[faerietails2]

last year in my modern japanese women course, someone brought all these postcards of ancient japanese artwork that she'd gotten from the museum of sex. it may have been centuries old, but those japanese were into some dirrrrrrrrrrty stuff! it was awesome!

[tesao]

men going down on women is not a new thing. check out vintage porn sometime, dating as far back as you can, black and white photos, drawings from before the camera was invented. there are depictions of oral sex from pretty much all perspectives (men on women, women on men, women on women, men on men, etc) i really enjoy the vintage photos -- before plastic surgery, when people looked real, expressions looked real, or beatific, or aroused, or just plain horny. when people were photographed/drawn as a whole being, not as genitalia. where they actually looked like they were having FUN (gasp) or worse yet, getting off.

and yah, i'm pretty sure that the patriarchy made them do that. especially the have fun part. (although, funny, none of them were wearing cardboard collars). and since the photos were black and white, everyone had brown eyes.

[girltrouble]

not shooting anyone. that's a stereotype. for a while there were a few mc's(rappers) who were talking about how they wouldn't go down, but very quickly there were ones that did, and didn't mind talking verrrrry graphically about it. besides, i think there is only so long that women of any stripe would put up with being expected to go down without any reciprocity.

far as i can tell the mainstreaming of 'going down' probably happened in the 60's/70's with books like joy of sex, and the sexual revolution, although, i sort of remember something about rusty warren saying something and she was 50's? i'll have to see if i have her records still-- but that could take months....

[knorl05]

*dont shoot the messenger* through the years i've heard that african amer. men do not prefer to perform cunnilingus. that may have been the basis of his joke.

ps. (i realize this may be stating the obvious..but..)we will always have different preferences.. maybe a porn-free world would be possible if the self righteous puritans had their way. if that were to be the case, i'm sure they'd cut out many other forms of self expression and personal enjoyment as well. some cultures see art forms like dancing as bad, that's just the way it is. that's why we have to continue speaking out for our rights.. i just think the problem comes in when we work to change others rather than co-exist.

[greenbean]

**squeeee**
I know. I'm way too happy right now to be peeved about Maddy's low bow.


Back to porn though, does anyone know if men performing oral on women in porn is a relatively new thing? My housemates and I were watching an old Redd Fox stand-up comedy video and he made jokes that led me to believe that it was just starting to pop up in the early 80s...

And a comment on this from Twisty's blog: "A world without porn, however desirable, is nevertheless unimaginable." Of course its unimaginable! Porn has existed since cavepeople drew on walls!

[faerietails2]

I'm sorry, I'm too focused on my envy over greenbean's clit-licking hot Aussie to have anything witty to contribute at this time...The patriarchy made me type that. (The patriarchy made me envious, too, btw.)

[girltrouble]

...

[greenbean]

Rudderlesschild! OMG, you bust me up!

Seriously, I *knew* this was gonna happen. Still disapointed, but not surprised. I bet Twisty and Maddy are basking in the post-coitus-like afterglow of their hero worship right now. Good for them. Remember, this is the poor lady who has said in other posts "one day you'll hit menopause and wonder what the big fuss [sex] was about".

Twistys always good for a laugh. I especially like that she equates an arched back with hokey constructs of porn (along with um, corny fashion accessories, ha! gawd shes reaching). I mean seriously, has anyone ever gone down on her? I'm thinking back to this weekend and the hot Aussie that oh-so-tenderly licked my clit into frantic, shooting spasms and somehow my back arching was simply a brainwashed reaction that I was imitating from porn?!??!! HA! I'd give anything to have that dude do his magic on her and see how well she could stay straight-backed and quiet. Gah! Now I'm horny. Must be sunset.

