The Lounge Guidelines Help Search Members Calendar Blogs

Welcome Guest [ Log In | Register ] ]

82 Pages V  « < 5 6 7 8 9 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
anarch
post May 17 2010, 01:44 AM
Post #121


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 873


Thanks, Star, that filled my weird quota for the week. The idea of claiming "Executive Spouse" as a title or quasi-official position, hmm.


QUOTE(auralpoison @ May 15 2010, 09:30 PM) *
no matter how many times it was said that it wasn't a race issue, to me it was framed as such whether that was Bob's intent or not.


As a result, I think, of Obama's prominence, I'm encountering more incidences of white Americans who seem to be considering race in a far more sustained way than ever before (not trying to imply this of you in particular, bob, I'm just recalling conversations from the past two years). A lot of them do it by switching the races, like "What if Obama said this about black people instead of white people?" (the racist grandmother observation in his race speech) and they work themselves up over it because, IF all things were equal, then sure, what's problematic for the goose would be problematic for the gander too. Of course, they completely miss the fact that all things are not equal. Most things are still vastly unequal. They don't know this because they're more comfortable thinking they already know everything they need to know about race from personal experience and what they read in mainstream media.

I wouldn't say there's a strong parallel between those obnoxious people and bob, because, bob, you've stated and restated your case carefully and non-aggressively. Thank you. I just bring it up because of the strong commonality, to my mind, of layers upon layers of not-knowing. Not just about the one-drop rule. Not-knowing about what a ginormous, paradigm-shifting, potentially judgment-neutralizing difference it makes to have some familiarity with the lived experience of people from the different demographic under discussion. Not-knowing about how familiarity with historical context (and present-day experiences of the people who are being judged) can make the difference between reading something as probably bigoted (or anti-feminist, or whatever) vs probably innocuous. Not-knowing about how whiteness taken for granted as the default, the "normal," the objective, can distort perceptions. Being so committed to the idea that this knowledge is irrelevant or inconsequential or uninteresting, that they'd be more likely to do their taxes before they'd spend a couple hours reading or listening about it. (well I wouldn't include you in that last one, bob, because I don't have enough information yet.)

So anyway, in short, bob's insistence that it wasn't a race issue and his surprise that it went in that direction, I thought it might have something to do with layers of not-knowing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
auralpoison
post May 15 2010, 11:30 PM
Post #122


Big Fat Bitch
***
Posts: 4,932
From: Citizen of the world


Wow, Star. That is just . . . wow. blink.gif

I would like to thank Ketto, Star, Angie21, & especially Anarch for articulating the points that they did so well. I have personally been wrestling with a reply for the past few days & really didn't feel I could do it without being defensive because no matter how many times it was said that it wasn't a race issue, to me it was framed as such whether that was Bob's intent or not.

I come from the same type of mixed background as Pres. Obama & it isn't easy reconciling with the fact that you have a foot in two VERY different worlds as a youth (the majority of the quotes selected were about Obama's adolescent reconciling). I know how it feels to wonder how I am supposed to fit in with a mixed racial identity. I know how it feels to wonder why Santa is *always* white. I know how it feels to have a white person basically pat me on the head & praise me in a surprised voice because I'm "so articulate!" I know what it feels like to go through all the bullshit & eventually decide that I'm never going to be white enough or black enough to satisfy anybody, so fuck 'em all. Thankfully, I've never had political aspirations! biggrin.gif

QUOTE(bob4both @ May 12 2010, 06:32 AM) *
And because I don't think he's living up to the promises made (or inferred) on issues that matter to ME doesn't mean I think McCain would "have done a better job". Never considered it, never mentioned it, never inferred it, never BELIEVED it. Yup, all politicians are full of shit...but we had a promise for an audicity to hope.


Bob, I'd appreciate it if you didn't act like I put words in your mouth because I didn't.

My point was that Obama doesn't just have a full plate, he has a full *table* & he's little more than two years in in what is a VERY difficult presidency. His term isn't even over & the people that voted for him are now bitching & moaning because things aren't going fast enough for their tastes. It seems like a LOT of naïvete on the part of the voting populace because our government is a fucking JUGGERNAUT of complicated bureacracy & everything takes TIME. He cannot just wave a wand & make it so. And sadly, as political history has shown us in the past few years (Because really, Clinton is the first candidate to make any kind of promises to the community. Reagan, Bush Sr. & everybody before them largely pretended the community didn't exist.), somehow LGBTQ issues are basically ignored or used to distract. At least Obama stepped up to the hospital issue, that's more than anybody else has done.

