[CarrieBradshaw]

when i got on the computer a few minutes ago i had all these things i wanted to say and so many funnies and the changes that i have gone through the last few days, but after reading the posts from the last day i am only annoyed. i used to like coming here and reading this stuff. but recently all these posts have been putting me in a bad mood. all this back and forth bull shit. some people on this board are annoying. can i get a HEARD!! maybe if i'm lucky i will even get quoted... i can't wait.

i'll quote you! i agree! some of this stuff you just have to laugh at though. good luck to everyone!!

[CarrieBradshaw]

hi all
GREAT!!!! well the past week I have been obsessively smelling and checking myself and just now, after i made the last post, I checked and there was all this white stuff coming out. there is not much of an odor....the consistency is thick, like of an ointment. is that normal?? like are you able to see normal discharge coming out or shouldn't you?? if it helps I am on the first week of BC pills after my period. I know discharge can be different at different points during your cycle. ??

Hi there -- when I had full blown BV, my main and most noticeable symptom was thick, gooey, white discharge. I feel for you honey. I totally know what you mean about obsessively smelling yourself -- I do the same thing....

but ya know, it does take a long time for me to get back to normal after taking the flagyl.....even after the course is over.....

I hope you feel better soon.

[lori]

I realize you want to help others, but by telling someone like Maggie or me that our experiences are not reverant, or purport *my* problem isn't what it is, I tend to take offense to that Lori.

Thanks for recognizing that I do want to help. And just like with each of our own vagina-care, you have your methods for helping ... and I have mine, I guess?

... but please do not tell me that I don't have bv or yeast, when I have been dx with it. Thank you.

I don't know what you have at all, and I said that very clearly.

However, what you've DESCRIBED, is text-book atrophic vaginitis.

[tabby]

Before I exit the board, I don't want to leave what I have tried, open -ended.

On the 2nd boric acid, I experienced a cooling sensation coupled with a slight burning sensation that went away. I have read that many women experience a burning sensation upon using boric acid before it actually begins to work. I'm not experiencing any burning right now. I'm going to see the treatment through for a full 10 days. Stop, and re-assess how I'm feeling physically. If anyone is interested in contacting me please email me! Tristessaruby@yahoo.com

Peace!

[tabby]

Once again, it looks like what you're describing, tabby, is "atrophic vaginitis," which can happen to women approaching menopause, and one of its known symptoms is burning, which is not typical of BV.

No. I was not dx with atrophic vaginitis. The exams I have/had ruled this out. As did the blood work and saliva testing for hormone imbalance. With my burning, I have been tested multiple times and came up positive on yeast and bv. Sometimes, just yeast.

Looking at your very long list of stuff you've tried and didn't work - it looks like a lot of treatment for BV and yeast, but nothing specific for atrophic vaginitis. Do you think it's possible that you might be focusing on BV/yeast when in fact you might have a different problem?

Nope! I have had enough exams to rule out what the problem is, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time on a BV forum!

As I pointed out before, boric acid IS a known cure for certain yeast infections that don't respond to monistat, etc. So this may be the answer for you, and it made Maggie feel better. But obviously some women in here aren't clear about all your issues, so they've come to think boric acid is the answer for their BV. This kind of confusion needs to be cleared up.

I'm not sure what is confusing about me in particular. I'm a 40 yo old woman, entering peri-menopause, not menopause. And I listed all of the things I have tried, including the allopathic treatments and testing I have had. I have been dx with bv and yeast. I never said that boric acid is the solution to everyone's problems here, nor will I. And I'm sorry I must disagree, after speaking with an ND, Herbalist, and GYN, boric acid can be quite effective in treating bv and yeast for many women. And that is what I have gathered from my personal battle with this. I just happened to come back here and saw it worked for Maggie, and thought what the heck, I'll give it a go.

Women of any age can experience hormonal issues, because of birth control, childbirth, and many other reasons. But the potential hormonal problems have been lumped together as a general possible cause, and that needs to stop. Because it really is an entirely different category, with an entirely different set of treatments.
History of this thread will indicate that not every one can.

