because of the kind of exploitation you’ve seen?

so long as there are people willing to sell their ass, or a glimpse of it, to strangers for cash there will be others willing to sell some other, unwilling person's ass for less money.

it's been said here recently that i ain't gonna go nowhere any time soon, there has to be a move towards making it legit and safe. i have to agree with that, no matter how i feel about it as a whole. it has to get cleaned up as it is before anything else happens. light one candle instead of cursing the darkness kinda thing, ye know.

I agree. And it would be cool if feminists saw sex work in its different forms and the conditions surrounding it as labour issues.

prohibitionists puzzle me. there seems to be this viscous paternalism that cloaks other problems that they have with sex work. when work conditions are oppressive, since when does it make sense to ban the occupation? if whore stigma didn’t exist maybe more feminists would be listening to and working with sex workers and fighting alongside for the things that would make work safer and easier.

it seems to me like feminists who want to dismantle and control (without consultation!) sex work are saying to other women "we fight for the rights of all women to have choices, but some women are like men and need to tell other women what to do for their own good."

[lucizoe]

(Nope...cover is sultry red with lip-shaped lifesavers candy or some-such...)

[erinjane]

Just got the new BITCH today in the mailbox - all about sex, with a couple of articles about sex workers...mentions a bit about how the women for whom sex work is a free will choice are overwhelmingly white and middle class...

anywho, just wanted to give a heads-up if anyone was interested...go buy it

Was it this issue? I should be getting it from smitten kitten in a week or so, so I don't wanna buy it if that's the one.
http://www.bitchmagazine.com/img/nav-2-icon.gif

[erinjane]

Just commented on it in feminist outrage as well. GGG, that's exactly how it made me feel as a survivor as well. Just sickening.

[girlygirlgag]

Girlbomb, a friend just referred that article to me, as a survivor, this brings up a boiling rage I have not felt in years.

I think there needs toi be a non-profit action group against this asshole....The next Hugh Hefner? Hef's dried up giz stains have more class then this asshole.

[greenbean]

Eewwww. That guy will get what he deserves one of these days. Is that true that he was humiliated at gunpoint!? Well thats a step in the right direction. I wonder how many other girls have punched or slapped him,..you know theres gotta be a handful,..and if they got it on tape?! That'd be a funny outtake video, like, "Girls Gone Wild,..with RAGE!" But seriously he is playing with fire, and if hes careless someone is going to get enough evidence on him to put him in jail. Shall we Busties plan an undercover bait operation?...

[girlbomb]

Also related: This really gross article about Joe Francis of Girls Gone Wild, in which he physically attacks the female reporter.

But here's an interesting excerpt that says the women aren't exploited:

I call Vicki Mayer, a sociologist and Tulane University assistant professor, for guidance. Mayer teaches a class on the nudity rituals that take place on New Orleans' infamous Bourbon Street. She has studied and written about "Girls Gone Wild," and she contends that it's simplistic to say that Mantra takes advantage of women. "For some women this is liberating, for some women this is something they do on a goof or for a lark to show friends they can, for some it's a way of flirting with the cameramen," Mayer says.

Mayer has studied the young cameramen, who, she says, often sign up because they hope to break into Hollywood. Usually, she says, they end up disillusioned after spending night after night with women who lose their inhibitions for a T-shirt. "As much as it would be easy to see this as a simple relationship of men treating women a certain way, there are mutual relations of exploitation. I kind of feel like both sides could be seen as exploited."

She's concluded that the winners are "the owners of these companies who are contracting cheap labor and free talent for a media product."

[greenbean]

Oh yeah, those stats dont surprise me either.
Of course any issue about womens 'choices' is going to be overwhelmingly in white middle class favor.
Its like the issue 'to shave or not to shave'. White women can go hairy and unkempt and still be considered a 'natural beauty' or a cute hippy chick...but a non-white comes off as a dirty and gross.

[erinjane]

Sounds great, I'm definatly gonna have to pick it up.

Unfortunatly, that information doesn't surprise me at all.

[lucizoe]

Just got the new BITCH today in the mailbox - all about sex, with a couple of articles about sex workers...mentions a bit about how the women for whom sex work is a free will choice are overwhelmingly white and middle class...

anywho, just wanted to give a heads-up if anyone was interested...go buy it

[erinjane]

I think that makes sense. I definatly see a big difference, the similarity would be that they're all sex workers. As for having a problem with my boy going to a prostitute, for sure. The difference is he would be with a real person, when I know that porn is just fantasy. I don't really know how I would feel if I was dating someone who had paid for sex in the past. *ponders*

[greenbean]

Am I the only one that thinks theres a big difference between porn and prostitution?
My friends and I were talking about this the other day, and while most of us dont mind if our
boyfriends watch porn (and most of us watch as well) we would have a problem if our
boyfriends had paid for sex at some point in their lives. One of my friends claimed her
boyfriend HAD paid for sex long before their relationship, and she was fine with it.
I dont know if I could be. Is that hypocritical of me? I just feel like prostitutes are more
exploited/in more dire straights than your average porn actor, so it would disturb me if a
guy I was with had participated in the exploitation of a woman, yet I dont feel that way
if he viewed porn.
Does that make sense?