[LoveMyPugs]

greenbean -

Dude, I suck at Math . I'm fucked uh?

But I'm fat so I guess I'm saved!

[nickclick]

thanks maddy!

and thanks greenb for your story. mine is similar, in that early on i rejected girly stereotypes, and in college had trouble fitting in with the feminist academic girls.

i mostly hung with (and still do) creative types that strive to live unconventionally, but rarely identify as feminists. nobody in my circle would disagree with the basics greenb laid out, but to be a feminist maybe they feel they've either got to be particularly activist (as with your interracial couple friends?) or academic (read all the right books).

and of course the word seems old-fashioned, and pointed at certain issues from the past, like voting rights, abortion rights, and getting out of the house and into the workplace, issues that seem to be passe.

okay, i'm veering OT. yes, i agree that living a feminist lifestyle means living it how you wanna, dating who you want, listening to and reading what you want, etc. but by making those decisions without influence of convention or bias.

i used to never think i'd want children because i thought it was too stereotypical female of me to want them. then i grew up a little, thought long and hard about how i want my future to be, and realized that yeah, i want some, for selfish reasons but also to hopefully raise smart productive people. my hope is to do something stereotypically female but in a progressive way.

[greenbean]

Hey Sixel! Whats the haps?

I guess theres a new flamewar in the porn thread and I don't know all the history so I can't weigh in....but in continuing with the "what is feminism" theme I like to add my humble little insights. I suppose all women that identify as feminists are in general agreement that we are equal to men and deserve equal treatment, right? I mean, I've never come across a feminist who says "we ARE dumber than men, we ARE only good at certain things, we SHOULD'NT get paid as much as them, and we DON'T have a right to our own bodies."
I think the comfusion and debate comes up we we ponder "what is a feminist lifestyle?".

I used to think being a feminist was rejecting all things feminine and old-fashioned. I grew up a tomboy, and still am in a lot of ways. As a child I liked to play with train sets and climb trees, and was so cruel to my little sister who prefered dolls and dressing in princess garb. In high school I rejected make-up and trends, and most of my friends were guys. I started to play bass and jammed with my guy friends after school if I wasn't at my coed swim practice. This was before I even knew much about feminism, I was just being me. I first learned about "3rd wave" feminism through bands like Bikini Kill and Sleater-Kinney. I started to feel like I wasnt very feminist because I was hanging out with guy friends instead of bonding with like-minded ladies. I found some pretty cool chicks, and we made an attempt at being an all-girl band. We sucked, and never went anywhere, but those girls are still good pals of mine.

I also tried to get into the 'brainy girl' clique at school, I really idolized those girls, you know, the Lisa Simpson types. They were skeptical of me since I was an athlete, which didnt really jive with their attitudes, and while they didnt invite me out on weekends, they did let me talk to them at lunch. They introduced me to books about feminism and we talked about how to be good feminists, particulary in regards to academics. See, I suck at math, always have, but my straight-A feminist friends tried to convince me that I was suffering under the patriarchy, subliminally convinced I suck at math because thats the message that has been ingrained in me: girls suck at math. Well, that was a very frustrating time, cuz try as I might to stick it to the man and be a math whiz and become a molecular scientist, I just couldnt do it. I still think those girls were super cool, and I know at least 3 are very successful now (lawyer, filmmaker, dentist) but I never felt smart enough for them to accept me.


After high school I sorta ditched academics altogether, and focused on being a punk. I went to a lot of shows, got tattoos, got in fights, (both political arguements as well as physical, I clobbered this one guy for grabbing my chest, and I say chest because I am boob-less), and rode my beat up bicycle everywhere. Eventually I befriended some bike messenger guys and we formed a bike gang. There were about 8 guys and 3 girls, but to my dismay the girls flaked a lot so I was usually the only girl. I again tried to bond more with feminist women, but something never clicked. I'm naturally skinny and some women would say really patronizing things to me, like I cant really be feminist because I fit the mold of a thin model (the true enemy, egads!) and dont understand the plight of women like them (big or lesbian or both).

