[girltrouble]

bunnyb: "You seem to have self-esteem issues when you put across that you can only be validated/of worth/valued if married."

.
i'm sorry, i don't meant to pick a fight with you, but i don't think that's true about pugs. i don't. i've known some fantastic women, one in particular who did have self esteem issues re:being married. she was very successful, had lots of very cute guys all over town who had major crushes on her. but when she got about 3 dates in, she'd ask if they were looking to settle down, and start putting crazy pressure on them. but how can you say that about someone who has dated someone for 13 years? really? i'm sorry but after 13 years, ANYONE has a right to say, look, we are serious about each other, let's make it official. and i don't think you have self esteem issues for saying it. i do however, think someone who dates someone for 13 years but has issues* with getting married, not only has self esteem issues, but i think they are an asshole to boot. i'm sorry on what planet is that fair? on what planet is that acceptable? it's not even the engagement. that he would propose to her, and then with 4 years to get used to the idea has cold feet? that's adding insult to injury. no, for me the time spent is reason enough for pugs to be in the right in my book.

i think sometimes feminists-- and maybe it's me but i think that's the problem here-- sometimes they have this foregone conclusion. she wants to get married = self esteem issues. but as the song goes, "t'ain't necessarily so." C'MON, AFTER 13 YEARS? after all pugs has done for mr? i'm sorry, but i think that's HORSESHIT. how can you say that? she has put sooo much energy into her relationship, but somehow, all of that is negated, and it's her self-esteem. why would she want, need to get married, unless she doesn't feel good about herself?! it's just this knee jerk reaction, without looking at all at her particular circumstances.

why would she want to get married? how about, she wants to know that he's going to be around tomorrow? how about, she wants to know he takes the relationship as seriously as she does? how about, she wants to know that all of her time and effort wasn't just wasted? there are a kazillion reasons why she might want to get married and after 13 years i'll be fucked if he has a SINGLE GODDAMN REASON that shouldn't have been resolved a long time ago not to get married if he had any stones.

i'm sorry, i couldn't disagree more strongly. i think pugs is in the right. the issue is certainly not with her in my view. it's with the mr. and it's shit or get off the pot time, and he needs to get his shit together and grow some stones and either do it, or tell pugs.

i have to admit, i take this a bit personally. cos i've seen it before. one of my friends from highschool, was one of the biggest sexist ass. he would rate women's breasts and tell them their score to their face, unprompted later after he matured a bit we were roomates, and he started dating this girl, who was nothing like the girls he would oggle over in high school. but she was sooooo good for him. and for a while he would tell me he had no intention of marrying her, and he'd rattle off her flaws as he saw them. but i saw the way she treated him, and he grew up. he stopped talking about that, and he fell for her hard. she got some pretty serious medical problems, but i've never heard him say anything but the best things about her. turns out she doesn't want to get married. she just wanted to know he was committed. and he is. he is one of the best boyfriends ever. but i think there comes a point at which, if you aren't going to be serious, then it is UNETHICAL to keep dating that person. if neither of you want marriage that's one thing, but if one of you does, and you keep your partner on the string.... in my book you are a class a- douche bag.

[stargazer]

what do i do? this is small potatoes to the rest of the issue but there is contracts signed, downpayments, flowers, rings, a hall, a minister, a cake all picked out and ready to go. family and friends are happy and things are ready to go. cancel it all? tell everyone it's off? look like a fool yet again? that i can't make him happy? that i'm staying like the stupid women on the TLC and Hallmark movies? i can't do that. I can't look like a fool anymore. Sell our house, split everything down the middle or yet again wait...wait...wait and hope and pray that he loves me enough and cares about my happiness.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?

my heart truly dropped when i read that you didn't want to look like a fool for not making mr. pugs happy. i believe you have every right to want to get married and enter a loving relationship with someone who wants the same thing. it sounds like the question is if mr. pugs is the man who can contribute to that type of relationship. you deserve a good, loving relationship. i don't see your situation as the result of the result of something you aren't able to do or mr. pugs. it sounds more like a reflection of 2 people who want different things in their lives.

gosh. i hope you come back to the boards or at least lurk. i don't think you are a fool. i hope you are getting married for the right reasons (whatever they maybe) not to appease others. whatever decision you make, the people in your life will support and love you. remember, we want YOU to be happy at this point.


