[karategrrl]

Hmm. I think you're forgetting that many fat people are a product of genetics, the same as women with smaller bustlines. Fat can be just as much a product of nature. It's not always up to what a fat person eats, doesn't eat, or how much they exercise or don't. Some people are just genetically fat.

I agree with you up to a point. Yes, certain things cannot be changed--breast size, body type--it's the luck of the draw. However, there is often much one can do with the genetic card they've been dealt. I personally know a man who lost 125 pounds in the last 2 years. He always believed he was "just fat." A visit to the emergency room woke him up to the fact that he had to do something about his weight or he would die. He told me the biggest surprise was how easy it was to lose all that weight--he did not have to severely restrict himself or exercise constantly, just adjust his portions and food choices, and start a pretty moderate exercise plan. He still eats ice cream every night--just a reasonable portion. He's still a big guy and will always be, but no longer obese, and his life has improved dramatically. Look at Oprah Winfrey--she's a "large"-ish lady, but not obese--she's healthy and in shape for her body type, and quite beautiful, I think.

I wish breast size was as easily adjusted. But I've said enough on that, since it's getting a little off-topic.

ailurophile, I'm very glad my words helped! I should have mentioned that although your guy may just be, well, being a guy with his comments, you still have to let him know how his comments make you feel. You probably know that but just want to make it clear. I'm not saying that what he's saying is okay or you should put up with it over the long run if it hurts you. If my hubby says something that rubs me the wrong way, I definitely tell him, but I've found that his comments leave less of a sting if I remind myself that he truly does not know. I get twisted when I feel "he should know better in the first place," since to me it's plain as day that what he said is hurtful. However, it may simply be that it's NOT plain as day to him and he doesn't mean to, well, be mean. It's like meeting someone from a different culture and you make the "okay" sign with your hand and they take it to mean you are saying they are an asshole.

[ailurophile]

karategrrl: I also wanted to say that I'm proud of you for standing up to those guys with the explicit photos in their store. That took alot of courage to say something. Shame on them, especially the owner, for allowing such offensive and crude pictures for the public to see. I can't imagine a business allowing that and laughing it off as well.

[thirtiesgirl]

I have something to say about the the "weight loss thing". I personally don't think that can be compared to implants. Being fat is a result of putting too much of unhealthy food into your body, lack of exercise, medical problems (ie: thyroid condition), etc. Weight problems can be adjusted by dieting, exercise, medication or help by a healthcare professional. You can be thinner with the will to do it and the right help. (I've been there.) On the other hand, our tiny breasts developed by nature only. That's what we got and that's it. Evasive surgery can help both, of course, but weight can be reduced naturally whereas breast growth cannot happen naturally. When you lose weight, you have the option of becoming where you should be as to be proportionate to your height. Big breasts and small breasts are an issue of where you should be by where society thinks you should be, therefore affecting our (at least my) self esteem. Sorry! Although I feel for your personal issues, as you may mine, it is not a comparable analogy.

Hmm. I think you're forgetting that many fat people are a product of genetics, the same as women with smaller bustlines. Fat can be just as much a product of nature. It's not always up to what a fat person eats, doesn't eat, or how much they exercise or don't. Some people are just genetically fat.

[ailurophile]

Thanx karategrrl. That was very comforting....more than you know. No one has asked me to "titty fuck" yet (knock on wood). I guess they've known better.

[karategrrl]

ailurophile, I could have written your posting. My man is the same way with the head-turning and joking. I have started to become convinced that I will never understand some things about men (and God help me if I do, ha.)

Yep, they love US, want US, would never cheat on US, but...another attractive woman walks by (perhaps with a big rack, real or not) and it's whiplash time. If the girl pays him attention, the salivary gland also kicks in and drool commences. I have actually come to recognize a distinctive look on hubby's face when this happens--it's like all other brain function has ceased. It's actually creepy.