Eventually I made two really good woman friends, but neither identified with feminism even though they sure seemed like feminists to me. One was a lesbian with a huge heart, totally accepting of everyone. She was a former punk junkie turned marathon runner, and is currently in an solid relationship with a black woman with an equally big heart. I've tried to talk feminism with them, but they wont have it. They say the interracial issue is a bigger one for them, so I dont press.

The other good female friend I made I met when we where working for an action-sports website. I was interviewing bands and writing about street culture, and she was a surfer doing surf-culture commentary. She traveled the world to surf, wrote for various surf magazines, and even was on Fox news as a 'surfer' corspondent (long story). When I met her I felt like 'whoa shes tough, smart, independent, if this isnt a feminist then what is?'...well, I soon found she had different ideas on the matter. We got into a debate after she broke up with her boyfriend because, as she confided in me, "he was a pussy". I was shocked and angered that she would say that. Surely as strong, enlightened women we should not cast off men who were sensitive, tender, and less athletic than we. Surely if we women want to live in a world where we participate in traditionally boy activities, then we must be supportive of boys who have more traditionally female qualities, no? When I said these things to her, she said, "support them as friends, sure, but i don't have to force myself to fall in love with them, I mean, I may act tough but I still like to be the girl in the relationship." That day was a breakthrough for me. I too was more attracted to traditional guys, but I had to stiffle it because as a modern woman I thought I had to be with a 'modern' man, you know, sensitive, emo, pacifist, etc.

Well, I don't feel that way anymore and I'm STILL a feminist!

[maddy29]

i love hippies

i love what you said here nickclick:

making sure a wife doesn't want to submit to her husband because she thinks it's her only or even her easiest choice.

I just want to highlight "her easiest choice." I think that is SO important!

[nickclick]

It's about feeling who we really are, not what others (including other feminists) want us to be. That means if being a stay at home mom who submits to her husband (by choice)makes someone happy, then I can't complain about that. That's her choice. As long as I'm allowed to have my voice and not be denigrated for it, I can't do that to another woman.

but feminism is also about presenting all choices available to women and making sure a wife doesn't want to submit to her husband because she thinks it's her only or even her easiest choice. feminism is raising consciousnesses! the personal is political! (i swear i'm not a hippie)

[lilyblue]

*bumpity-bump*

I thought this would be a good time to resurrect this thread in light of the discussions in the porn thread. What is feminism to you?

To me, feminism (womanism) is allowing women to experience their full humanity. The good, the bad and the ugly. It is about experiencing and questioning our dark sides and embracing our light sides. It's about feeling who we really are, not what others (including other feminists) want us to be. That means if being a stay at home mom who submits to her husband (by choice)makes someone happy, then I can't complain about that. That's her choice. As long as I'm allowed to have my voice and not be denigrated for it, I can't do that to another woman.

For me, it is not looking to male-defined behaviors as my guide, but asking myself what is healthy for me. It is coming to terms with my power as a woman and accepting that. For if I accept my power, I can share that with other women and not feel the need to undercut, put down or attack. It also means that I can accept (constructive) criticism and not feel attacked.

It means, that those things which have been defined as feminine (and therefore are negative) are just different, not better and not worse.

sixelacat, good question. I need to think more about this.

[maddy29]

yay! thanks sixelcat! i didn't even know this thread existed...

[sixelacat]

*bumpity-bump*

I thought this would be a good time to resurrect this thread in light of the discussions in the porn thread. What is feminism to you?

[dusty]

I went to a meeting last night where one of the speakers made a point of saying that she represented a feminist group. It was a peace group, but she was very explicit about how their peace activism was informed by feminism. Its hard to explain, but it didn't come off the least bit crunchy granola, which it could have, it sounded unapologetically feminist. It was so refreshing.

[lot49]

Yeah, I know that the feminine pronoun for vehicles isn't meant to be deragatory, especially in languages that have gender-specific nouns. Because American English does not have gender-specific nouns for other things, it just seems contrived to me, especially with 20 - 30 year olds referring to their Hondas...girlbomb, I don't think I've ever even analyzed it to the point you just did.

