[bunnyb]

Have people seen this?

[anna k]

The best erotica I ever read was the Penguin Book of Women's Erotica, a book spanning stories written by famous and non-famous writers from the 1880s to the 1990s. The stories were so much more than regular sex, they were textured and layered and stuck in my mind long afterwards. I watched porn to see what kind of sex acts I would like, and the coldness and mechanics of it turned me off.

[thereshegoes]

the result is a rather reactionary manhood where (most) guys are always worried about being perceived as being a man, and agree/say/do almost anything to be part of some imaginary concoction of what it means to be a man. and part of this bargain with the devil is a kind of silence. a silence about, in terms of our conversation here, what they find attractive. women that are not stick figures, that are ethnic, that are smart, and can hold their own. in many ways they opt, for masculinity's sake, to wear a mask. i say all of this with your last para in mind. is it not good when that mask gets another crack in it's exterior, and men can be even a little more honest about what they find attractive?

interesting. i never thought of it that way. i have come across porn that incorporates a whole range of people, all colors, genderqueer types, big gals, trans people, even amputees, but i found it in a feminist/queer sex shop in new york (toys in babeland, if i may pay respect). do you think the average-porn buying audience, the frat guy in iowa let's say, would tap into this market if exposed? it would be great if they did. perhaps i falsely assume men think in "stuff" magazine cover blurbs, even though i don't think in "cosmo" blurbs.


the last few posts about SG co-opting the culture made me think about my experience in high school, which i've shred about in other contexts, how when i was in 8th grade, dying your hair with manic panic made you a freak and a weirdo, but after nirvana got big in the 9th grade, more people got hip to it and we became more accepted. by 11th grade, the cheerleaders had manic panic'd hair and all the usual tiers of hotness developed (popular girls with pink hair dominating weirdopunk girls with pink hair). i wonder if that's what happened with suicide girls, it started out really punkrawk and edgy, and just became piercing playboy.

[mornington]

I think that's what I was getting at. Anything that widens the accepted mainstream is - to a certain degree - good. If more people accept something - whether it's tats or boundaries or required healthchecks or women as equals - then it becomes standard, and therefore a change towards the positive.

Erotica, to me, leaves a lot more to the imagination. I think that's why I prefer it to porn - like annak, I find porn a bit too mechanical. Erotica isn't *just* about sex - I think there's a lot more at work there in most cases; it's more thoughtful, as it were.

[nickclick]

My issue is that then that becomes "mainstream" (see Vivid-Alt) and we are back in the same place where certain types of alt are acceptable and those on the outside are still on the outside.

let's take 1990s alternative music for example. what made nirvana etc. so "alternative" is such a part of mainstream music now, yes, even at it's watered-down versions. but, that makes new music work harder to be alternative, and hopefully the cycle will continue, adding more and more interesting factors into the boring mainstream, even if slowly.

for the record, i think SG is pretty boring and watered-down, but it's popular and worth mentioning.

i see erotica as more creative in trying to get you off. it allows you to use your mind to get hot. porn is much more direct, no?

[lilyblue]

What’s the difference between pornography and erotica?

I don’t think that all sexual content is pornographic. In fact, I prefer the term sex film as it seems more direct and less dated to me than either term. Pornography to me signifies exploitation.

(source Venus Hottentot, Director of Afrodite Superstar)

What do you all think of the quote I just posted? I think it goes along with what anna k is referring to. Also think that this attitude is the future of adult films. Most of what I have seen in mainstream porn is ridiculous. Everything from the truly unhealthy ATM (ass to mouth) and crap like DVDA (double vag/double anal) to the just plain obnoxiousness of the money shot (hmmm, boring!). I am getting excited about films that feature real couples and real sex interspersed with actual storyline.

I think katiebelle asked a good question: can we show some of the stuff that is in mainstream porn and have it still be feminist? I mean, I feel sexually submissive and I would love to see that shown without it being offensive.

mornington, i get what you are saying about SG. My issue is that then that becomes "mainstream" (see Vivid-Alt) and we are back in the same place where certain types of alt are acceptable and those on the outside are still on the outside.

faerie, i like this thread too. it makes me think a lot about what i believe.

