[karategrrl]

Returning us to our regularly scheduled breast discussion...


"women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place?"

I couldn't have said it better myself. We shouldn't be "fixing" breasts, we should be fixing attitudes.

[crinoline]

women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

- you do seriously rock, dj. How true is that!?!

edie- thanks for the link, it is truly astonishing, the difference between that spread and the typical American bunny. She is gorgeous.

[dj-bizmonkey]

oh i wasn't referring to you implant bashing karategrrl, i was more talking about some of the comments people put up on yahoo and on the french playboy thread. no worries!

also, edie, i feel you honey, it's probably why i got so up at arms when i read that stupid sexual selection theory of breasts (the missionary position guy). i doubt i would have felt so enraged if iwas toting around a pair of DD's. in fact, if i was, i might be thinking, why the hell was this selected for, it isn't very comfortable! it's the same for me though, i feel better about mysef when people talk about how hot j-lo is because we have a very similar body type. and she doesn't have huge boobs either, i mean, they are definitely bigger than mine (prob a big b or a small c), but they aren't like scarlett j or jayne mansfield. i know what you are saying about being reduced down to a single body part. it's very frustrating. i find myself even deconstructing the women around me. we all want to be seen as a whole, not just a whole body, but a whole person (mind and soul included). even though it's kind of cheesy, the 007b website has a good paragraph about this. all we're asking is that breasts be just like necks, or stomachs, or legs, or lips,or eyes, or any other part of the body that we find beautiful as opposed to this obsession, fixation, fetishism, ya know?

and i could look at pictures of beautiful small-breasted women all day long.

women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

edit: i think threads like this treat both! i love you ladies!!

[karategrrl]

DJ, not much to say, except you just seriously rock! Rant here anytime!!!!!! and it's great that your beau has the balls to stand out in a crowd and defend his views. There may be others who feel the same way in the group but don't have the nerve to say so.

Oh, and I hope it doesn't seem like I was implant-bashing. When I read about the ways they can cause physical problems, the breast implant phenomenon just baffles me, that's all.

I am SO all for hearing appreciation of beautiful small breasts as well as seeing pictures of same!

[edie52]

Yes, very interesting indeed, dj. Good for you for deconstructing that flawed argument!

Yeah, some of those comments bugged me too. I was psyched that lots of people were simply saying "wow, beautiful" or "i have a new crush," but it's actually the negative comments have been echoing in my head all day. Especially since some were also saying that her face was unattractive- one woman said she "didn't get" the attraction to skinny girls with no boobs and horse faces and big teeth or something like that- which pretty much describes me too- I'm no Lou, but the same type I guess. And like with any person or type- some will find it attractive, others not so much. I know this kind of shit happens all over tv and the internet with all different kinds of people but it stings more when you share some qualities with that person. I dislike fat-bashing a lot too but it doesn't hit me on a gut level- I can read something, be disgusted, and then forget about it. It's also ridiculous how I feel sooo validated when I see someone like her, and then fret over people's responses to her. I wish I could just feel okay in my skin.

I also hate how women are so often seen as various parts and not a whole- "oh, this part is okay, but that one is too big/small/ugly." The worst part is that we see ourselves that way, as well. It must be so hard to be a woman in the media. I can see how some people become so affected by the shitstorm of negative, disgusting things people say about them, all from behind their computers.

[dj-bizmonkey]

yeah, there were a couple on there that actually had some insight. but for me, bashing implants is not the same as recognizing the beauty and femininity of small breasts.

p.s. did you guys see any of the comments on the playboy link that edie posted? (thanks for that by the way, she is smokin' hot) there was one that said, 'i love her breasts, as wierd as that sounds.'

why should that sound weird? i think that some men get pressured into saying they love big boobs by what i call, fraternal idiocy. it's the same mob mentality we might get in a big group of women who all start bashing themselves. even though you might feel secure, you feel like you have to say something negative about the way you look just to fit in with the group. my bf says he gets around guys like that all the time. he just shakes his head and says the same thing, 'big boobs are overrated.' the typical reaction he gets from them is, 'great! more for me.'

as strong as i think i am or may be perceived, i've been having a rough time with this issue lately. i feel like it flares up ever now and again. maybe it's because i just did a lecture in my sex and repro class on breastfeeding. i ended up reading a bunch of articles on the evolution of breasts, since we are the only mammals to have this orb-like mammaries. other primates get swollen breasts when they are lactating, but nothing compared to what we see in the range of humans. one author, who irked me, tried to say that breasts evolved because we were bipedal and changed our sexual position from rear entry to the 'missionary position' and breasts were selected for because of the visual sexual cue they gave in that position. this argument is flawed for a couple reasons. first off, there is no 'normal' position or even universal position to human heterosexual intercourse. if he had taken five minutes to look up the origin of the word 'missionary position' he would see that it derives its name from the missionaries who came to the new world and were appalled that the native americans did it doggie-style, up on all fours, on their sides, flat on her stomach and also woman on top. and if breasts, specifically large breasts, were driven by sexual selection then why would any women like you or i or the majority of the women in thailand even exist? we would have been selected out at least by 30,000 years ago along with occipital buns and hefty brow ridges.

