[doodlebug]

This is quick; I apologize. I'm in a rush to get back to a bunch of work...

I think the whole "bloodline" thing - the desire to hand down one's family name and/or to beget little futuristic replicas of one's self - is often people's way of coping with the limitations of their own mortality. Having kids is a way of ensuring that you "go on" in some way, that you have left some kind of permanent footprint or legacy during your time on earth. Most people struggle with issues of mortality (regardless of their spiritual beliefs, or even because of them) and the desire to accomplish something important during their lifetimes (self-actualization). Kids are a form of "immortality"...and I've often heard even parents describe it in these terms. (And since just about everyone can have a kid, it's possibly the most accessible way to achieve earthly "immortality.")

I've always felt like my art would be my "legacy" or "immortality" on earth, although it seems now that my feminist political work is also becoming part of "herstory," which is an unexpected legacy, and possibly the main one...unless my art somehow becomes known when I'm old...or dead!

[msgoofball]

after a mindbendingly busy weekend, i forgot the chicken in the crock pot...was gone all day...i have no time for kids...i was looking at a new dog possibility...i don't even have time for that...not for a while...

i have no need to carry on a 'line'. mr. gb was adopted and has a bad stigma associated with that so no kids for us. We love his parents and are very close with them. His aunt and uncle never had children and have enjoyed traveling and such. i know i would have no problems from his side of the family which is a relief. and i have two brothers who can 'carry the name'...mom is still waiting for the joint acct., the name change, my sahm status. silly woman.

[maddy29]

yeah lucizoe whew!

[turbojenn]

Here's my thought on the whole name/bloodline issue, albeit a rather crunchy perspective, so hold on tight...I believe we've all been here on this planet in other lifetimes, incarnations, and that our spirit can span many many lifetimes....now do I believe that my spirit is tethered to the ancestral line that I am a part of this time? Hell no. So really, the whole bloodline thing, makes no impact on my decision.

I think, like anywhere else, that if you bring your babies along they either should be well behaved, or leave the immediate public area with them and go somewhere else while they squall. We've had a lot of funerals in our family in the last couple years, and my SIL always had to bring her kids along - should she miss her mother's funeral or her grandparents'? No. But she was kind enough to pre-arrange with some of the church volunteers to take her kiddos if/when they started to fuss so that she could still be a part of the service...it worked out fine. Its all about respect, right?

[lucizoe]

(sidenote - took a pregnancy test and boom! started bleeding. Weird. I guess once the stress went away...)

[katiebelle2882]

people like your mister's uncle's wife make me insane. and the fact that he (the uncle) doesnt tell her whats up and to get a grip is equally bad. clearly, she doesnt have much else in her life, including logic and a sense of decency

[atarrill]

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quote:

"What the fuck were you thinking?"

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HA! I met a state senator on a plane once and he said he asked his son, who had just started a second family at somewhere around age 50, that same question.

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quote:

Many men are very content with the idea that their kids are, ultimately, someone else's problem.

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So true. Most men know, at least subconsiously, that the mother will end up doing most of the shitwork with the child. The mother will usually take on the "second shift" whether she wants to or not, and if the guy decides to go out to buy a bottle of cologne rather than wash the dishes, he can do it.

Good thoughts, Kjhink. A lot of guys say they'll do the work and then they become resentful and refuse to do it when reality hits.

I have to admit that I'm not so concerned about carrying on the "name" but the bloodline, the memories, all that stuff. Wish I could do it, had wanted to when I was younger, but I gave that up to have my independence.

[kjhink]

I've been lurking here forever, as someone who has gone back and forth on kids and remains fundamentally undecided, I just want to say how glad I am to talk with intelligent women from all over who are either firmly and happily not reproducing, or who are also undecided because they recognize the HUGE costs (in every sense of the word) of children.

I think that many men are pro-children because on some level they know that having a baby will affect their lives less than it affects ours. They may or may not feel this consciously, and I doubt that most men who are aware of it wouldn't admit it. Hell, they might even be incorrect in their assumption, but I believe that assumption is there.