Hormonal imbalance IS a contributor, but not in every case. The plural of antedote is not data. Now in my case, it is hormonal. I have ruled that out for myself. For someone else, it may not be. I certainly never stated that EVERYONE is suffering from yeast and bv due to hormonal problems.

And it's not even just about get-well-quick schemes for me, but potential injury. Not that Sylk lubricant is in that category, but if you read this entire thread like I have, you'll know that it's been an issue in the past.

Oh believe me. I have read the thread and posted here before! I know I have seen women try everything, but that is their personal choice eh? I have had the misfortune of something not working for me, ie: hydrogen peroxide set my vagina on fire. But I didn't blame anyone else because *I* chose to try it. I realize you want to help others, but by telling someone like Maggie or me that our experiences are not reverant, or purport *my* problem isn't what it is, I tend to take offense to that Lori. I have been suffering for YEARS and, frankly you do not know my body any more than I know yours or anyone elses here. I respect the fact that you have done your research, and appreciate anyone's input, but please do not tell me that I don't have bv or yeast, when I have been dx with it. Thank you.

I agree with that. That is why I think before advocating a course of treatment, we should provide good explanations and research for why we've chosen it, so each reader can make an informed decision about whether it's an appropriate option for them.

That's exactly what I have done albeit, not scientific information regarding my own body. I'll make it simple by jotting down what works, or doesn't work for *me*. I cannot be bothered to tell any other woman what they shouldn't try though. That is up to them.

I'm going to leave the board and find another place to discuss this. I'm not feeling very comfortable here anymore.

[kristen]

when i got on the computer a few minutes ago i had all these things i wanted to say and so many funnies and the changes that i have gone through the last few days, but after reading the posts from the last day i am only annoyed. i used to like coming here and reading this stuff. but recently all these posts have been putting me in a bad mood. all this back and forth bull shit. some people on this board are annoying. can i get a HEARD!! maybe if i'm lucky i will even get quoted... i can't wait.

[mg86]

hi all
GREAT!!!! well the past week I have been obsessively smelling and checking myself and just now, after i made the last post, I checked and there was all this white stuff coming out. there is not much of an odor....the consistency is thick, like of an ointment. is that normal?? like are you able to see normal discharge coming out or shouldn't you?? if it helps I am on the first week of BC pills after my period. I know discharge can be different at different points during your cycle. ??

[mg86]

ok, its been about a week since i took the flagyl and so far so good - i THINK. i am driving myself nuts with checking and sniffing...I am just afraid I'm going to wake up the next day and it will be back. Before I had this thing with BV, I never obsessed so to speak over my discharge. so I am not sure if what I am smelling is normal or not. It is not an overpowering smell, but if I smell it enough I start to think it smells like BV again. I dont mean to get too graphic but if I stick a finger up there and take it out, there is discharge on it, although not all white or gooey or anything. is that normal?? its been so long since i've been normal down there, i'm not so sure anymore

[lori]

I just want to share what triggered *my* BV/YEAST hell. It all began after I started using natural progesterone cream to manage peri-menopausal issues. After about 5 months of the cream, my yeast and bv troubles began.

[...]

I'm so tired of suffering and struggling each day in my life with my vagina burning every day all day.

Once again, it looks like what you're describing, tabby, is "atrophic vaginitis," which can happen to women approaching menopause, and one of its known symptoms is burning, which is not typical of BV.

I'm not trying to diagnose what you have. I'm not your doctor, or you. But what you've described looks like atrophic vaginitis. I think you should make a very clear distinction that you're at an age where hormonal fluctuations are an issue, and also that you suffer from yeast as well.

Looking at your very long list of stuff you've tried and didn't work - it looks like a lot of treatment for BV and yeast, but nothing specific for atrophic vaginitis. Do you think it's possible that you might be focusing on BV/yeast when in fact you might have a different problem?

