[greenbean]

I read an article the other day about people who disapprove of women in the military because they think it means less modivation for the male soldiers. They argue that one of the chief modivations for men to fight is to protect 'their women' at home...so if there are women fighting and dying they feel like they are sending the message to the enemy of "here, take 'em."

So apparently soldiers are inherintly noble and protective of women,.. until women join in arms and muck it up(?). Jeez.

[kelkello]

And with this comes the narrow mindset that women don't belong in the military. Because you know that's what the bulk of middle America is going to say. Not that the soldiers are wrong, but that women don't belong and that somehow, by wanting to help protect their country, they are asking for this to happen. Makes me wanna stick something in my eye.

[culturehandy]

Fuck. I am speechless. I am so horrified by this.

[girltrouble]

this story chills me to the bone. npr's radio program day to day has a story on sexual harrasment in the military. there is also a story on salon.com

here is one small bit:
Last year, Col. Janis Karpinski caused a stir by publicly reporting that in 2003, three female soldiers had died of dehydration in Iraq, which can get up to 126 degrees in the summer, because they refused to drink liquids late in the day. They were afraid of being raped by male soldiers if they walked to the latrines after dark.

just to reiterate: they weren't afraid of the iraqis. they were afraid of the soldiers they served with.
if we want to talk about support our soldiers, those women serving would be a great place to start.

[chachaheels]

Pollystyrene, when I was in highschool I know we saw a short film about a man taking the stand as the victim of a robbery--an extremely similar scenario to the one you wrote out. The idea's quite old but it really does show just how much bias exists in the legal system against women. Thanks for posting that. I wonder if that old film is still available somewhere to use as a teaching tool--it really opened eyes in our class.

[pollystyrene]

Thanks- it was talked about in a women's studies class I took a few years ago, and I think I had lost the handout it was on, but fortunately you can find it all over the internet. I wonder where it originated from.

[girltrouble]

near as i can figure, i think it has to do with guilt and fear. guys know the things that guys see women, the way they talk about women, the way that they think about women-- and it ain't pretty. men are sheep, and it takes very little prodding for most guys to do some fucked up shit. on the flip side, the fear side they know all of that and they are afraid that they can't protect their daughters, and that is another thing that can impeach their ideas of being a good man, a good father. where women tend to worry about being a bad mom with the children are younger, men with daughters are hit with being a bad dad later.

but that's my best guess.

polly: what crazy said.

and cha cha~ thank you so much for your post. it makes so much about what we have all been talking about tangable.

[crazyoldcatlady]

polly, that Mr. Smith post is fucking amazing.

[culturehandy]

Touch ups, what women are comparing themselves too isn't even real. Society is so warped that it now sets the ideal of beauty as something which doesn't even exist. How pathetic.

I too would like to know what the preoccupation with virginity is. Why does it matter?

[chachaheels]

Kittenb, you said something in a post from a couple of days ago that's been reverberating for me for a while now--rape certainly has its powerful subtleties.

You were talking about someone's book, and the idea of fathers having the patriarchal right to incest--over daughters, whether that right is to actually use them sexually or to preoccupy themselves with the value of their daughter's "viriginity". I think I grew up in this household. And I do remember--especially on one or two occasions--where this preoccupation with my "virginity" felt like a kind of sexual violation. Both times ended in physical violence--the first time I was too small and I couldn't fight back, but I did end up very, very ill for a number of weeks; the second time I was older by at least a decade, on my own, and conscious enough to defend myself physically. But I've never been able to shake that feeling of being somehow sexually abused, because it didn't happen in a literal way. I mean, my father and I have fought verbally for as long as I can remember: but those incidences were real turning points I couldn't really "understand" on a clear level until now. I always felt like there was a major transgression being committed against me, in his thinking about me like I was some kind of sexual property--especially since his thinking has not changed to this day, and it's underlined all kinds of interactions which have taken place between me and my father over the course of my lifetime. Its affected everything, from my relationship to my mother and brother and extended family members, to my relationship to my husband. The thing which has bothered me a long, long time, is that everyone in my family has witnessed this--they did witness it, back when it happened years ago; and even now. Yet, I've always felt like I was the one who did the wrong thing.