For them, fatherhood is about little league games, ice cream trips, and learning how to ride a bike. The day-to-day mundane kid maintenance that parenthood entails is lost on them. PLUS, the threshold for being a "good father" is a lot lower than the threshold for being a "good mother."

Plus, we are heavily enculturated with the idea that child rearing is women's work. Even the most feminist man has been steeped in a world that tells him that he is not expected to do much to care for his own offspring. Some realize this, most don't. Many men are very content with the idea that their kids are, ultimately, someone else's problem.

My ex-husband morphed from a reasonably normal human being into some alpha-male uber-tool during the course of our marriage. We were discussing having a baby, and as time went on he made it clear that he felt his desires should trump mine in all areas of kid-rearing. Had we become parents there is no way we would have parented 50/50, despite any discussions we had had prior to our marriage.

[lucizoe]

The only conversation I ever had with a man about having kids (except of course for Mr.Luci, who is just as adamantly against them as I am) included his desire to pass on his name (whatever the hell THAT means) and the usual stupid reasons to have them. I know he's thinking he'll couple with a woman who will do all the shit work involved, as they usually do.

Last week we were deep in the Mister's family for two days for his granddad's funeral. It was rough; they are exceedingly clannish and his grandfather was the head of the clan and very much Mister's true father figure. However, we are not married, so I didn't get any questions regarding reproduction.

However, his uncle (who is only about five years older than he is) is on child number 2, little M'Stake. His wife is so attached to the seven month old that she refused to leave it with the babysitter they got for the older child, instead dragging it to the memorial service and dinner afterwards, where all the focus had to be on the stupid baby instead of the fantastic man we were supposedly there to honor. Add that to the fact that the next day we were all at the cemetery, waiting for them for twenty minutes past the scheduled time because his wife had to do her hair and makeup. The poor honor guard dudes had to just stand and stand and stand and stand, Mister's grandma was close to losing it when we got there and the wait didn't help, and they didn't apologize for being late, nor did they leave the baby behind with the babysitter THIS time either.

I really think there are places where infants are just NOT acceptable and funerals are one of them. Everyone's focus goes to the kids instead of on the deceased; I suppose for some it's a welcome distraction, but in general, I disapprove. As I do of a lot of things.

Hee - at the memorial service we were talking to some random dude who, at 48, had adopted a baby with his wife. The baby is now 20 months old and was running around wreaking havoc at the service too. When Mr.Luci heard the dude say he was 48 and had just adopted a baby he asked him: "What the fuck were you thinking?"

Rude, perhaps, but I had to giggle. Especially when the guy replied, with a huge sigh: "I wasn't."

(((obelix)))

(on a related note, I um, haven't gotten my period yet...so, any "Let's get this girl's hoo-ha bleeding" vibes you wanna send my way are more than welcome...)

[treehugger]

Cloverbee,

I don't know if you'd consider me "older". I think I probably am because I'd be pushing it if I got pregnant. I'm 38 years old.

At my age, many men that I meet already have kids. Some of them have kids in their late teens. I don't get any flak anymore from potential dating partners. However, when I announced my tubal surgery, a couple guys asked me if I wasn't being "drastic" because "it's so permanent".

I do have to admit to looking younger than 38. But my close friends know how old I am.

I had pretty good luck on an internet dating site that let you click on if you want kids or not. They know right up front that way...and you can exclude them if they want them. Never had one of the internet dates work out in the long run though, although the reasons weren't child-related.

As for me, I'd prefer not to date men with ANY kids at all, grown or not grown. I just don't want those weird encumberances that come with them...such as "dad, I'm in jail, can you bail me out?"...or dealing with a grown child's rejection/acceptance of me.

I'm a happy sort, though. And like I said, the "flak" has all but disappeared.