(((LMP)))

[konphusion26]

((((LMP))))

OMG I cannot even imagine what you are going through girl. I have mixed feelings about the situation, so I'll hush up. But I just wanted to offer a hug, and pray that you find the answers you are looking for. And most importantly, I hope you find happiness.

That is a sticky situation you're in hun.

~all the best~

[roseviolet]

Perfectly said, Rudderless.

(((((((((((((((((((LMP)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[rudderlesschild]

*yawning, blinking*

Damn. Stupid Pacific time/graveyard shift.

(((pugs)))

First of all, I want to say that you (and these same Busties) have seen me through some weird times. You have given me some very well-directed and wise words in the past, and it's not hyperbole to say that your encouragement and advice helped this jaded sailor to NOT fuck up her relationship with Beeps.

And it's just that wisdom that assures me that this is not some ring-and-veil obsession. You have put so much of your life into this, and in every way that mattered, you and the Mr. have had a functional, healthy relationship - periodic craziness aside. I can totally see how frustrating it would be to hold this in your hands and wonder why it's not enough for him, why he wouldn't want to hold on to it with you.

Nothing I can say will be the magic words. No one involved is Right or Wrong. You are no less of a woman whether you two are married or not - not that my saying it will change the feeling in your heart.

I ramble. I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you. And we are all (I'm guessing) struggling with the best way to help out someone who's given US so much of herself as well.

~~~~~strength~~~~~~

~~~~~~clarity~~~~~~

[roseviolet]

Dammit, I was afraid she'd do that.

LMP, I know all of this has been painful. That really isn't a surprise, though. I suppose you knew you were bringing up a painful topic. I just hope we haven't scared you off forever. I hope you come back later. CH is absolutely right, you know. You aren't stupid. Not in the least. You're in an extremely difficult situation. From the outside, it can seem easy, but it is sooooooooo much more complicated.

I wish I knew what you wanted to hear today. Did you want advice? Or just support? Or both? Did you hope someone would come along & say it would all be okay? Well, I guess that last one is probably the closest to being true. Every person I know - especially the women in my life - want someone to tell them that everything is going to be okay. So I'm going to say it.

Everything is going to be okay.

Really. Everything is going to be okay. Eventually. Life doesn't always turn out the way you wanted it to or the way you planned it. That seems to be the case for most people. But you know what? It still turns out okay.

I'm going to just forget about Mr. Pugs for a second. Because I think I'm recognizing something in you ... something I saw in myself not so many years ago. I am starting to see a thread here. I think that you are a person who wants to grow. Your heart and spirit ... it wants to be more. It wants to be deeper & richer. And of course you want your relationships to grow as well. I know this because I have been in a very similar place. I understand that longing. It's part of the reason why you started going to church more, right? This longing for growth may've crept up in little ways elsewhere in your life, too. If I'm right - and I hope I am! - I think that's beautiful. It really is. I admire you a lot for reaching towards that because I know how hard it is to take that first step. I know how scary it can be, but how fulfilling, too. I'm just so sorry that things got fucked up. That woman should NOT have said those things to you. Luckily, your minister sounds like a really great human being. I imagine he could be a great source of support for you. Maybe instead of speaking to a therapist, you might feel more comfortable just talking to him. I don't think he would EVER tell you whether you should or shouldn't marry Mr. Pugs. But I do think he might help you make some sense of this mess & maybe help you gain a sense of control over the situation (or just your life in general or whatever).

I wish I could tell you what to do, but the plain truth is that none of us can. You can't break it off because some lady at church told you to. You can't break it off because 9 out of 10 Busties tell you to. Conversely, you can't marry someone just because other people tell you to. Tons of people can give you tons of reasons to make different choices, but I know they're all reasons you've heard before. It's the same old song, just sung by other people. So maybe you're hoping to stumble upon a voice that resonates with you? Maybe? Someone who will say something in such a way that you'll have a miraculous "Ah ha!" moment and you'll suddenly know just what to do.