Also, my mention of McCain was in no way an implication of your advocating him. It was more about the fact that I'd rather maintain the "promise for an audicity to hope" that Obama is slowly dragging forward a step than the out & out two steps back that would likely have happened under four more years of bible-thumping conservatism.

And basic human rights? Should matter to EVERYBODY.


--------------------
"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stargazer
post May 15 2010, 10:22 PM
Post #123


brown delicious
***
Posts: 2,938
From: here, there, everywhere


Uh, did anyone see this? blink.gif


--------------------
"I'm not impressed easily. Wow! A blue car!"-Homer Simpson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
anarch
post May 14 2010, 01:28 AM
Post #124


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 873


bob4both,

Maybe you already realize this but I'm going to spell it out just to make sure. When the assertion

QUOTE(bob4both @ May 12 2010, 03:32 AM) *
Look; I'm not trying to start a race thing here;

is bracketed by statements such as

never takes credit for the race of his mother, who is white
and
Obama gives [no] credit to his mother's racial perspective,

your own words highlighted race as "thing."

I felt that by identifying as a black man only (and I have never heard him call himself bi-racial or white, though he is just as white as he is black, genetically speaking) that he was dissing his mom (not whites)

OK, thanks for the clarification. Concepts and histories of "blackness" are complicated. Social concepts of "race" are arbitrary. At the same time, they can be powerful enough to make the accumulated lifetime experiences of people of different skin tones so different that a lot of self-identified "white" people flatly contradict and deny what darker-skin-toned people tell them about the continued existence of racism.

I'm getting the impression that you haven't made a point of reading about any of the above (race, racism, black history or experience), or listening in on conversations between people who have lived it every day of their lives (racialicious is good for this). Because if you had, you'd have context for understanding what entirely valid, non-mother-insulting reasons there might be for someone like him to emphasize "black." If you look into it more, you may get a better understanding of why our answer to your question is "No," and why there's a huge gulf between your interpretation of those Obama quotes, and ours.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
angie_21
post May 13 2010, 06:17 PM
Post #125


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 662
From: Alberta


I know this conversation is somewhat over but I feel compelled to comment, having just finished teaching an anthropology course on race & racism...

AP and star have pretty much said it already. Anyone with a little bit of black heritage in America automatically becomes black in the eyes of other Americans. No matter what Obama's mother looked like, no matter if it had been his father that was white and his mother black instead, Obama would have been treated as "black" the second he walked out the door of his home. Teachers, schoolmates, workmates, would all have seen him as black based solely on the colour of his skin and the texture of his hair, not on any explanations of where his parents came from and what their DNA looked like or even what their skin looked like. And he would have grown up being part of both worlds but with everyone seeing him as belonging to only one. The fact that he is willing to discuss it frankly, as in the quotes you gave, shows courage, openess, and maturity. He even stated that the reason for continuing to identify himself as black was because of the state of race relations in America and that it had nothing to do with his mother!

Also, I believe that the overemphasis of Obama' black-ness had a lot more to do with the media than Obama's own focus. He never needed to "play the race card," because the media threw it out there immediately. And despite what republicans might say, given the long history of white presidents in the USA, I really fail to see how "playing the race card" could ever provide someone much of a benefit in an election campaign. Look how well Hillary and Sarah Palin did with the "gender card." (if there even is such a thing). If Obama had been a young white man speaking the same rhetoric and appealing to the young and disadvantaged in the same way, no one would even have bothered to worry about election day because he would have won 10 to 1 against McCain and Palin.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bob4both
post May 13 2010, 05:01 AM
Post #126


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 107
From: the land of Jack Daniels


I guess I didn't do a very good job of explaining my point. I put this in the feminist thread because I felt that by identifying as a black man only (and I have never heard him call himself bi-racial or white, though he is just as white as he is black, genetically speaking) that he was dissing his mom (not whites) and thought it might be deemed offensive by feminists (heck, I'm a guy & I thought it dismissive). I'm sure he loves his mom and that he is grateful for her support over his lifetime, but some of those quotes and what I hear from him presently does not (in my opinion) include his mom as I felt appropriate.

Thanx for the feedback, all. Obviously I'm just sensitive. And thanx for the suggestion, but I don't think I want to continue this in the "white privilege" thread; that's not where I intended this conversation to go. So I'll just assume the answer to my original question is...no.