As I pointed out before, boric acid IS a known cure for certain yeast infections that don't respond to monistat, etc. So this may be the answer for you, and it made Maggie feel better. But obviously some women in here aren't clear about all your issues, so they've come to think boric acid is the answer for their BV. This kind of confusion needs to be cleared up.

Women of any age can experience hormonal issues, because of birth control, childbirth, and many other reasons. But the potential hormonal problems have been lumped together as a general possible cause, and that needs to stop. Because it really is an entirely different category, with an entirely different set of treatments.

I'm a grown woman and I can pretty much sniff out the get well quick schemes.

History of this thread will indicate that not every one can.

And it's not even just about get-well-quick schemes for me, but potential injury. Not that Sylk lubricant is in that category, but if you read this entire thread like I have, you'll know that it's been an issue in the past.

If anything has been learned during this time of suffering, it's that what works for one woman may not work for another. That each has their own body chemistry, has reasons for why something may or may not work.

I agree with that. That is why I think before advocating a course of treatment, we should provide good explanations and research for why we've chosen it, so each reader can make an informed decision about whether it's an appropriate option for them.

[tabby]

I just want to share what triggered *my* BV/YEAST hell. It all began after I started using natural progesterone cream to manage peri-menopausal issues. After about 5 months of the cream, my yeast and bv troubles began.

I went to an ND in Berkeley, Ca. and a chinese herbalist who both told me that the hormonal changes happened either by going into peri-menopause OR by using the cream. (I am speaking for myself here, not all women who use natural progesterone cream) Either way, I can say for *me* the cause was hormonal changes.

I stopped using the cream, but that has not solved the problem. This is a comprehensive list of things I have tried since 2006:

Food - elimination diet - all sugar, processed, yeast, dairy, nuts, soy
Acidophils/lacto - by mouth, douche, suppository
Acidophilus Milk
Pau d' arco - by tea, tincture, douche
Goldenseal - tea, tincture, douche
Echinacea - tea, capsule, tincture
Tea Tree Oil - suppository, sitz bath, washes
Enzara
Hydrogen Peroxide - washes, douche
Apple Cider Vinegar
Vinegar douches, sitz bath
Standing in the Ocean
Standing in a pool
Liver flushes
Betadine - douche
Monistat
Nystatin - vaginal tablets, oral tablets, cream, douche
Terconazole
Oil of Oregano - diluted with olive oil
Vitamins and Minerals including Folic Acid, vitamin C - by mouth or as a suppository
Digestive Enzymes
Omega fatty 3 acids - still on
Water cure
Colloidal Silver
Candigen
Yeast Guard
Homeopathies - Pulsatilla, Phos
Boiron - Yeast Away
AZO Yeast
Cranberry supplements
Plain Yogurt - eating, tampon, douche - still eat plain yogurt
Baking Soda - by mouth, douche
Garlic - capsuled, clove, douche with powder
Flagyl - endless rounds
Tindamax
Zithromax
Cipro
Keflex
Erythromycin
Diflucan
Amphotericin
Cleocin
Clindamycin
Doxycycline
Clindesse
Paxil - because at one point one doctor said it was all in my head
Blood tests - CBC, sed rate, thyroid panel, yeast, liver function/enzymes
Numerous pelvic exams/tests


Now I'm pretty sure there are a few things I'm missing. But this is about everything I have tried and everything that has failed for me. That doesn't mean it may not be someone else's magic bullet. I'm not here to argue or pick apart what one person claims or what another is posting about. I'm searching for anything I can utilize that could possibly help me. I'm so tired of suffering and struggling each day in my life with my vagina burning every day all day. I can't play with my child as I used to. Can't be intimate with my husband. Can't stand to sit long, walk too long, go shopping, to a movie, dinner... BV and yeast is stealing the quality of my life and I'm going to fight like hell and try everything to get it back. Even if I did try something that doesn't work. I can say, I tried it, and cross it off the list. I want people like Maggie to be heard as well as Lori. We all have something to share. I'm a grown woman and I can pretty much sniff out the get well quick schemes.