i know i'm ranting, but i want to continue. the one hypothesis i came across that was actually compelling stated that breasts evolved their shape in humans to aid the infant in suckling. because humans, unlike our primate relatives, lack a large, forward projecting chin. our relatively flat faces (which is especially apparent at infancy before the influence of testosterone on cranio-facial features) would make suckling on an entirely flat chest (like a chimps e.g.) quite difficult because the infants nostrils would be pushed up against the skin, inhibiting breathing. it doesn't take an enormous orb to provide the proper angle to allow an infant to suckle and breath at the same time, just a slight increase in the angle.

i thought you ladies might find that interesting. and while there is NO link between breast size and the ability to breastfeed (except for in the rare case of hypomastia where vital tissue and duct systems are missing) there is a difference in our storage capacity. solution: small breasted women have to breastfeed more frequently than large breasted women. simple as that. and in our ancestral environment, with babies in slings across our chests with constant access to the breast, this wouldn't really be an issue, now would it? so you can shove your 'big breasts are selected for over small breasts' up your ass!

oh, i feel so VINDICATED!

[karategrrl]

Hey ladies, check this out!!!! There ARE some non-neanderthal men out there!!!!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...13060838AAAr9t6

And click here and scroll down for the woman whose friend DIED after implant ruptured during a plane flight! Egads!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...17072546AAL8bva

[karategrrl]

Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong.

<sigh.> Sometimes I long for the '70s, when I was a kid. No one ever heard of implants then. Sure, many women still longed for larger breasts, but overall, variety in breast size must have been waaay more appreciated than it is now.

Yes, edie, it is VERY disturbing (or at least we ladies here think so) that "fake" is the new "normal." And we are living at a time when we are here to witness it. I mean, when did this breast implant shit really start hitting the mainstream--the early '80s? We are witnessing the first generation of people who grew up with this "option" and we are seeing its effect on their now-warped perceptions. So. Fucking. Sad.

Love the Lou Dillo photos. I'd never heard of her. I think I just realized it's not porn itself that bothers me as much as porn that promotes false, idealized bodies as okay, acceptable, and even preferable.

[edie52]

Lou Doillon (she is Jane Birkin's daughter and Charlotte Gainsbourg's half-sister)

Ok, I know it ain't revolutionary for a thin, French model to be showing off her small ta-tas, but I love that she was on the cover of French Playboy. Most of the comments were really positive (though I didn't read past the 1st page). I saw another pic, though, where the comment section was totally split between "yay small boobies!" and people who were making fun of her or just baffled. Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong. She's 25, has a kid, and if you look at the full-body shot it's clear that she has some hips, bum, waist, and pubes (in addition to her breasts which are small but not pre-pubescent). She's naturally thin, just look at her mom and sister! Men who want to have sex with us are not pedophiles! It's just a slightly different kind of femininity. She still looks very feminine to me.

I googled more pics of her and found a few (ads for Lee) where her boobs look waaaay bigger. But I didn't investigate further.

[karategrrl]

Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)

I believe all things go through a 3-step process to be realized:
1) Thought
2) Thoughts become words
3) Words become action

See, you're already well on your way!

[newo_ikkin]

Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)

[karategrrl]

"if a woman has implants we have to pull the nipple out while pushing the implant back to get as much natural tissue in there as possible. "

Oh. My. Gawd. Right there is enough reason for me NOT to get them. I imagine you are an radiographer. I was once an x-ray tech aide. I loved when women would come in for chest x-rays and lie about having implants. We could see them clear as day, along with IUDs, "secret" piercings...there were no secrets!

"I've heard of women who get large tattoos to cover their mastectomy scars. As much as I would be excited for a reason to get reconstructive augmentation, I think I'd be more likely to turn my chest into a little work of art. Breast cancer runs in my family so I've thought about that from time to time."

Wow, what a creative and positive alternative. You are such a strong woman!

[Vendetta]

Exactly... I've seen way too much drop-dead gorgeous "before" breasts and that makes me want to get violent too. I can understand why an AA cup wants to go for a B Cup like I do but I just don't get it when B cups are going for D's... argh that's society's pressure happening.

[newo_ikkin]

mammograms on breast implants... main reason I do not want to specialize in that area: if a woman has implants we have to pull the nipple out while pushing the implant back to get as much natural tissue in there as possible. Learned that in the first or second week of my program and have not been interested in mammography since!