My hubby's joking has actually been a major sticking point in our relationship. I've said this before, but I've come to realize that he just doesn't hear/see/communicate the way I do. It's not a failingin his character, it's just the way he is. He doesn't realize the impact of his words/tone a lot of the time, while to him I'm just being "touchy." Men joke like crazy with each other all the time, constantly testing boundaries, teasing, saying shit they don't really mean, and when they do it with us, all hell can break loose.

I've also had experiences admiring a top or whatever, and so was my man, not realizing it would not fit me the way it was intended. Awhile back, someone else mentioned thier man wanting to <ahem> "titty fuck," not realizing that the laws of physics just weren't going to allow it. Been there, too. I KNOW all too well that it hurts, grrl, but consider that your guy may just be, well, being male.

Sorry for the generalizations. No, all men are not the same, BUT...when you witness the same behaviors constantly over 24 years of relationships with all different men, you can't help but notice patterns.

karategrrl: Ah! Don't you feel better that our sister Gwen didn't fall prey to the other side?? Thanx for that!

<breathy Darth Vader voice> "No, she did not fall prey to The Dark Side."
(Just kidding to those considering implants.)

[ailurophile]

"Many expressed a preference for small breasts, others like titties regardless of size." They all, including my current bf, seem to like mine but when they see bigger breasts, their heads turn. I can imagine the salivation going on. I think that's what makes me feel so bad. That tells me they may like mine but they like the others better...or they miss them or wish I was bigger or something. I wish I had your courage, strongirrl. And....I'm not feeling so hot anymore. I'm actually feeling pretty bad this week. I was starting to feel better about my self b/c of all the encouragement from you girls. You know, it's not the size, it's how they work. "It's all in the nipple." You girls were starting to boost my self esteem but something happened. I'm back to seeing the "two little pathetic things" on my chest. Not sure if this has anything to do with it....This weekend bf and I went to a fair and they were selling these really cute dresses. You know the ones where you don't where a bra but you have to have boobs to put inside and he said, "Wow that would look nice on you." What was he thinking?!?!?! I said you have to have boobs for a dress like that. Anyway, we went back and forth and I said something about implants. ( Yes, they still cross my mind.) This is where he was supposed to say, "No Honey, I wouldn't want you to do that." But there was silence. I later said that I was just kidding and I wouldn't do that. He's like, "Awww.... shucks." I looked at him in shock and he laughed. He said he was only kidding. He probably was, as he always jokes around, but I'm so damn sensitive about it that it hurt. I just feel so inadequate. Now I'm back to getting embarrassed when he takes off my shirt. It's like, why bother?!?!

I have something to say about the the "weight loss thing". I personally don't think that can be compared to implants. Being fat is a result of putting too much of unhealthy food into your body, lack of exercise, medical problems (ie: thyroid condition), etc. Weight problems can be adjusted by dieting, exercise, medication or help by a healthcare professional. You can be thinner with the will to do it and the right help. (I've been there.) On the other hand, our tiny breasts developed by nature only. That's what we got and that's it. Evasive surgery can help both, of course, but weight can be reduced naturally whereas breast growth cannot happen naturally. When you lose weight, you have the option of becoming where you should be as to be proportionate to your height. Big breasts and small breasts are an issue of where you should be by where society thinks you should be, therefore affecting our (at least my) self esteem. Sorry! Although I feel for your personal issues, as you may mine, it is not a comparable analogy.

karategrrl: Ah! Don't you feel better that our sister Gwen didn't fall prey to the other side?? Thanx for that!

[karategrrl]

Strongirl, very perceptive comments.

I especially like this:

I do want to add that I have never worn padded bra's and often wear no bra and very revealing tops. So they all knew what they were getting...they wanted it...and I gave it to them, with pleasure!

I need to try this sometime!!

[karategrrl]

I came across that Gwen Stefani "flashing" pic, and it IS fake. here's the real one:

http://picvalley.net/files/2006/04/07/8837...9c56f593df9.jpg

Whew. I would have been disappointed had it been real, though whoever's boobs they were are nice. And Gwen's, too, I'm sure.