As I read your posts, there are so many things I could say - mainly stories from the time in my life when I was in a VERY similar position. A part of me wants to tell the whole story. Tell you how one thing happened & then another & something else stepped in and fucked up an already fucked up situation & what I had to do to get over it and blah blah blah blah. But my way isn't the only way. And what was best for my situation may not be best for yours. But I think I will tell you one thing.

I had an "Ah ha" moment of sorts ... only the person who said the right thing to me was myself. I had been seeking advice from others - IRL friends, on-line friends, my therapist, etc. - for years. I had heard SO much advice & a lot of it was excellent advice, but I still was unsure what to do. One day there was just a moment and my eyes were opened. Nothing very special happened & nobody really said anything, but suddenly my gut said, "No more," & I knew what to do. And I did it. I was scared to death that my choice would hurt people, but a voice told me, "They will be okay." Maybe it was God, I don't know. But I knew it was true then and it has proven itself to be true now. Yes, people got hurt (myself included). But they got over it. And as they saw me grow, they came to understand my choice a little better & grew to respect me more than ever.

Listen to your gut. Take a look at those vows, speak to your minister, whatever feels right. And good luck.

[culturehandy]

Pugs, you aren't stupid, what you are is trying to make sure you don't loose the man you are in love with. you are seeking clarity. you aren't weak, you aren't stupid, it just seems like you are really lost right now.

[LoveMyPugs]

roseviolet...what a question for you to ask.

no it won't be. that is another long story. i can't talk about this anymore. i makes me so upset and makes me feel stupid so i'm gonna sign off for now.

i'll be back another time.

thanks everyone

pugs

[roseviolet]

Pugs, who will be the officiant for your ceremony? Is it the minister at your church?

[bunnyb]

pugs, I am not saying that you are weak and it has nothing to do with your views on marriage. I am reiterating what I -and others- have said about therapy. You seem to have self-esteem issues when you put across that you can only be validated/of worth/valued if married. That is why I said that you need to go fix yourself; you need to work on yourself and your own issues. The self esteem issues were there before all of this was; perhaps that's why you joined your church and why you were susceptible to that women, because you don't have much faith in yourself.

I'm only going to say one more thing, as you keep asking me what do you do: you go speak to your partner. You sit down and you talk and you don't stand up again until you sort matters out. If he won't communicate with you, if you can't communicate as other couples do, then you phone and book and appointment with a therapist and you talk it through together with the help of somebody else. You don't look at the bigger picture or the mess that cancelling/postponing the wedding would make, you look at him and you and your longterm future and nothing else. You need to listen to him, beyond the "I don't knows", to what he's really saying, and you have to listen to your heart and then come back and listen to us sermonize some more.

[ketto]

Pugs, I'm just lurking because I think everyone has already said what I'm thinking, but is it possible that you could get him to read this thread? It would give him the opportunity to really see how you feel about this whole thing and maybe think about all the different things that many busties have offered up.

(((pugs))) I feel for you, this is a shitty, unfair situation to be in but remember not to sell yourself short.


(ETA: I'm not a noob, I was formerly erinjane)

[culturehandy]

Hun, why would you think wanting to be married makes you weak?

[LoveMyPugs]

bunnyb - you are right. what do i do? ask him straight out again? tell him i need an answer? he never answers!! i've done this girl...i really have. i have looked him straight in the eyes and said, tell me the truth. do you want to get married yes or no? i need an answer and don't tell me, "i don't know." you know what he says? I DON'T KNOW!! so then i have to walk away or stay and wait more. what if i'm really tired of waiting. what if i feel like this is really never going to change. i have to decide whether i can stay and be happy and not bitter or resent him. or i have to go and be broken hearted and bitter still. sure i'll heal but i'll never be the same again. or do i marry him in a month and hope and pray that i can make him happy and there won't be any resentment? what do i do? this is small potatoes to the rest of the issue but there is contracts signed, downpayments, flowers, rings, a hall, a minister, a cake all picked out and ready to go. family and friends are happy and things are ready to go. cancel it all? tell everyone it's off? look like a fool yet again? that i can't make him happy? that i'm staying like the stupid women on the TLC and Hallmark movies? i can't do that. I can't look like a fool anymore. Sell our house, split everything down the middle or yet again wait...wait...wait and hope and pray that he loves me enough and cares about my happiness.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?