[anna k]

I was watching porn on Pornotube, and got bored with it. I actually prefer sex in regular movies than regular porn, it seemed mechanical of dick and pussy and tongue, less sexy.

[mornington]

that's a great article, faerie! Perhaps what we are talking about is ethical porn - stuff that's fair, paid well (unionised? I'm not too familiar with the union system in the US) and made with consideration - the respect for boundaries that the article and GT talked about. That article, to me, made the industry far more appealing than a lot of what you hear. I think the openness is a good thing - perhaps openness makes for good porn?

[girltrouble]

yay faerie!

that article is awesome. it talks about some of the things we were talking about, but i love that the guy at the helm seems to be very earnest about his porn being a postive thing. he is very indicative of most of the people i've met who are in the bdsm community. they take it very seriously, and are concerned with it's image and that same demystifying that the article talks about. but more, he seems to have that higher purpose i was talking about, and he even talks about it. i think you need that thing that says it's not just about making money, and that you would draw the line at a place where you find it ethically. you can do that work without selling your soul....

i have to say the thing i love best is that he does the pre- and post scene interviews and posts those as well, because it reminds you that these are real people, it isn't just about money, and, that if there is something the person doesn't like that is to be respected. it's so interesting to see how he has taken things in bdsm and incorperated them-- the pre and post interviews are very much a pillar of the bdsm community, as is respecting limits.

very interesting also was the talk about the mission, that's my old hood. i lived there before the dot-com boom/bust and loved it, but went back to visit a few years ago and hated it, it was super yuppified, and they did indeed push many of the latino families out, which was a huge part of what made it such a wonderful enclave. i also have to admit when they were talking about taking over that building, i couldn't help but drool, oh the scenes you could do there....*sigh*

[faerietails2]

*delurks* i love this thread.

there's an article in today's ny times magazine about online porn. it's kinda long, so i've only had a chance to skim it, but what i've read so far has been interesting:

A Disciplined Business

[mornington]

it's late, and I'm not really thinking properly, so this might seem a bit... holey.

on the SG thing - as nickclick said, it's little steps. I think the popularity of SG goes to show that there is a massive market for "alternatives" to the stereotypical porn look. Yes, the beauty it depicts is still relatively conventional, but... it seems to me to be at least a step in the right direction. It isn't feminist by a long way - certainly there seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the guy who owns it, and I think there is a degree of exploitation - certainly now. And going by what GT said, I think every crack in the mask is a good thing. Put it this way, my bf is into SG. I'd rather he was into that than "mainstream" porn of the blonde/big tits variety.

I think portrayal of women as equals is the major premise for feminist/good porn, but I'm not sure how that would work for submissives, as GT said. I suppose then you would be have to be aware of the director, company etc that produce the film for it's feminist attitudes.

also... for some reason the SG merchandise reminds me of victoria's secret stuff. or is that just me?

[nickclick]

remember a few years ago, chyna (the wwf wrestler) posed for playboy, and she made a statement about feeling empowered because she was the first woman with her muscular athletic body to do so. at the time i thought it stupid, but i guess it's little steps that kill stereotypes.

[girltrouble]

i get what you're saying, shegoes, but mainstream movie making is no less about the buck than the craft. i think we limit ourselves by simply dismissing porn as porn and throwing up our hands. i can think, i think, of 3 asian directors who started by making porn, who make some of the most interesting films right now. it's kind of funny, one of them makes disturbingly gory/violent movies (takashi miike, audition, ichi the killer, doa series), another makes disturbing/disturbingly interesting meditations on violence and buddism (kim-ki duk, the isle, 3iron, spring summer fall and spring), and the last makes disturbing movies about japanese life, (kiyoshi kurosawa, pulse, bright future, cure). if nothing else asian porn has become a training ground for really great film makers. my point is that if the end product is disposable, the act of creating the film should, or doesn't have to be.

and while i might be inclined to agree with you about how porn uses women's bodies without thinking about women, what makes alt porn's approach more dignified? is it, a more femme pov(flowers, candles, emphasis on romance)? if that's the case why do i hear women talk about how much they like gay (as opposed to dyke) films because of their directness and roughness? or is that the same thing as why guys like mainstream 'girl on girl' (as opposed to dyke) films? what makes it more respectful? is it the roles? is it because women are portrayed as equals? cool, but what if you are a submissive woman? i ask not because i think i know, but rather i don't know.