[strongirl]

Vendetta, re. your decision to get implants you said: "Of course I'm gonna be sad if someone loves my plastic boobs but at least I'll be happy with myself. Being sad cause they don't like my flat chest or being sad cause they love my implants it's pretty much the same thing."

How will you ever be happy in your relationships like this? If you get plastic boobs and the guy you're with loves your boobs, you are going to feel sad? You are putting your future guys in a no-win position! He loves your boobs - you feel bad because you think he only wants your big, fake boobs. He doesn't love your boobs - you will be pissed off and wondering why you bothered with the health risks and expense. No win. Poor guys. Poor you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get implants. While I won't be getting them for a long list of reasons, I have been more supportive of that choice than others in this thread. But I do feel sorry for any guy who is put in that no-win position you describe, especially if he sincerely cares about you as a person. And I wonder how you will be happy.

Speaking of which, I thought ailurophile's comment that my boyfried is "weird" was pretty funny. But honestly, I have been very sexually active for multiple decades and have had dozens of lovers and not one was unenthusiastic about my little tits! Many expressed a preference for small breasts, others like titties regardless of size. I do want to add that I have never worn padded bra's and often wear no bra and very revealing tops. So they all knew what they were getting...they wanted it...and I gave it to them, with pleasure!

[thirtiesgirl]

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self.

Gah! Dr. Horney?!? Hahaha....

(Sorry. I have the mentality of a hormonal 13 year old boy.)

[karategrrl]

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self. There is the "real self" -who we actually are, and the "ideal self" - who we think we should be. Trouble (and neurosis) starts when the ideal self is setting impossible goals (such as growing bigger breasts, or losing 20 pounds when you only weigh 100).

Yes, this is a very interesting point. On a related point, I've read studies that concluded that when we are unhappy, it's often because we have an idea in our head about the way our life, our body, a person in our life, etc. "should" be, and when we compare it to how it really is, it falls short. Studies have shown that those with lower exectations are happier overall.

I have noticed that when I'm down, it's often because I am doing this--thinking of how things "should" be rather than focusing on what's right in my life. Of course, I have to ride a fine line between lowering my expectations and aiming high--because if we never set goals or examined our lives, we'd never accomplish anything or make positive changes. It's one of those things that drives me in circles sometimes, ha.

[crinoline]

that's an interesting question, V. It brings to mind one of the controversies in psychology: Active vs. Reactive. As in, how much of our emotion/personality is determined internally (active) as opposed to being determined by external stimuli (reactive). It's usually a complicated combination of both.

Another thing it reminds me of is Dr. Horney's theory of self. There is the "real self" -who we actually are, and the "ideal self" - who we think we should be. Trouble (and neurosis) starts when the ideal self is setting impossible goals (such as growing bigger breasts, or losing 20 pounds when you only weigh 100).

It is most important for emotional health to feel good about our real selves.

I'm curious what you mean by self-erotic? autoeroticism? Could you explain a little bit further?

[Vendetta]

Does anyone has a "self-erotic" side?

[Vendetta]

Has anyone made a point about self-image or body image or is it that these kind of problems only occur because "society dictates"? I think everyone has to feel good for themselves and living a life against "society standards" isn't going to leed anyone anywhere?

[thirtiesgirl]

thirties girl:
I am personally very much against weight-loss surgery. I work in health care and know only too well what is involved in the surgery. Basically, the surgeon is messing with nature's design of how we are supposed to get nutrients to feed our bodies. I personally know two people who have had the surgery, and both are just as heavy as before, 2 and 5 years afterwards. The only thing is, they can't EVER eat normally again and cannot reverse the surgery. The surgery changed their bodies, but the real issue--eating and exercise habits were not properly addressed, and therefore the procedure, in the end, failed.

The issue at hand, I feel, is the same one as with breast augmentation--the surgery changes the body when it is the psyche that needs the support.

Well said, karategrrl, and molerat, too. You both make some very valid points and I'm glad you put some thought into your answers. This is the kind of discussion I was trying to spark.