[girltrouble]

it's really funny to go back and read this thread from say 4 mos ago. it's not as if some people didn't agree with things maddy said. quite a few people had posts where they would agree with various things she said-- myself included-- she seems to have this victim complex. and i especially loved the part where she talked about the name of the thread. that's what i love about the lounge-- the threads have these great, tounge-firmly-planted-in-cheek-titles...she's taken leave of her sense and sense of humor.

like i said, i have always wanted to hear maddy's pov, and yes sometimes-- when she was talking out of her ass-- it pissed me off, but i always thought that it was a matter of her being an honest broker saying things because she had an honest question, not because she felt like she knew it all, even though she would let slip and her condesention/arrogance would rear it's ugly head.

i don't claim to know the answers to the universe (unlike twisty), i just know what i think, and i like being challenged on it, because i have to either back up my ideas with reason, rethink or agree. unfortunately, not everyone is interested in having their ideas challenged, and they have to do things like maddy. while maddy's actions are rather dispicable, to me are more, well, to put it kindly, a rather pathetic means of reinforcing her own, half baked ideas. but that's who she is.

i don't want to dwell on her sad action, i would rather take this as a funny kind of gift. while i am tempted to post something on twisty's blog, i don't really see the point as it would be burried in the ocean of her yes women. (although i am glad tes did, cos tes is always awesome!) i am more interested in her reply as a response to my view of feminism, porn and sexuality. it's like a more articulate maddy posted something right here in the lounge.....

i know the lounge isn't the monolithic place that maddy sees it as, but then, if you don't agree with her 100%, well... she'll post something on a blog about you...lol. but i want to know, what do you agree with in twisty's missive, what don't you? we can also disect some of the "yes women's" posts...

personally.... i think this is awesome. besides:

from twisty's blog:
I totally agree with your brilliant analysis!

gosh, thanks twisty! hey, can i repost your post?

I can't stop you, but, you know, what the fuck? Not to mention it's kind of dumb. The more brilliant move would be for you to quote a snippet or two and devise your own response to the issue. This is what separates discourse from cutting and pasting.

really? do you want me paraphrasing you? meh. i don't see how a few snippets makes it more brilliant. besides, i have no problem with cutting and pasting, non-fascistic feminism, non-bianary thinking, or careless punctuation for that matter.

[erinjane]

Wow.

Maddy, maybe you're not posting anymore, but without a doubt you're still checking in. So here's what I have to say to you: through all these little hash-it-out sessions, I'd still always valued your contributions, no matter how much I may or may not have disagreed with some of your points. But this victim bullshit is just despicable. It's fucking unbelievable. I'm speechless.

Exactly what I was thinking. I've always given maddy the benefit of the doubt but that was extremely insulting. I also find it extremely offensive when people try to tell me that I have no agency, and that I'm only the way I am because of 'the patriarchy', as if I haven't thought about these issues long and hard myself. One of the things I found so frustrating about some branches of feminism is that insistence that women don't have any agency. Anyways, the whole thing is bullshit.

[tesao]

*peeps around corner into thread*

i'm not around the lounge very much these days, but when i am here i lurk in this thread. i've been lurking for a while, but hesitated to post any more. when i read that link, i decided i needed to unlurk and address it.

i've got to agree with whoever it was who said that they feel like they ran into a junior high back-stabbing locker room.

that said, my vote is to ignore her. i honestly do not care what she thinks of me, or if she or anyone else thinks that i am a feminist or not. i know that i am, and my actions speak for me. i also know that i happen to like porn. if i pay attention to anything that this type of person says, i am only feeding them and the attitude that they espouse.

i've noticed lately that the porn that arouses me the most involves no sound track at all other than the people who are involved in it. i like amateur porn the best. the people having sex are obviously having a great time. they are smiling at each other, and making the kinds of noises that are real - at least they come across that way to me. i don't really care if they are in love with each other or not. i'm not watching porn as a way to prevent hiv/aids transmission a la the united states government, which involves AB (and when all else fails, C). A being Abstain, B being Be Faithful and C being (but hush, we aren't allowed to talk about it!) condoms when you are not moral enough to stick to A and B.

this policy brought to you by Ambassador Tobias, recent and now former director of United States Agency for International Development (USAID), director of US Foreign Assistance, and head of the Global Aids effort -- who resigned on friday when it was revealed that he was on the books of a high class call girl operations whose services he had availed himself of on numerous occasions.