--------------------
"Earth: The insane asylum for the universe..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
anarch
post May 12 2010, 10:10 PM
Post #127


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 873


QUOTE(bob4both @ May 11 2010, 03:59 AM) *
Is anyone offended that Obama never takes credit for the race of his mother, who is white? I mean, all he ever claims is being black, the heritage of his father, and completely dismisses that of his mother who had significantly more involvement in his upbringing than did his dad. It's as if mothers (women) dont matter in the politics of the world...and I don't ever hear ANYONE calling him on this.


I had the same reaction as Star, that those quotes were divorced from the context of Obama talking about the process of coming to grips with the complexities of identity in a society that prefers to pigeonhole people into simplistic boxes. Also, my overriding impression from his books and speeches was that he talked about his mother plenty, and positively credits her parenting with having everything to do with the person he turned into.

It's interesting that you posted this in Feminist Outrage. I'm not sure what you mean by "takes credit for the race of his mother" -- do you mean, you'd have expected feminists to be offended that he fails to point out that his mother was white and that therefore, her genetic whiteness, or white perspective, or white intellectual tradition, or white something else, should share some credit or are partly responsible for what he has accomplished? Or what?

Is your thinking along the lines of, "How can he disown his mother's race by checking "black" on the census"? (Credit to Yahoo! Answers for this question.)

What white racial perspective do you think he should credit? (ie, what do you consider to be the characteristics or defining features of his mother's "white racial perspective"?) And, "credit" for...what, exactly? Certain positive attributes that Obama possesses? Certain of Obama's achievements?

Those questions are absolutely sincere, and not hostile in the least. I would genuinely like to know your answers. I agree with ketto that if you want to continue this, it's probably better to go to the white privilege thread.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stargazer
post May 12 2010, 04:44 PM
Post #128


brown delicious
***
Posts: 2,938
From: here, there, everywhere


bob4both, I still fail to see by the quotes you listed below how he is dismissing his mother and, therefore, his white heritage. I reference AP's discussion about the one drop theory....

QUOTE(auralpoison @ May 11 2010, 01:06 PM) *
Being that America is still a white majority nation (and one of the few that subscribed to the "one drop" theory), it doesn't really matter to the populace that Obama's mother was white. His father was black, Obama looks black, therefore he is black.


So, when you use this quote...

“…and it is usually a discovery, for I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of twelve or thirteen, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites)”


...it is my understanding that Pres. Obama understood the context by which he was/is being viewed, judged, by others, most importantly, in the United States. There is alot to discuss with the complexities with the above quote for blacks/African Americans in this country. I think you are taking an issue of being bicultural and biracial as a one dimensional topic (i.e. feminism) in how one identifies him/herself. My view of feminism is not buying into a white patriarchal view of people (for instance, one major race). Unfortunately, society and culture forces people to make a choice to pick a side and be careful for the side you pick or else someone will point out how you made a wrong choice and do not fit in.

I think you are forcing an issue using quotes out of context. If you can connect these quotes in the context of a discussion of his mother, then I will concede to your argument. If these quotes are taken out of context of how Pres. Obama relates to his own experience of growing up in this country, then you cannot argue with one's phenomenological experience of being a man of color in this country.



--------------------
"I'm not impressed easily. Wow! A blue car!"-Homer Simpson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ketto
post May 12 2010, 10:02 AM
Post #129


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 695
From: Winter Land


I guess I'm confused as to what you have an issue with, b4b. In regards to those quotes, do you feel that he should be talking about his white heritage more because he refers to himself as a black man? I think I almost take it as a given that of course he's able to see and understand his mother's racial perspective (because white is the default here), however, he is a black man. If he wasn't the president and I saw him on the street I would assume he identifies as a black man. It's true, his mother is white and comes from her own perspective, but so is he, as a black man. I agree with star and AP, that he does credit his mother as a mother and a woman who taught him well.

This discussion feels like it probably belongs more in the white privilige thread, if anything. If you're still interested in it, I would bring it over there.