I've heard of women who get large tattoos to cover their mastectomy scars. As much as I would be excited for a reason to get reconstructive augmentation, I think I'd be more likely to turn my chest into a little work of art. Breast cancer runs in my family so I've thought about that from time to time.

[karategrrl]

Yep, DJ, she did feel like it was small potatoes. Case in point: I said, "OMG, wasn't the recovery from the impants, like, the worst thing ever?" (that's what I've read/heard.) She said, "Well, it was nothing compared to this (pointing to where uterus used to be)." 'Nuff said.

"i agree too, post-mastectomy seems to be more about getting back what you've lost, like a wig after chemo. whereas cosmetic surgery - i know we're all third wave and all in here, but having major surgery to modify healthy tissue in the absence of any medical indication seems kinda self-hating."

Ditto! I can understand implants in my friend's case, or if one breast is grossly undersized compared to the other, for example (in which case, one could also opt to get the larger one made smaller, heh heh...) BUT I've seen waaay too many "before" pics of beautiful, knock-dead gorgeous breasts I've give my left eyeteeth for, made inflated by freaking implants. Makes me want to get violent!

"Chesticles don't even come into it..."

Chesticles! HAAA! LOVE IT!

" i actually thought Ashlee Simpson was kind of cute before the nose job, now she's just yet another generic hollywood fembot. "

Me too!!!! I loved her old nose. I actually find unusual or interesting-looking people much more attractive than "perfect"-looking people. (Husband says he is lucky for that, ha.)

"the biggest scary horror story for me is the stuff i've read about women breastfeeding and their babies being poisoned by faulty implants. Just horrible."

Oh crap, I had not heard about that! Not to mention it's more difficult to get accurate mammograms (according to my friend, who is a mammographer).

[Vendetta]

I don't disagree with cosmetic breast augmentation if that's a "patient's" will. But I have to say that when I see normal women with normal sized breasts going under surgery, it disgusts me. I agree with breast augmentation in cases of hypomasty for example. If something like not having breasts mixes up with a woman-'s self-esteem, and we all know it does and we all know the importance breasts have to women, why not?

[dj-bizmonkey]

hugs to all you ladies out there! i've been out of the loop, entertaining my mom, her best friend and her daughter who is my age. on that note, it was at least mildly vindicating to go shopping with her. she's very well-endowed and probably three or four times i heard her cry from the dressing room, 'my boobs are too big for this!' it's nice to know that while we may not have mastered the sweater, we can get away with loads more types of clothing.

i agree with everyone else here, i think getting reconstructive surgery after a masectomy is completely different than just getting implants. no one (unless they are trans) elects to have their breasts removed. it isn't a choice to have breast cancer. it is a choice to, as beck put it, mess with already health tissue. the fact is, no matter the size or the shape, they are a symbol of femininity and losing that is devastating. i do understand what karategrrl is saying however as in, 'hasn't she been through enough?' well, maybe after all the chemo and biopsies (sp?) have breast augmentation feels like small potatoes.

speaking of breast cancer, i was putting together a lecture on breastfeeding for my class last week and i came across this ad campaign. i thought it was pretty amazing:

www.print.duncans.tv/2006/obsessed-with-breasts/

[beck]

i agree too, post-mastectomy seems to be more about getting back what you've lost, like a wig after chemo. whereas cosmetic surgery - i know we're all third wave and all in here, but having major surgery to modify healthy tissue in the absence of any medical indication seems kinda self-hating.

when i was a teenager i used to ponder the idea of surgery, i would never do it now as my breasts are just not that important a part of my identity. they don't even register on my radar - i want to be known for being smart, on top of my game in my chosen profession (might need to cut down on BUSTing for that), a good friend, in the near future to be a good mother...Chesticles don't even come into it, as long as they work for the purpose they're designed for (that would be feeding babies, not impressing neanderthals), i'm happy.

Not to mention the fact that people tend to look a whole lot worse after having surgery - i actually thought Ashlee Simpson was kind of cute before the nose job, now she's just yet another generic hollywood fembot. in fact, can anyone name a single famous person who looks better post-surgery (excluding gastric bypasses perhaps) than before?

the biggest scary horror story for me is the stuff i've read about women breastfeeding and their babies being poisoned by faulty implants. Just horrible.

OK rant over

[beck]

oops felt so strongly i posted twice

[knorl05]

karategrrl: right. reconstructive surgery post-mastectomy is an entirely different situation than cosmetic procedures, imo. my aunt went thru the same thing, it is very saddening to see. she was stripped of so much, it was a nice option to be able to at least get a memory back of who she used to be.

breast implants are supposed to fall, but there are quite a few cases in which women have to return to the operating table to fix whatever mishap resulted from the surgery. i have honestly heard/seen more horror stories or complications from the procedure than not.