and again, while i understand what you are getting at in your last para, and i feel the same way (hey, i'd never make the cut no matter what the physical criteria, by reason that i was born a boy, and still have a 'dingus' that i rather like), so do i dismiss everything that makes things a little bit better until the (porn) world can see me as every bit the woman as jenna jameson, or do i cheer when that concept of mainstream beauty is broadened even a bit, and work to love myself personally, and encourage people i know to be honest about what they find sexy/beautiful(etc), and promote/create porn that already sees me as sexy/beautiful(etc)?

having been a guy, i can tell you, there are all sorts of things that many guys think are sexy that are left out of that mainstream porn straightjacket. but, and i say this not to excuse guys, but rather as a matter of explaining my truth, and understanding of masculinity first hand-- masculinity is a very fragile thing. think about it. what does it take to make you think you might not be a woman, or woman "enough?" i am not talking about insecure about being a woman, but that you are not a woman at all? for all the macho bluster we are used to, it takes very little to impune a man's masculinity. the result is a rather reactionary manhood where (most) guys are always worried about being perceived as being a man, and agree/say/do almost anything to be part of some imaginary concoction of what it means to be a man. and part of this bargain with the devil is a kind of silence. a silence about, in terms of our conversation here, what they find attractive. women that are not stick figures, that are ethnic, that are smart, and can hold their own. in many ways they opt, for masculinity's sake, to wear a mask. i say all of this with your last para in mind. is it not good when that mask gets another crack in it's exterior, and men can be even a little more honest about what they find attractive?

[thereshegoes]

well i think porn is so often an exploitative business, rather than an artistic community. most mainstream porn makers are more about the buck than craft. it's like a sweatshop of sex.

i also think most porn uses women's bodies without thinking of women as the audience. that makes them somewhat disposable. most alternative porn that directly reaches for a female audience treats women with dignity.


i also have to add that it is hard for me to think of any porn as personally "empowering" if i would not be allowed into the paradigm of sexiness. that's why i can see burlesque and annie sprinkle as empowering things, as they would accept me, but not "suicide girls"-as i know i would not make the cut. it is hard to be empowered by yet another cultural message that i am too fat and ethnic-looking to be sexy.

[girltrouble]

wasn't there some blow up where the women who supposedly owned and ran sg were found to be figureheads?

i dunno, how i call it is, if it's different then it's good if it's just...(fill in the blank). the problem is we are told there is one beauty standard and if you don't live up to that then you are not/less desirable. so even if its just piercings. that's not a mainstream idea of beauty, so it broadens our concepts of beauty. that, however, only goes so far, and shegoes called it. it has to be about doing right by the people making and starring in the films too. there has to be some ethical higher ground, and if what she means by

in order for porn to be feminist, it actually has to be made by feminists.

she isn't saying that the producers need to be female, but rather take feminist ideas to heart, and treat the women in the movies respectfully, they try to use their resources to train the next group of film or porn makers whatever craft they've learned.

but i wonder if it might be a bad idea to ask for the moon. ie that they do it all. blaxploitaion started not as a way to exploit blacks, but to speak to an audience that had previously been ignored, and while it grew into something that some say exploited them, it was always a thing that on some level always supported black artists, even when the people on screen were reinforcing stereotypes, they put many black people behind the camera to work, forged new audiences that would support them, and trained young black people skills to be in film. when the NAACP essentually put an end to blaxplotation, they put an end to all the good things too. it wasn't still spike lee came on the scene years later that a new generation of blacks became interested in film production.

personally, i feel this way about tranny films, my inital reaction is, anything that broadens our ideas of beauty (and well, i do benefit from it) is good, but how much good is done when they use every insulting name to refer to transexuals, how much good is done when the t-girls in front of the camera, are getting piss money and the guy shooting them on a shoestring budget is making hundreds of thousands. i read an interview with a former ts pornstar who when asked why she suddenly disappeared at the height of her success, she said, "the business changed. we went from this business where everybody was doing well, i was making about 5000 per film, as were all the girls i knew to 200 to 500 a film over night, and i just thought, this person makes all this money, why can't we all make a living? i wouldn't work for so little pay and they found there were a bunch of girls who didn't know any better and they went to them."

to me, that's that higher purpose, that higher ground. i don't see why you wouldn't want to take care of your employees, they are doing you favor being in your films. they could always make their own. but, then i am such a lefty, if i was making porn i'd probably encourage them to unionize just in the hopes that the idea would spread to mainstream porn...