--------------------
Meow.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bob4both
post May 12 2010, 05:32 AM
Post #130


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 107
From: the land of Jack Daniels


"I was trying to raise myself to be a black man in America, and beyond the given of my appearance, no one around me seemed to know exactly what that meant."
"I noticed … that Santa was a white man."
"...such a pleasant surprise to find a well-mannered young black man"
"To avoid being mistaken for a [racial] sellout, I chose my friends carefully"
“…and it is usually a discovery, for I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of twelve or thirteen, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites)”
[Quote] on whether Bill Clinton was "really our first black president"
"I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother’s race"

Look; I'm not trying to start a race thing here; my point is more along the lines of the feminist perspective on his mother (or lacking the mention thereof), which I think the above quotes illustrate for those who believe Obama gives credit to his mother's racial perspective. There's obviously many more that I could cite... The point is I've heard/read enough from Obama's own lips that made me think of this from the feminist perspective (and hence the question I originally asked). The inference from the subsequent replies is that I'm drawing my perspective based on media & societal comment; I'm not. The above quotes are all from Obama.

And because I don't think he's living up to the promises made (or inferred) on issues that matter to ME doesn't mean I think McCain would "have done a better job". Never considered it, never mentioned it, never inferred it, never BELIEVED it. Yup, all politicians are full of shit...but we had a promise for an audicity to hope.

Enough political comment. This is not where I intended it to go. But, there is some pretty good political fodder here that I wouldn't mind moving to a different thread!


--------------------
"Earth: The insane asylum for the universe..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stargazer
post May 11 2010, 03:28 PM
Post #131


brown delicious
***
Posts: 2,938
From: here, there, everywhere


bob4both, Pres. Obama has actively credited his mother and his maternal side of the family for his upbringing. I remembering hearing him speak about his mother and his grandparents often during his election. I'm confused what you find to be him not giving credit to his white heritage. blink.gif


--------------------
"I'm not impressed easily. Wow! A blue car!"-Homer Simpson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
auralpoison
post May 11 2010, 01:06 PM
Post #132


Big Fat Bitch
***
Posts: 4,932
From: Citizen of the world


"You see, unfortunately, I am not black. There are lots of different kinds of blood in our family. But here in the United States, the word 'Negro' is used to mean anyone who has any Negro blood at all in his veins. In Africa, the word is more pure. It means all Negro, therefore black. I am brown." - Langston Hughes

First of all, Obama is the only president that white America apparently expects to "credit" the race of his parents. I don't recall GWB having to point out that his mother was also white like his father, but that she hails from New York state while GHWB was born in Massachusetts. Seriously. What the fuck? Are the (liberal) white folks feeling left out or something? "But, but, he's HALF white!"

Obama has NEVER dismissed his mother's role in his life. EVER. She was "the dominant figure in my formative years . . . The values she taught me continue to be my touchstone when it comes to how I go about the world of politics." And her ethnic heritage had NOTHING to do with her being a good mother & she has not been forgotten.

Being that America is still a white majority nation (and one of the few that subscribed to the "one drop" theory), it doesn't really matter to the populace that Obama's mother was white. His father was black, Obama looks black, therefore he is black. And let's be real here: S. Ann Soetoro nee Dunham from Wichita, Kansas does not have a story that is "sexy" enough for the media or the people. Whereas Barack Sr had a foreign (read - scary scary Muslim) name, ran with controversial figures, had ties to Islam, was involved in political movements besides democracy, had allegations of domestic violence, was an alcoholic, etc. His life makes for good muckraking. A white lady from Kansas that was an anthropologist that did a lot of good work in her life isn't too terribly interesting for the scandal mongers.

As far as no follow through goes, the man inherited a thirty-odd year clusterfuck & is doing the best that he can. 95% of working households have gotten a tax break the past two years, we've had talks about nuclear proliferation, we've been talking about the environment, we are actually engaging in a little something called foreign diplomacy. As much as we may not like it, you cannot please all of the people all of the time & campaign promises are just that: campaign promises. All politicians are full of shit. Tell me, would McCain have done a better job?


--------------------
"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bob4both
post May 11 2010, 05:59 AM
Post #133


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 107
From: the land of Jack Daniels


OK, I'm gonna steer this in a slightly different direction. This possibly could have been listed under the political thread, but it has more to do with a feminist perspective than the politics of it...or does it?

Is anyone offended that Obama never takes credit for the race of his mother, who is white? I mean, all he ever claims is being black, the heritage of his father, and completely dismisses that of his mother who had significantly more involvement in his upbringing than did his dad. It's as if mothers (women) dont matter in the politics of the world...and I don't ever hear ANYONE calling him on this. Are we too infatuated with the installation of a liberal president that we're unwilling to stir up any more controversy by pointing this out? Personally, I'm a bit disappointed in what he hasn't accomplished for bi/gay/transgenered, as well as some of the other crap that was promised (ok, I'm beginning to rant). But I hear no feminist response to the question I originally posed...