If anything has been learned during this time of suffering, it's that what works for one woman may not work for another. That each has their own body chemistry, has reasons for why something may or may not work. But thank goodness we have a network to communicate the experiences through. Otherwise, I wouldn't be maintaining my sanity. Lord knows, I have cried enough tears.

Now, as far as my first Boric acid capsule goes, it didn't burn after insertion. I was qute afraid though! When I woke, my period had began, but I was not burning, and still am not yet. I have burned during periods when the infection is bad enough before. So a period doesn't always stop my burning.

Maggie, I have a question for you if you don't mind. Did you continue on with the boric acid during periods too? I would like to continue if possible. Thank you!

Peace to everyone.

[lori]

Hi everyone again,
I think I need to expand on what I was mentioning earlier, that hormonal issues sometimes can lead to BV. I know not all of us have hormonal imbalances, but it is quite common for many women to get bv from some sort of hormonal imbalance.

Lori does bring up a good point, that for women that have hormonal issues, this would have to be treated. And some women have. They have corrected their hormonal imbalance by improving their diet, perhaps eliminating stress, etc. etc. Or using the Nuvaring, or estrogen cream, or a combination or estrogen and progesterone cream or other hormone therapy. Or you can choose not to. Some women do not agree with hormone (replacement) therapy. And this is of course your choice to make.

After listening to everyone here and also reading about BV I notice that: some women get bv when they go on or off the birth control pill. Some get bv due to hormonal fluctuations due to onset or end of pregnancy. Some get bv from hormonal imbalance caused by the onset of menopause. These are hormonal triggers. Many times hormonal drop-offs cause a woman's natural cervical and vaginal secretions to diminish. As well, as you get older many women's skin gets dryer and thinner. That includes all skin.. even the skin in the vaginal canal.

What you've described is called "atrophic vaginitis." It's not BV caused by a hormonal imbalance, it's just another type of vaginitis. CanCan, I'm not saying YOU didn't have BV triggered by your hormones. But what you've described isn't BV at all.

I think this distinction needs to be made. I think there are too many women in here who self-diagnose a hormonal imbalance, and even self-treat, and others who jump on the bandwagon, thinking, "gosh, maybe I have a hormone problem too."

I think if anyone suspects a hormone problem, they should be examined by an endocrinologist.

I think it's useful to discuss hormonal imbalance, just for knowledge's sake, but it's really a different topic altogether. I think we should at least make a distinction.

[lori]

Who said anything about Boric Acid being a cure.

Maggie said that boric acid put her "on the road to health" regarding her BV "interspersed" with yeast. I don't think she made that clear enough, so that readers would understand that the boric acid didn't cure her BV.

And who said Sylk lubricant was a cure? I know I didn't, and I'm sure no one else here did either.

I never said anyone claimed Sylk was a cure.

[CanCan]

QUOTE(CanCan @ Apr 9 2008, 04:54 PM)
Yes, I'm sure many BV cases are linked to imbalanced hormones.

I think this is another misconception. Vaginitis caused by hormonal imbalance is a completely different issue, and the treatment for it is different as well. We shouldn't conflate these categories.

Hi everyone again,
I think I need to expand on what I was mentioning earlier, that hormonal issues sometimes can lead to BV. I know not all of us have hormonal imbalances, but it is quite common for many women to get bv from some sort of hormonal imbalance.

Lori does bring up a good point, that for women that have hormonal issues, this would have to be treated. And some women have. They have corrected their hormonal imbalance by improving their diet, perhaps eliminating stress, etc. etc. Or using the Nuvaring, or estrogen cream, or a combination or estrogen and progesterone cream or other hormone therapy. Or you can choose not to. Some women do not agree with hormone (replacement) therapy. And this is of course your choice to make.