[bunnyb]

He always says, "I don't know."

What do I do with that? Tell me? I don't know if I want to marry YOU!! not i don't know if i want to ever get married..it's i don't know if i want to marry YOU!! at least that's how it feels. it's heartbreaking ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HEARTBREAKING.

You don't marry him. If he can't say that he wants to marry YOU then you can't marry him. Rose's idea is a good one: take your vows and if he can't say them he definitely doesn't mean them/isn't ready for that commitment. Can you marry somebody who can't fully commit to you, who doesn't feel it in his heart? would you want to? It's not fair, it is heartbreaking but it's wrong to marry him when you, him and your relationship are in this state.

I know you want the commitment, that you feel you deserve that commitment and it hasn't been fair stringing you along and keeping you waiting; it's cruel but he hasn't done it out of badness. I know you are impatient and frustrated but you can't make him do something he doesn't want to do (whether he wanted to do it four years ago or not); it's the bottom line, pugs, and where we may see your points and empathise with you we are not going to change our minds on that. It isn't fair to either of you to marry when you're not on the same page. You also don't need to be a wife to be validated, to prove your love for one another. You need to fix YOU.

[Persiflager]

Based on my many hours of lurking LMP, I'll back you up - Mr Pugs position seemed to be basically the same at least a year ago, i.e. before the church incident. But I think everyone's advice still stands.

[LoveMyPugs]

I'm not telling you to wait around - gt definitely isn't- but I am advising that you sit down with mr pugs and ask him straight what he wants and when he wants it.

He always says, "I don't know."

What do I do with that? Tell me? I don't know if I want to marry YOU!! not i don't know if i want to ever get married..it's i don't know if i want to marry YOU!! at least that's how it feels. it's heartbreaking ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HEARTBREAKING.

[roseviolet]

Pugs, I've been married for almost 4 years now, so I think I can speak with a little authority on this subject. And I totally completely 1000% agree with a lot of what the others have said. The words they speak are plain & I know it can seem harsh, but there is a HELL of a lot of love for YOU in everyone's posts. We love you and believe in you so much that we feel we can be honest with you. I hope that's coming across to you.

My feelings on this are ... well, it's complicated. I don't think it's my place to tell you what to do. This decision is far too big & even if I'd been your best friend for my whole life I probably wouldn't feel comfortable telling you who you should or shouldn't marry. All that being said, I hope I can offer a little bit of help.

Yes, marriage is about compromise. BUT actually getting married should not be about compromise. Both parties who are entering the marriage must want it. Plain and simple. Mr. Pugs is sending mixed signals about that. He asks you to marry him, then he says he doesn't want to get married. After many years of engagement you two finally set a date, but then he threatens to leave you. I'm sure he's wonderful in lots of ways, but that is a huge steaming pile of bullshit. And you don't deserve it. I don't care if you haven't been the perfect girlfriend. You still don't deserve it.

I know that this has never been about the wedding day alone, LMP. I know for you it has always been about having a genuine commitment from Mr. Pugs. I totally and completely understand that. And if I were in your shoes - dating and even living with the same person for 13-fucking-years and still hearing him say that he doesn't want to "commit" to me AFTER he has asked me to MARRY him 4 whole years ago - I'd be fucking furious. FURIOUS!!! I mean, what the hell is his problem? What have the last 13 years been about if they haven't been proof that you two can be happily committed to one another? It seems pretty clear to me that he has already made a commitment to you. I don't understand his hesitation either.

But no matter his reasons, it sounds like he has some very strong hesitations. This doesn't sound like the usual pre-marriage jitters. Personally, I think it's perfectly natural - even healthy - to feel nervous about getting married. The hour before Sheff & I were legally hitched, I got really sick to my stomach because I was so overwhelmed by the Enormity Of It All. But then I just looked at Sheff & remembered how much I love him & it was okay. Marriage With A Capital "M" scared me, but getting married to Sheff was something totally different - something I felt really good about.