--------------------
"Earth: The insane asylum for the universe..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stargazer
post May 8 2010, 09:04 AM
Post #134


brown delicious
***
Posts: 2,938
From: here, there, everywhere


Wow. That advice was so unfunny. blink.gif


--------------------
"I'm not impressed easily. Wow! A blue car!"-Homer Simpson
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
auralpoison
post May 7 2010, 12:09 PM
Post #135


Big Fat Bitch
***
Posts: 4,932
From: Citizen of the world


Y'know, I don't even know who this diseased dick Danny Dyer is, but I do know that he's not funny or clever by a longshot. Lad mags are so unfucking funny.


--------------------
"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
angie_21
post May 3 2010, 09:40 PM
Post #136


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 662
From: Alberta


WTF? well you know girls we're just asking for it no matter what we wear. Skirt? clearly asking for it because it's so damn easy for the boys to get into. Pants? clearly asking for it because it's so damn difficult for the boys to get into. suit of armour and a chastity belt? clearly asking for it because now you're giving the boys a challenge they just can't turn down. In what century will the dirty old boys' club get around to admitting that the common factor here is the BOYS committing the crime?

I agree so much about the athlete thing. They're socially engineered to be "heroes" for every young generation of boys, so when they do something wrong it's covered up and made to look unimportant, rather than ever admitting there's a problem. And then they wonder why so many men continue to be violent dinks and rapists.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
auralpoison
post May 3 2010, 07:13 PM
Post #137


Big Fat Bitch
***
Posts: 4,932
From: Citizen of the world


Sorry about the picture! Honestly, I didn't even notice it when I posted.

Another charming athlete. What. The. FUCK?! What is wrong with people?!


--------------------
"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post May 3 2010, 07:42 AM
Post #138


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


Wow, the picture connected to that story is TOTALLY unnecessary! About ten years ago I think a rape charge in Italy was aquitted because the judge said a similar thing about jeans. Jeans are getting dangerous.

I agree with so many points you made AP>


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
auralpoison
post May 2 2010, 11:55 PM
Post #139


Big Fat Bitch
***
Posts: 4,932
From: Citizen of the world


Oh, totally, the ball was clearly dropped here in myriad ways, KittenB. I mean, WTF kind of "officers of the law" have fucking PICTURES taken with the accused?! I'm just glad Sgt. Blash had the sense to resign his position & I hope he never gets a shot at a career in LE ever again. Hell, I hope he can't even get a gig as a fry cook!

Even without all the procedural BS though, it still would have more than likely been a clusterfuck of he said/she said.

Y'know, it seems like everybody involved in professional sports has some kind of major flaw in their moral fiber. So much time & energy & money is put into making these young men into money-making sports machines that any bullshit they pull is pooh-poohed & excused. Rape somebody, choke somebody, batter somebody, run whatever kind of illegal enterprise you wish, we don't care as long as you're still making us money. Slap on the wrist. As much money as the players make, the owners make it twenty-fold.

I was just reading today about a case in Australia where the guy got off because the woman's skinny jeans implied consent. Apparently because the jeans required assistance to be removed (Whatwhatwhat?!), she totally wanted his penis in her. Um, I own two pairs of flattering "skinny jeans". No harder to get in/out of than any other pair I own, in fact probably easier because of all the lycra involved. And wasn't this one of the excuses used in the Alex "Preppie Rapist" Kelly's defense? The girls pants were too tight & the Jeep Cherokee too difficult to navigate unless she really wanted it?


--------------------
"You're cute, like a velvet glove cast in iron. And like a gas chamber, a real fun gal."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post May 2 2010, 12:59 PM
Post #140


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


I think it is important to keep in mind that one of the reasons that the woman refused to testify was that the cops & the district attourney were absolute ASSHOLES to her.

As far as the press not calling it rape, they never do. Alleged sexual assault is the most common way to say it because that can cover a variety of sexual offenses and is broader than penetrative rape. And as for the ppl saying that the problem comes down to Rothelsberger needing to controll his libido, well, they are clearly not getting it anyway. mad.gif


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

82 Pages V  « < 5 6 7 8 9 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: September 30, 2014 - 11:35 AM