After listening to everyone here and also reading about BV I notice that: some women get bv when they go on or off the birth control pill. Some get bv due to hormonal fluctuations due to onset or end of pregnancy. Some get bv from hormonal imbalance caused by the onset of menopause. These are hormonal triggers. Many times hormonal drop-offs cause a woman's natural cervical and vaginal secretions to diminish. As well, as you get older many women's skin gets dryer and thinner. That includes all skin.. even the skin in the vaginal canal. With thinning skin and dryer skin come the problem of thinner mucosal membranes which make it harder to support microbial growth of Lactic Acid Bacteria. Also LAB bacteria require certain nutrients from your vaginal skin and vaginal mucosal membrane in order to live. So if the skin gets thinner there, problems arise. As well, if there is too much friction there because of sex (from rough sex, or from unlubricated sex), and the skin is traumatized, there will be problems. Because the 'food source' is eliminated, and the colonization of good bacteria on the skin is compromised or rubbed off. If the epithelial cells are damaged or removed from friction or hormonal changes, the beneficial bacteria won't have anything to feed on. The epithelial cells provide the glycogen food source.

And for most of us it is a combination of things that set the stage for BV.. for me it was hormonal fluctuation from stress and thyroid issues, plus the fact that I used a douche numerous times consecutively, and having sex with my boyfriend (with him not pulling out), therefore extended duration ph changes.

[ ...(bacteria) colonizes the vagina because glycogen is produced which provides the bacteria with a source of sugar that they ferment to lactic acid.

During reproductive life, from puberty to menopause, the vaginal epithelium contains glycogen due to the actions of circulating estrogens. Doderlein's bacillus predominates, being able to metabolize the glycogen to lactic acid. The lactic acid and other products of metabolism inhibit colonization by all except this lactobacillus and a select number of lactic acid bacteria. The resulting low pH of the vaginal epithelium prevents establishment by most other bacteria as well as the potentially-pathogenic yeast, Candida albicans. This is a striking example of the protective effect of the normal bacterial flora for their human host.

http://www.bact.wisc.edu/themicrobialworld/NormalFlora.html ]

[CanCan]

QUOTE(CanCan @ Apr 9 2008, 04:54 PM)
Yes, I'm sure many BV cases are linked to imbalanced hormones.

I think this is another misconception. Vaginitis caused by hormonal imbalance is a completely different issue, and the treatment for it is different as well. We shouldn't conflate these categories.

It may be a different issue in your opinion, but the end result is still BV - with the bv smell and discharge. And my doctor still tested me and gave me a bv diagnosis. I am not trying to say that all women with bv have hormonal issues, but there is a link there for some of us.

[CanCan]

Some ladies in here have found boric acid to relieve their BV symptoms, but no one so far has found it to be a cure. I've done research on boric acid and BV, and have yet to find anything that supports its use for BV.

Who said anything about Boric Acid being a cure. And who said Sylk lubricant was a cure? I know I didn't, and I'm sure no one else here did either. I am a proponent of Femdophilus, I think it is the best probiotic for women out there yet, and I think it is a cure if taken properly and with the correct combination of other precautions taken at the same time; but it is not a cure for everyone, because if it was, we wouldn't be sitting here talking to each other about BV. Some of us have taken Femdophilus for months and still have bv. I believe that it is part of the equation, probably the most important part, but like many illnesses, a combination of things may have to be done at the same time to bring the body back into equilibrium first - so that the Reuteri and Rhamnosus can thrive and do their job. So in my opinion, a few things that must be done at the same time:

correct the vaginal ph (make it slightly more acidic)
eliminate the pathogenic bacteria in your vagina
eliminate the pathogenic bacteria residing in your intestinal tract
introduce the correct bacteria into your vagina (femdophilus)
maintain normal vaginal moisture levels
use a (slightly acidic) lubricant during sex if you have dryness issues

Millions of women get BV worldwide, and believe that it was one thing or one occurance that gave it to them.. but I believe that that one thing was just the last straw. I will guess that it was a combination of factors that gave them the infection. And if it was a combination of things that set the stage to give you an infection, is it so unreasonable to think that maybe a combination of things may have to be done to get it back to normal health?