Occasionally, he has made observations demonstrating the same mindset about my neice--first, when she was 3 and taking ballet lessons; and now, when she's turned 16 and has started to become more womanly in her appearance. My sister in law will note what he says and then react furiously to it: but I notice that nothing is done to remove my neice from this dangerous kind of criticism. I just know from observation that my neice, and her little brother, are "on" to my father in a way I could never have been--they're aware of his nature and they avoid running into it.

Anyway, not surprisingly, both of the "incidences" I'm thinking about took place over my interest in a boy (the first time, hell, I was a kid) and, later, in a man I was seeing. Each time the relationships were destroyed.

I never figured it out till now--but I've always felt like something really wrong happened, and that maybe my perception about it was all wrong because hell, it's not like my father actually raped me, or anything...

The truly off-putting, disgusting thing is that he still feels, to this day, that this was all "his right", and that I did something unforgiveable.

And that fact, for me, makes me look at a whole number of issues very, very differently.

[kittenb]

The whole blaming the rape victim thing goes back sooooo far. Think the 1600's when a woman in England had to have 4 men of upstanding character hear her cry for help. Isn't that still the case in some countries? And then consider the whole idea of a succubus, an evil female spirit that would seduce men in their sleep? That was the origional explaination of wet dreams. Women could take men past the point of control on their sexual urges. Such bullshit.

Erinjane, I feel you. If you tell him, let us know what happens.

That touch up thing just made me crazy. Instead of teaching girls to be happy with their bodies, let's give them ways to hide them.

[mornington]

polly, that's great. It's so true, though.

I'm the same with either finishing drinks or leaving them with a friend. It's become... normal.

o/t, but I saw this article - magazine websites offering airbrushing software. I thought it was interesting, and really quite horrible. Admittedly, the article is off a fashion blog, and isn't all that fulfilling. It just has all the links in it.

[culturehandy]

If I have to go to the washroom when I'm at the bar, I'll either toss the rest of the drink. or finish it off then go. Or I'll leave with a damn good friend.

It also helps that I know the bartenders, well, where I frequent. So I need not worry about them being in on anything. They pour in front of you, too.

(((erin)))

[maddy29]

oh erin so sorry. you gotta tell him though, dude. that'll shut him up real fast. crying is good too-dad's can't handle crying women in pain, esp. their daughters.

culture-in college i eventually got so paranoid that i wouldn't accept an open drink from anyone, and i brought my drinks into the bathroom with me. the things i used to do in college-dang! i can't believe i didn't get into worse trouble. Trouble, of course, meaning being raped/assaulted/etc.

[erinjane]

Rape jokes are totally inexcusable for me. And after reading this discussion, last night my we were watching that news story of the 101 year old woman who was hit and robbed and I said I couldn't believe they had 500 officers looking for the man. My brother said they don't even have that many people looking for rapists, and then my dad joked that rape, "isn't that bad". I got really furious at him and wanted to ask tell him I'm a survivor, but I was at the "I'm so angry I'm gonna cry" stage so I shut my mouth after yelling at him.

Gah, thinking about it gets me worked up again.

[culturehandy]

I agree polly. Why is it so appropriate to blame the victim in rape? Does someone blame the victim of a hit and run, or murder, or toture? Nope.

But when a woman gets raped, it's her fault for wearing what she did, or having a drink, or being flirty and leading a man on, or whatever. I guess when things get too far and a man gets wound up, then it's the woman's fault, or so the law would make it seem.