ETA: yay for girl bomb! good to see you on here again!!!((((((gb)))))

[thereshegoes]

i remember people arguing in the old lounge in sayyyy 2003, about suicide girls, and i think the strongest argument people had was that it still depicted thin, conventional, white-bread beauty. i don't know if that makes it unfeminist, but i didn't really find it progressive. it seemed to be the same old shiz with tats and hair dye.

i also took issues with the economics of suicide girls, the spooky guy seemed to be really making a bundle but not paying out very much, and regularly insulting the girls. maybe in order for porn to be feminist, it actually has to be made by feminists.

[girlygirlgag]

I think Suicide Girls started out as an empowering alternative to nudie mags. It had that "Pin-Up/Art Vibe" to it, that made it more than a skin rag, but has deteriorated into playmates with a few tattoos.

[nickclick]

i dunno if i totally agree with tyger's analogy and conclusion of - if you don't like it, don't buy it - because, as girlbomb said, and i agree, the bad stuff reinforces bad stereotypes and promotes bad behavior.

i don't believe, though, that stereotypes as girlbomb described start or end with mainstream porn, or crappy rap videos/lyrics, video games, etc. for that matter. these things are all results and products of a society that accepts those stereotypes.

i do agree with tyger's solution of finding healthier alternatives and promoting them.

i know this was a topic either here or somewhere else in the lounge, but what do you all think of suicide girls? is that a healthier alternative? a step in the right direction? a bunch of the same old same old? or such old news that it's not worth discussing?

[girlbomb]

A good deal of commercially produced porn appears to show contempt for women's health and women's pleasure, which is disturbing. This very prevalent kind of porn appears to both signify and reinforce greater social stereotypes about women as unimportant, powerless, and worthy of unsolicited degradation. It also reinforces bad health habits. What are my options to protest, when faced with this socially acceptable strain of sexism? Is it unacceptable to decry "bad porn" for what it is?

[tyger]

maddy, i really think that the reason the debates occur here is because you state your opinion on porn (porn bad, in simplest of terms), other people begin to discuss alternatives, and you want to stay on the topic of 'porn bad'

it's like...okay, i'll try and make an analogy. there are cheap, bad sex toys on the market. they leach chemicals, smell gross, and are slimy. we'll call them the 'mainstream porn' of the vibrator world. they suck, and lots of people don't like them. the solution is twofold: one, stop buying the crap (don't watch the mainstream porn) and two, educate yourself on the good sex toys, and use that knowledge when shopping (figure out what porn is woman friendly/doesn't make you uncomfortable, and watch that). if you don't like vibrators in general, fine, just don't go on like all vibrators such because there's a majority that do.

i've watched degrading porn that is completely uncaring about the health of the naughty bits of its participants (a penis going directly from a girls ass to her vagina, for example). it made me uncomfortable, i never wanted to see it again (i got it for free from someone who had got it as a gag birthday gift, and me and my friends watched it and played 'yell at the porn like it's a sporting event') it was the shadier underbelly of gross mainstream porn, i think. but i've watched documentaries on like in porn, and i'm guessing that since the cbc didn't have any vested interest in portraying porn in a good light that the majority of people who were there because they wanted to be, along with a few interviews with people who had decided they had enough and got out of porn gave a pretty good idea of the more reputable porn distrubuters, which is people choosing to be there and getting out when they don't.

also, yeah, vhs won over betamax because of porn. you know why? demand for porn is never going to go away, because no matter how many feminist conferences on porn there are, or however many discussion threads there are on the web, there are horny men working at oil camps and teenage boys and girls and people of all genders who are genuinely turned on by it, so it comes down to our personal consumption, and not trying to force our views on porn on others, or belittling and saying people are anti-feminist because they aren't anti-porn vigilantes. so everyone grow the fuck up and show some respect, and maddy get off your horse and talk without equating porn-watching with woman hating, and have a nice debate like adults, or don't say anything at all