Anyway, my point was not that I have a uber-solid, well-researched reason for why it irritates me, or that anyone else should be irritated by it, but that I think I should be able to say that it annoys me without being lumped into some narrow idea of what Rush Limbaugh thinks feminism is. And it's a recent example (for me) of how the undesireabliliy of the identity "feminist" can be used as a way to score points in a debate.

I think it's such a sad thing to see women who are feminists who won't identify as feminists. But the pressure to shy away the word is huge.

*girlbomb, I would totally wear a happy feminist t-shirt!*

[girlbomb]

Lot49, I think I understand the semantics behind your irritation. Calling boats and cars "she" and "her," especially boats and cars you own, implies to me that they're your mother-servant-girlfriend machines who do your bidding. But they also have some mystical juju whereby they (hormonally, tempermentally) feel like working or don't feel like working -- jess like a woman!

I should make a t-shirt that says "Happy Feminist" on it. Like, it's a declaration of self, but also like it's a holiday.

"Happy Feminist!"

"Happy Feminist to you, too!"

[nohope]

What part would testosterone play into that violence, along with socialization and upbringing?

Testosterone

* In animals, increased levels of testosterone is related to social aggression
o reducing testosterone in the alpha male eleminates his dominant social status, and restoring testosterone (through injection) causes him to regain his social status.
o However, giving testosterone to non-alpha dominant males does not make them dominant or alpha
* So, for animals testosterone does not increase violence or aggresion, but does increase social aggression in alpha males.



Humans and testosterone

* Abnormally high levels of testosterone in humans is related to increased social aggression, but there is no evidence they are more violent.
* Thus, there is no evidence that testosterone levels have any predictive value in identifying violent behavior, nor does it increase violent behavior.



Genetics and violent behavior

* 1960: researchers looked at men born with an extra Y chromosome.
* However, further studies showed while more men in prison had the extra Y then men in the population, they were not necessarily violent. Many were incarcerated for non-violent crime.
* Furthermore, XYY males are extremely rare, thus this syndrome could not explain all the violent behavior



Genetic mutations studies

* Tg-8 knockouts
o Blind mice with really lousy tempers
o Normally mice with plenty of room can share same environment
o Tg-8 mice (who lack MAO-A enzyme) attack any other mice or animal in cage



Summary

* No specific genes for aggression, perhaps some for impulsivity
* Testosterone: no empirical evidence
* XYY prisoner study flawed
* Amgydala: site of rage
+ Electrode in bulls
+ Pre-frontal lobotomies


http://courses.washington.edu/nurs509/defi...tion/sld022.htm

[curioushair]

I haven't cared a whit what people thought about my "feminist ideals" (or my support of gay marriage, or Nader-backing, or whatever gets their ire) since high school, and even then I mostly tried to ignore them as much as possible.

Living in the conservative midwest gives me a lot to rebel against. grrr.

If women were allowed anger, there'd be a hell of a lot less backstabbing and pettiness. Maybe then we wouldn't have to take it out on ourselves. Anger, when channeled properly, is a great motivator. I think people see anger, especially anger in women, as uncontrolled rage. Too emotional. Even my dad still says that. Of course this is a man who's made a second career out of screaming at televised sports for the past thirty years. That's really productive.

[mornington]

lot, considering a lot of languages have gender-specific nouns I think referring to a boat etc as "she" isn't meant to be derogatory. Up on the welsh borders, almost everything is gendered - and usually female. ("I need the tractor in the top field, has she got enough fuel?"). Just my ten pence though.

The "angry feminist" perception is why I don't call myself a feminist in front of a lot of people. I find they're too quick to judge, especially when it's combined with my appearance, and people tend to distance themselves from me. A lot of women (ok, girls) my age won't self-identify as feminist because it has been given so many negative conotations. Even when they are feminist in every other way.

[lot49]

That's a great comeback, jsmith. "Be my monkey! I'm waiting!"

It really is incredibly annoying. People do not just walk around smiling like they've just chased their lobotomies with a happy pill. I guess guys use it to approach women, though I can honestly say that of all the times some guy has said that to me, he's never followed it up with anything ... even when I was younger and more likely to smile than to tell them to f*ck off.