[kittenb]

My point in bringing this up is to disagree with your assessment that 'weight loss can improve health and longevity,' and bring the focus back to my question, which is can we apply the same standards of judgment to small chested women who get implants and fat women who lose weight? Let's leave the 'losing weight can lead to better health' argument out of it, if possible, because most of the fat girls know that argument is bunk.

I would like to make a response to this but I think I am going to take it to the "Take it outside' thread b/c it might be off-topic for here.

[nakedmolerat]

Thirtiesgirl- You're right that "normal weight" people can have the same health risks as "overweight" people. That is because "researchers at the Mayo Clinic are suggesting that THIN people can still have HIGH BODY FAT percentages inside of their bodies which puts them too at risk of heart disease and the other diseases and conditions that affect overweight and obese people". So obviously you can't judge how healthy a person is by their weight, because there are thin people with excess body fat. Just because someone is thin does not mean that they eat right and exercise!!!! But the point is that high body fat is never good for the body.

I don't understand how you could disagree with what I said about eating right and exercising increasing health and longevity. It's beneficial for everyone- big or small. Even if you don't have heart disease or other conditions, it's good for preventing disease and releasing stress and for psychological health. So I can't be critical of people who lose weight in the process of doing what is best for their minds and bodies. I can, however, admire their strength because it's not always easy to stick to a healthy diet and exercise regime.

As for your analogy, I agree with how you feel about surgical options (unless they are morbidly obese and in a life threatening situation), and how you're comparing them to implants- especially things like liposuction/tummy tucks/etc.

I, however, disagree with your point about sex workers getting implants- of course it's done for cosmetic reasons!!! Even if they were happy with their smaller chests, they're still feeding into the beauty (cosmetic) standards that say a woman needs to look one way to be sexy. Yeah, you're right, they're doing it for their career, but THEIR CAREER IS BUILT ON COSMETICS.

But, still, I think the take home point was being happy with ourselves, and to stop expending energy being bitter about "traitors", and to put that energy towards taking care of ourselves. Also, that everyone has the right to make their own choices, even if their choices aren't the same as the ones we would make for ourselves.

[Queen Bull]

*delurks*

OMG, you GO karategrrl, i cant stand pricks like that. its such a sexist double standard thing to do. let me know if u decide to make that shirt.. we could start a movement.... XD

*relurks.*

[karategrrl]

Wowee, so much going on here!

Vendetta:
Interesting article. It sounds like a happy ending, but I wonder what the author will say in a few years, and if she develops any complications, and how she feels when she must get them replaced. I do truly hope she stays healthy, and happy with her decision, and you as well. I invite you to stay in touch with us as you journey on your path.

ailurophile:
Puffy nips: I like them, or large nips anyway. Honestly, one of the reasons why I'd like larger breasts is 'cause maybe they'd stretch my nips a little larger. I just have a thing for large/puffy nips. As far as I'm concerned, it's all about the nipples, hee hee.

Crinoline:
I'm totally with ya, sister, on your surgery comments: "Aren't we supposed to be supporting small breasts and those who wear them (hopefully with pride)? I do agree with thirties in that I feel betrayed by women who decide to buy into the garbage they're being fed and get breast implants. I feel that it is a subtle form of ritualistic body mutilation and mortification of a natural body shape. I think every woman who gets breast implants is pushing the progress of her small breasted (former) sisters back a bit.
With each surgery, the false assertion that there is only one body ideal is supported and promoted. We (all women) need to work on addressing the real problem of oppression, rather than the symptom of body dissatisfaction."

thirties girl:
I am personally very much against weight-loss surgery. I work in health care and know only too well what is involved in the surgery. Basically, the surgeon is messing with nature's design of how we are supposed to get nutrients to feed our bodies. I personally know two people who have had the surgery, and both are just as heavy as before, 2 and 5 years afterwards. The only thing is, they can't EVER eat normally again and cannot reverse the surgery. The surgery changed their bodies, but the real issue--eating and exercise habits were not properly addressed, and therefore the procedure, in the end, failed.