/end rant

[nickclick]

ooh sunsets... my nipples are erect!

another one:
"Porn in a post-patriarchal world? Someone you love who loves you back, in person."

yes, being near the person i love turns me on. but sometimes, a hot sexy ass on someone i could care less about does the trick too.

my witty banter aside, i think what we're trying to discuss (not argue, by the way) is a way to say - we are feminists, we don't like this mainstream shit, but we do like sex, and we do like this, this and summa that.

as a feminist who likes sex, not only in the context of my LT relationship under a setting sun, that's what i'm trying to figure out for myself, at least. and the best way is by discussing with other feminists who like sex.

[skinwithoutscars]

you know, i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing what kind of porn we may or may not watch, as examples within the framework of a debate, that come from our personal experiences.

in fact, i'm pretty goddamn sure that discussing examples from our personal lives - both positive and negative - of cultural norms is one of the basic tenets of feminism.

i don't think the claim was ever made that magical feminist porn will "fix" mainstream porn. i think the discussion of alternatives is a valid one. it's like the riot grrrl zines of the early 90s - creating something out of & that reflects our experience so we can relate to it, versus the crap in u.s. today or newsweek that probably bears very little resemblance to our lives. i know of very few people who are under the illusion that alterna-porn, by itself, will radically alter mainstream porn.

but, i suppose i've been brainwashed by patriarchy into thinking i have freedom from groupthink, and really i'm about to meet the end of 1984 or something. oy.

[nickclick]

hmmm maybe some of the commenters there will travel over and post some dialogue here? oh wait, we :

"yell.... constantly because [she] think(s) porn is bad for women"

"talk about the feminist/alternative porn that [we] watch"

"seem to think that creating an alternative will somehow stop the mainstream degrading porn. Or something."

"are too scared to admit the truth? I know it’s painful to see the truth, so maybe that’s it."

"so brainwashed by mainstream pornification that they truly believe this stuff"


wow, i never thought i was so narrow minded !???!!

[thereshegoes]

wow.

you know, "m," I read twisty's blog from time to time, and even if i don't agree with her 100% on this issue, i still respect a lot of what she has to say. i feel like i got caught up in some jr. high backstabbing locker-room bullshit here.

that's fucked up. i have always taken what you have to say seriously and even agreed with you from time to time. until the last you got snippy with me, i felt some empathy with you as i know where you are coming from. but this is just nasty. i am sure you can spin anything to make anyone agree with you, but you know this sort of shit does not win anyone over to your ideas.

make no mistake---i am not berating you for your anti-porn ideas, i am berating you for your behavior.

[mornington]

doesn't sound like our mandi...

skin, word.


wow, maddy. that was pretty underhanded. Niiiice.

[skinwithoutscars]

if you read the comments, is that our mandie posting, or did maddy also steal mandolyn's handle?

just sayin.

ps, i find it kind of insulting how, in the comments, a grown woman's consent to bdsm - which i distinguish entirely from porn - is similar to the "consent" a child "gives" a pedophile. sounds just like rick santorum comparing homosexuality to bestiality, if you ask me. one involves consenting adults, the other involves a consenting adult and an entity that cannot give consent for the sexual activity.

oh, wait, women can't give consent under patriarchy. silly me, it's all the same.

i see no value in sitting around being victimized by a shitty system i was handed at birth. i prefer to have fulfilling relationships and live my life as best i can, both within and outside of this paradigm.

[knorl05]

re: the article

who's the one who is not to be trusted here? i think it's all summed up in this statement here: "I'm a confused 30 year old"

[Onna-Otaku]

**de-lurks**

Wow... so she found someone to agree with her every word? good for her, I guess...

**re-lurks**

[faerietails2]

Wow.

Maddy, maybe you're not posting anymore, but without a doubt you're still checking in. So here's what I have to say to you: through all these little hash-it-out sessions, I'd still always valued your contributions, no matter how much I may or may not have disagreed with some of your points. But this victim bullshit is just despicable. It's fucking unbelievable. I'm speechless.