[sybarite]

My mister has a daughter already (who doesn't live with us) but is still more open to the idea of us having kids than I am. I'm very happy he has his daughter because it takes some pressure off of me, but at times I think he feels I am being 'selfish' for not wanting kids. Whereas I look at our life right now: both working long hours, barely eating together, sharing half the weekend together because of different schedules, and I can see that everything would have to change completely, giving us less time together and putting more pressure on. I know he'd do his share of the childcare, but I already do the lion's share of the housework and I'd just be stuck with all the extra cleaning and laundry.

The above is not to vilify my mister; he's a good father to his daughter. I think there's a vicious circle whereby women are still perceived as the default main parent. Men absorb this and then can reinforce the pattern by being less hands-on, which is roundly condoned. My guy transcends a lot of stereptypical male behaviour but I feel in the area of parenting the odds are stacked too highly against us.

Additionally, I just like my life the way it is now. Yes I work long hours, but I choose to because I like my work. I see no reason to change anything.

[rainarana]

do you ladies find it wierd that so many men want kids?>

Besides the not having as much responsibility for the kids, I think it's also a MANHOOD thing. Like the stupid invention some guy came up with. Prosthetic testicles for dogs. They couldn't stand the idea of their dogs losing their virility, even if they don't want puppies.

Once childfree women get into their middle and upper 30s, there's the possibility of finding a guy not too much older who has grown children and doesn't want a second family. Sometimes these are men who have solid careers and want to experience "life" (going to movies, having a social life, traveling) with a wife rather than all the crap of raising kids. Sounds harsh, but that's the truth. >

That's what I ended up doing. My fella is older with grown children. His kids are great, one is working on her PHD in Biochem, the other daughter is ay university majoring in theology. Both are like much younger sisters to me, and I dig getting to be a type of mentor. The older of the two spent the weekend and we were talking about kids. She's leaning towards not wanting to have any. Her boyfriend says he wants them but she grimaced at the thought. I told her she should convince himm to get a job working with kids. I don't think he's ever been around young kids much so he has no idea. And he's a sports fanatic, which means he would resent not being able to do all his sports related stuff because his girlfriend works massive hours and may well have to travel for work.

hear you. But I catch a lot of flack from men about not wanting kids. as if I'm some sort of really immature person or something. I think they think I'm acting like an immature 15 yr.old who is selfish for not wanting kids.>

I can't help but think that there are still a lot of men out there who see women as vessels for their seed. Why the hell else would they get so offended?

And about the family name thing, why oh why do people care about that.

[pollystyrene]

Drive-by- I've been out of town all weekend, and I'll catch up tomorrow, but I am super pissed right now because my boyfriend has this friend who's becoming more and more of a thorn in my side- he's just a misogynist asshole and I wish my boyfriend would just end their friendship...I'm sort of the Yoko Ono figure- it's all my fault they don't talk as much anymore...personally, I think he's just pissed that I wouldn't take him back in high school! Anyway, I found out from another friend who does still talk to the guy that asshole-boy told this friend that he thinks it's a good thing my boyfriend and I aren't procreating, meaning more as a swipe to me than my boyfriend. How lovely it is to have it tossed back in your face! Maybe I'll have a kid and leave it on his doorstep!

[cloverbee]

I hear you. But I catch a lot of flack from men about not wanting kids. as if I'm some sort of really immature person or something. I think they think I'm acting like an immature 15 yr.old who is selfish for not wanting kids. That's just the vibe I get. Or they can't believe it and then start to tell me about their five or six kids. But sometimes I feel like one day I will meet a man who will respect me for not wanting kids and I'm starting to think that's not going to happen. BTW I would never date a man w/ kids. No matter what. It's interesting to hear from you older ladies who have so much experience with these issues. I would like to hear more from you all.

[turbojenn]

Obelisk...I'm sorry you had to make a tough decision, but honesty is so important, and you know what you want....nothing wrong with that.

I think so many men do want kids, but having them does not mean the same level of responsibility for them as it means for women, and for me, that is not ok. Kids are a perfectly nice idea, turboman has mentioned that he would be the last to carrry on his family name, and well, that name's not going anywhere with me. We're in a tough spot negotiating the no kids point, and Obelisk, I would not choose to have this conflict. So, I think you are wise and reasonable for having the courage to be honest about what you want and need.