The issue at hand, I feel, is the same one as with breast augmentation--the surgery changes the body when it is the psyche that needs the support.


Okay, now for my story, which could be REALLY long but I'll try to keep it short:
Hubby and I are building a house. I go into a lighting supply store the day before yesterday (one that is frequented by electricians) and, under the glass on the counter, are SEVERAL pretty explicit girly photos--a display which is, apparently, the work of one of the clerks. I cannot tell you how uncomfortable I felt talking about recessed lighting and ordering stuff while trying not to "notice" the tits, asses, and snatches right under my nose (shit, Stevie Wonder could've seen that, fer chrissakes)!

The young clerk who helped me (who was pretty damn incompetent, actually) kept nervously laughing. When I commented on the photos, he told me "You'd be surprised...a lot of the guys who come in here come in just for the pictures!" As if: 1) this should surprise me; 2) I should be very impressed at their unusually innovative marketing tactics.

What got me is the kid kept laughing, and when it turned into an out-and-out guffaw, it put me over the edge. I told him it wasn't funny, to stop laughing, and that he didn't know what it was like. (I don't know if he got that, but I was referring to a lifetime of experiences where: 1) I have been regarded as a walking pussy, existing only for male pleasure; 2) men being so conditioned and ignorant to where they have no concept that posting near-porn pics in a place of business might <gasp> actually be inappropriate, and c) having no clue whatsoever how uncomfortable it feels to have tasteless girlie photos thrust under my chin).

Furthermore, it was going to be cold day in hell before this little pimplefaced barely-20-something was going to tell ME how it was. So, he got scared and disappeared after I told HIM how it was, and then I complained to the manager, who looked like he'd been totally caught pants-down. (That in itself was pretty satisfying.) I told him I didn't need to see that garbage, it was unprofessional and inappropriate, and if it didn't stop I wasn't going to bring my business there anymore. He apologized and I thought I might actually get somewhere until he said, "Well, we actually try to keep it pretty tame." At that moment I realized I was dealing with someone on pretty much the same level as pimplehead motherfucker (pardon my French), and I said, "Well, I'd hate to see what THAT would be like," and I stormed out.

I cried all the way to the house--for all the times I'd been made to feel like shit over stuff just like that, for the crap women have to endure as we are made to feel like we must fit some asinine "tits and ass" sterotype and, most of all, for the sheer exasperation and frustration that comes with trying to communicate to a bunch of ignorant, self-centered assholes a concept that they will never truly understand or empathize with, and knowing that they probably just laughed it off and thought I was just some crazy femi-nazi prude with a stick up her ass. I AM glad I said something, though, at least for my own satisfaction. Also, the fact that maybe the kid MIGHT--just maybe--ponder what I meant by "what it's like." I bet treating women as anything BUT sex objects is a totally foreign concept to him.

I am seriously considering getting an iron-on T-shirt kit, finding a good porn pic on the internet of a naked guy with rippling abs and great pecs, holding his 9-inch erect pecker, and making a T-shirt out of it that I will wear if and when I have to return to that store. Then we'll see who feels uncomfortable....

Sorry, ladies, as this isn't exactly "small breast support," but it IS these pictorials that I feel contribute to us feeling like we are somehow deficient and need to be "fixed," and also the increasingly warped perceptions of every new generation of young men.

[neurotic.nelly]

back to my question, which is can we apply the same standards of judgment to small chested women who get implants and fat women who lose weight? Let's leave the 'losing weight can lead to better health' argument out of it, if possible, because most of the fat girls know that argument is bunk.

If we are talking about having your stomach stapled to lost weight and getting breast implants, I think, women of that same group do judge them as "fill in the blank". It's like a slap in the face. It says that you are not good enough for yourself and we are not good enough in your eyes either. And to that I say, "KICK ROCKS!" We don't need more women validating body mutilation, self-harm, and self-loathing.