In my own case of stupid drunken behaviour, I went to some guys car at the bar, he could've done something, but didn't. And when I first met le man, I was at the bar and had to use the washroom bad, I had a full bottle of beer. I asked him to hold it, and I didn't know him for a hole in the ground. Things could've turned out a lot worse. But they didn't. My point is that some men are real assholes and would take advantage of the situation.

[maddy29]

yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyes-i love this polly!!!! so right on.

[pollystyrene]

This conversation reminds me of The Rape of Mr. Smith:


The Rape of Mr. Smith:

The law discriminates against rape victims in a manner which would not be tolerated by victims of any other crime. In the following example, a holdup victim is asked questions similar in form to those usually asked a victim of rape.

“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th and Locust?”
“Yes.”
“Did you struggle with the robber?”
“No.”
“Why not?”
“He was armed.”
“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist?”
“Yes.”
“Did you scream? Cry out?”
“No. I was afraid.”
“I see. Have you ever been held up before?”
“No.”
“Have you ever given money away?”
“Yes, of course–”
“And did you do so willingly?”
“What are you getting at?”
“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given away money in the past–in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t contriving to have your money taken from you by force?”
“Listen, if I wanted–”
“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?”
“About 11 p.m.”
“You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what?”
“Just walking.”
“Just walking? You know it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?”
“I hadn’t thought about it.”
“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?”
“Let’s see. A suit. Yes, a suit.”
“An expensive suit?”
“Well–yes.”
“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn’t we?”
“Look, can’t we talk about the past history of the guy who did this to me?”
“I’m afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don’t think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for bringing up the subject of rape jokes and inappropriate usage of the word. Le Boy tends to be the butt of jokes among one of his particular circles of friends. Mainly because he hangs out with these assholes and lets himself be the butt (I'm not bitter about it, noooo!) and through the grapevine I heard that they have even made up a delightful song about violating him and sing it in a joking manner. I get out of being around these guys as much as possible, but unfortunately, I inevitably will have to at some point. And I've already played out in my mind what I'll say of they ever sing the little diddy in front of me. Think Samuel L. Jackson reciting Ezekiel 25:17 in Pulp Fiction before he shoots Brett.

[kittenb]

I mean, after you rape someone, do you go bragging to your friends about it?

Sometimes, yes, they do. That's where you get cases of people who vidoe tape themselves raping a drunk girl and show it all over the place. The guys doing it may not call it rape. Normally they will just say they fucked her, but it happens often enough.

And as for the whole deal about "asking for it," when the student asked me about the rape/money comparison, I broke it down by saying that if he walked by me with the money, I wouldn't steal it because I am not a thief. I could get drunk as hell or walk naked down the street and ten guys would not rape me because they are not rapists. The one guy who would rape me is a rapist.

[maddy29]

october-i hear what you are saying. for me, that's been a huge problem. i was a party girl in college-i didn't have sex or do much more than just drunken making out, but it was enough to get me a reputation as a "slut." i went to frat parties all the time, wasted, dancing and having fun.

now, i was a naive little 17 year old and i had no clue that the reason the boys were giving us free liquor was that they wanted to get us drunk enough to be easy and fuckable. so i drank the alcohol, and danced to the great music, and partied my ass off. i also made out with boys and would go back to their room/dorm/whatever sometimes.

so obviously-this is a great set-up for rape to happen. and it did. now, that doesn't make it my fault, but yeah, i was putting myself into situations that were dangerous. i just didn't know they were dangerous. i didn't know that a boy would think it was ok to stick his unwrapped dick into me without asking first. i was so shocked the first time that happened!

ok i'm ramblin' now-shocking! but i guess what i'm saying is that yes-there are ways to protect and defend ourselves, but when it comes down to it-it's not up to us. i mean, i went to like, a zillion of these parties and had two bad experiences. other girls/women date lots of men and only one man rapes them. so i hear what october is saying, and at the same time, i think it kinda does give this false illusion of safety-to think that we can control men by controlling our own behavior.