[atarrill]

Obelisk, I'm sorry about that. I know it hurts, but you're strong and I admire you for being honest with him even when you knew it would probably end the budding relationship. Hang in there -- I believe there are men out there who are also serious about never having children.

Most men of my age (43) would not expect me to have their babies, or they are finally ready to have kids, so they are interested in women at least 10 years younger than me. (I would not date a divorced man with children still at home with him or their mother.) The man I'm with now is younger than me, but he was in a long-term relationship with a woman who had a young son and never allowed him to parent the boy (whose dad had basically disappeared). The whole thing soured him on childrearing. My guy would like kids but he said "If it's having children or having you, I want to be with you". Yet sometimes I think he should be with a woman who wants at least one child.

It's so dumb, most times it seems guys are afraid of "getting trapped" by some woman and then there's that stereotype of the "desperate for a baby" single woman in her late 30s whose "clock is ticking". Guys hate that. A lot of men, once they are fathers, aren't that happy with the situation. As we know, so many just think "I want kids" without thinking deeply about what it actually means or how it will affect their lives.

Once childfree women get into their middle and upper 30s, there's the possibility of finding a guy not too much older who has grown children and doesn't want a second family. Sometimes these are men who have solid careers and want to experience "life" (going to movies, having a social life, traveling) with a wife rather than all the crap of raising kids. Sounds harsh, but that's the truth.

It cracked me up a few years ago when one of my gal pals told me I was "a real catch" for an older, successful man who wanted a second wife to travel the world with because I am financially independent and I don't have the "baggage" of kids. But then I looked around and realized she was right.

[rosered]

One of the nine hundered thousand reasons my mom is awesome: she says if she wants kids in her life in a grandparenty-way,it's her responsiblitiy, NOT MINE, to come up with them. She's talked about volunteering with kids and foster-parenting as possible options for futures with children.

As for me, I love kids, love working with them, love hanging out with them, but I'm not having them. People tell me "you're so nurtuing, you should have kids," but what they fail to understand is that I'm able to nurture kids because my life leaves me time to nurture myself, something that is very difficult for most modern parents. I look forward to the possiblitiy of being an aunt, but I'll never be a mother. I think too many people assume reproducing is the only way to make kids a part of your life.

[cloverbee]

do you ladies find it wierd that so many men want kids? you would think they wouldn't want the responsibility. what's up w/ that?????
btw obelix, sorry to hear about that.

[obelix]

Sigh. Another promising relationship just ended because I'm adamantly child-free. We'd only been seeing each other for a few weeks, and weren't even officially dating yet. Then we had The Talk, and I admitted that, despite how amazingly cool he is, I've known from the very first date (when he said that he intended to move back to the midwest to raise a family some day) that we couldn't have a serious relationship.

Poop! I know we made the right decision, but now I feel like I should start introducing myself to people as "Hi, I'm Obelix, I'll never reproduce, nice to meet you." Otherwise, this is just going to keep happening.

[damona]

*threadcrashing*

lightbright, i know this is coming in late, but i just want you to know that you are not alone. i just turned 26 and have 4 sons, 7,4,3,and 18 months. i get little help and less rest and there are so many days when i wonder why the hell i did this to myself... but under all the chaos i do love my kids. you gotta try to get some time to do things for yourself or you will end up resenting your kids. i always used to say i was never having kids (yeah, thanks birth control, for working so well), and now my life is one crisis after the next. hmmm... i'm a babbling a bit, sorry. i'll stop.

also, oneping and lightbright, you are welcome over in the mama threads too!

oh, and kinda on topic... i had a tubal after my last kid and every time i see my dr he says "just remember, there's still a 1 in a hundred chance of you getting pregnnt!" i just tell him to shut up and stop trying to jinx me! (altohough he is right, there is a higher chance of your body regenerating/getting around a tubal when you are in your early/mid 20's than when you are older, just fyi!)

ok, i'm sneaking back out now...