Here's the one big thing I want you to do - preferably this week. I want you and Mr. Pugs to look at the vows that you are going to swear to on the wedding day. Really read them & let them soak in. Can you look in his eyes & say those vows with warmth in your heart & joy on your face? Can he do the same? Can he say those words to you & feel in his heart that it's the right thing to do? If one or both of you feel uncomfortable with the marriage vows, then you need to either (1) change the vows to something you can both agree to or, failing that, (2) call off the wedding. The vows are the one true thing about the wedding that is just about the two of you and nothing else. It is an expression of love, but it also lays out some of your expectations for your life together.

Please do that together. Give him a chance to speak from his heart about it. Hopefully it will shed some light on the situation.


ETA: You posted the story about that woman from your church while I was composing this. Let me digest that info for a bit & I'll see if I have anything else to offer.

[LoveMyPugs]

my only point here is that the "I don't want to get married" rant of mr. pugs was there long before the church even came into the picture. that is my problem and no one seems to be on my side as far as that goes. i know the last six months have been hell on both of us and that i am to blame for the majority of it but had we already been married it wouldn't even have been an issue and his silly fears about his friend's marriage AND THEY ARE SILLY are the reason we weren't married in the first place. can no one understand me on this? he even admits it himself. he's put marriage off way too long and for no good reason. i'm hurt. i feel rejected. what? am i not good enough to marry? i give him all i have. is it not enough? what else do i have to do to be wife material. no wonder i lost my mind after i left that woman's house. it's not like mr. pugs is building me up as a good woman and fiance to him. that anything i do for him is ever appreciated, respected and honored. wtf? fuck therapy. i'm not justifying his bullshit anymore. i deserve this one thing. he needs to man up.

[bunnyb]

NOT at the expense of his happiness. You deserve to be happy TOGETHER but this way one of you is going to be unhappy and it's not fair if it's you, it's not fair if it's him but somebody is going to be. I think you have to be the bigger person and see that you can't force him into something he is not happy with. I know it's unfair, it's always unfair when your partner wants something that you don't, or vice versa; it fucking sucks, in fact, but you have to suck it up. Pugs, he does not want to marry you; it may be a temporary thing and he may be ready at the end of this year or next but just now you cannot marry him if he doesn't want it. It's not fair on either of you; you love him too much to do that to him, don't you?

I'm not telling you to wait around - gt definitely isn't- but I am advising that you sit down with mr pugs and ask him straight what he wants and when he wants it. If he says never, then it's decision time.

We all deserve to get what we want but not at the expense of somebody else. I've repeated myself (and other people) because it has to sink in, pugs. By marrying mr pugs next month you are trapping him and it's no better than secretly getting pregnant. He wants to be with you, he loves you and has devoted his life to you but more commitment is something he is not ready to give at the moment. Whether he would have felt the same this time last year, who knows, but at the moment he cannot enter into marriage with you.

If he actually makes it to the end of the aisle and goes through with it, when he doesn't want to, and makes you guilty for it for the rest of your life together? then he's the pussy; standing up to you and telling you something you obviously don't want to hear and hurting you despite loving you, that's being a man. Our perceptions of this are completely opposite because I'm on the outside, completely unbiased.

[culturehandy]

((((((pugs)))))))

Ahhh, now this is where I was going, I knew there was more to the story. I agree with Bunny, right now is NOT the right time to get married, I think you two need to step back from this Demon that this wedding/marriage has become. I am also firmly with the other busties that therapy, counselling whatever independent of the church will help you two tremendsouly. I say independent of the church because, while they offer a huge support for you LMP, mr. Pugs might see them as being biased, and that in turn will sabatoge anything that help has to offer.

No one is saying you two don't have to get married, but you all need someone to talk to, someone who is not biased and independent, I think the mind set both of you are in right now is not one where you should be entering something so intense. Go to counselling, talk to someone, then when you are both happy and emotionally healthy THAT'S when you should enter a marriage. Marriage and weddings are supposed to be a happy time, are they stressful, yes, but relationship ending? HELLS NO!

ETA: You shouldn't have to wait forever, but nor should you push it. Right now isn't the time. This whole thing has taken on a life of it's own. It's the elephant in the room if you will.