So, I got into a pretty heated debate a couple of weeks ago with someone about why referring to boats and cars as "she" irritates me. It does, especially with cars (I don't know why -- maybe because most people refer to cars as "it," so you have to make a point of going against the grain to call it a "she"). Now, I'm not flipping out angry about this, I'm not protesting, writing letters, starting a campaign against it. But it bothers me, and when it comes up, I say so. The other person's whole argument was that it is (a) not insulting and (b) that I'm, in so many words, an angry feminist looking for problems that aren't there. And part of his line of arguing, I'm sure, was to assume that I'd back down because I wouldn't want to be branded as an overacting, angry feminist. Because that's how negative the stereotype is. And it partly worked -- I definitely felt pressure to take the argument out of gender issue and put it into a language framework, although I didn't. And in situations like this, if you don't back down from your point, then the very fact that you keep arguing about something so mundane proves the point, that you are in fact, an angry feminist.

[jsmith]

I totally agree about the smiling thing. People are always telling me to smile. I usually respond by telling them to tell me a joke, and I'll consider it.
One day this abrasive old fogey came up to pay (this was at work) and he told me I should go to friendly school, because the whole time he'd been there, I never smiled. I would have told him to bite my ass, if I wasn't on the clock. But what really got me about that situation was that he actually made it a point to watch me, to see if I'd smile.
And it seems like it's always men who are saying shit like that.

[amazonprincess]

This thread is really helping me articulate why I am a feminist. I'm a pretty quiet one (well, I'm pretty quiet generally).

I have a friend who said to me "I'm going to stay home with my kids, feminazis be damned". Ick. I responded by outing myself as a feminist and how we now have the choice of working or staying home. Followed that with the idea of equal pay for equal work. If I had time to prepare I could have mentioned emergency contraception (which I took her to the clinic for in college).

[raisingirl]

WORD , Doodle. I hate that "Why don't you smile?" shit. I'm not here for anyone's amusement but my own, dagnabbit.

[lot49]

Yes, it's the way "angry" is perceived when it's followed by "feminist." People who use their anger to inspire them to fight world hunger or beat cancer or go up against a huge corporation to "fight for what's right" are heros who are then turned into inspirational movies. It's no different for a woman who gets angry about violence against women and is inspired to protest or raise money for the issue, yet the perception -- that her motivation stems from her own personal unhappiness and hatred of men -- is significantly different.

[doodlebug]

curioushair, the topic of women and anger interests me. It's amazing to me that women are still not "allowed" to be angry. (Don't you hate it when random guys are always going up to women and saying, "Why don't you smile?" I always want to say, "Why, would that make you less uncomfortable?")

It seems to me that anger is often the one emotion women are not allowed to feel and express, while anger is often the one emotion men are ALLOWED to feel and express. To the detriment of both/all genders.

But jeez, whenever I read or hear a woman described as "oh, just another angry feminist," I think, why SHOULDN'T women be angry? It's not safe to walk the streets at night for many people, but for EXTRA reasons because of our gender. AND when women start doing better than men in university, the world starts freaking out as though somehow men are in crisis because women are showing an ability to achieve - but meanwhile, statistically, men are still getting the higher-paying jobs when they leave university, and nobody is treating that like a crisis for women. We get crappier wages, we're more likely to be poor than men, we're STILL stuck with the majority burden of childrearing and homekeeping, the majority of our "value" is often STILL placed on our appearance, we are discriminated against in many situations, and we are more likely to experience abuse, assault, and harassment. Why SHOULDN'T I be angry about any of that? And hell, let's leave aside what happens to other women - why shouldn't I be angry when that kind of abuse, discrimination, and oppression happens to ME, because I'm a woman? Why shouldn't I be angry?

Yes, I'm angry. I'm angry that it's 2006 and we still have to fight these old, old battles. AND I'm angry that many people insist that gender equality has already been achieved, when anyone who opens their eyes to reality can see that we haven't even come close yet.

Of all the progress the feminist movement has achieved, I don't think any of it happened because feminists "played nice." Everything women have gained has come after struggle and strife, and considering the resistance that is still put up against the notion of "gender inclusion," I can't see that changing in the near future.