[tabby]

I was taking a probiotic called Reuteri a few years ago when I was having recurring yeast issues. I found it in the refrigerated section of Mrs. Green's Natural Market, near where I live. In fact, I saw the same exact kind just last week when I went into that store.

This is the one I took: http://www.potentherbs.com/shop/reuteri-naturesway.html

Thank you very much!

[tabby]

This was my story for about a year. What FINALLY helped me was figuring out (in tandem with my late gyn) that the burning was caused by a yeast infection comprised of non-Albicans Candida. The species I was infected with are very resistant to most all yeast-infection medications, even Diflucan. What finally helped was stearing clear of Flagyl (which encourages yeast growth) and using boric acid vaginally, then re-populating the vagina with the correct strains of Lactobacilli. This was before Fem-Dophilus was available in the USA. It was called Ombe in Europe. I had to get friends who lived in Austria to buy it for me & mail it to me. But that one-two punch did the trick. My gyn had a compounding pharmacy make up 300-mg. capsules of boric acid to use once every night for two weeks, vaginally. (Most "recipes" say to use 600-mg. to fill a capsule, but my gyn agreed that the "European method" of just using 300-mg. should work fine.) A pantyliner is necessary when using boric acid, since it drips out over time.
I was afraid of putting something with the name ACID into my already burning-with-fire vagina, but it actually felt soothing as it dissolved/melted in there.

(sorry I'm late responding!)

Thanks Maggie!

After reading this, I'm inspired to give the boric acid a try. You put it exactly how I feel. Putting something named "acid" into something on fire makes me want to run. I ordered FemDophilus, and looking forward to giving this a try. I'm starting to believe that I too must have a yeast that will not respond to anything allopathic or natural I have tried. I'm sort of hoping this might be my magic bullet, yet I'm cautious about being hopeful when all else has failed. When I look in the cabinet, with all of the things I have bought I should open my own pharmacy lol.

[sooo sad]

hi sprinkles...
thanks for your welcome...hopefully we all can help each other overcome this darn thing!!!
sooo sad

[lori]

wow...actually as a matter of fact , I HAVE been reading this post since last year and I do remember the back and forth...it got quite ugly...so as I do not choose to get into another condescending match with anyone, I will just keep my comments to my self and wish you all the absolute best in overcoming this condition. Peace...

For the record, I just want to say that I NEVER engaged in the ugliness. I never called anyone names or picked fights with anyone. When things got out of hand, I just removed myself from the situation.

I think some people get a little too invested in what works for them, and take offense when others question it. If your method really works, it will stand up to scrutiny. I'm not here to knock anyone's ideas, I just think it should be backed up with research.

[lori]

Yes, my problem was repeated episodes of BV interspersed with non-Albicans yeast infections. It was the latter that caused the BURNING, which was what I was asked about. My gynecologists (two of them in fact) suggested that to stop the cycle, boric acid was the way to go. Since using it, and, granted, several other things like Estrace cream, SYLK, Fem-Dophilus and tea tree oil suppositories, I have never experienced either BV or yeast infections in over 18 months. But boric acid was the initial and main treatment that got me on the road to health.

So basically, you don't know if boric acid contributed to curing your BV at all.

I think you should make that very clear - which is the only point I was ever making. You've conflated BV and yeast, and obviously, it's led to confusion.

If you don't like boric acid or the acidifying-the-vagina methodology, that is entirely your right, as it is mine (and my gynecologists') to advocate it.

If you're going to "advocate" a treatment, I think you should have very good reasons for why you are urging people to use your methods, beyond merely suggesting it. And I, or anyone, can ask about the research behind your methods. You don't have to provide the research, but I can ask you about it.

And I explained my reasons for objecting to your claiming Sylk works as a preventative, for which there is no basis. Obviously some women are thinking of buying it based on your recommendation, and I think you've led them to expect more from it than they will get. Again, I think it's my right to ask you why you said that.

You don't have to answer (and you apparently won't), but I can still ask.