[erinjane]

I have to admit, maddy, i kinda thought you were arguing towards 'no porn' as well. I'm with thereshegoes as far as being confused as to what you're feelings are on what you want.

[thereshegoes]

Who the heck is arguing for no depiction of sex ever???????????????

well, then i guess i don't get what you are arguing for, as you seem to be against alternative/feminist porn. . . what sort of depictions of sex would you feel comfortable with?

you know, as i am trying to understand where you are coming from, 15 question marks is a little strong.

[girltrouble]

maddy.
i have to say i am disappointed in you.
i have honestly wanted to hear what you had to say, and have heard your points, and thoughtfully wrote my reaction to them, only to be again dismissed by you. but really, if you are going to say shit like this:

I can state my opinion [on other sites], and my feelings, and they are listened to and considered, not thrown out and ignored.

the least you could do is treat people the way you want to be treated, and oh, i don't know, actually do some listening and considering? me thinks you need to check y-o-u-r-s-e-l-f.

if you aren't really going to even bother to reply when someone takes the time to respond to one of your posts, then why come here?
just to post links? chica, we have pornbots and trolls for that. we don't need you to fuel that fire. i didn't click on the links because i have dial up, an old puter, and i don't bother with audio or video on my computer. i don't click on any links. but more to the point, if you are seriously interested in having your ideas listened to and considered, shouldn't you at least be able to state them for yourself, not just post a link?

meh, since you don't think i have anything i have to say is worth listening to or considering, i think the least i can do is offer you is reciprocity.
laters chickie. i'm done witcha. it's aaaaaaaaalll yours.

*switches maddy's profile to ignore.*

[maddy29]

Who the heck is arguing for no depiction of sex ever???????????????

GGG-watch the first video, maybe then you'll have something to say.

[thereshegoes]

i have to say there are some good points raised in the conference, but i think it will be easier to get rid of misogynist porn if there is an alternative, than if we just argue "no depiction of sex ever". people like naked people too much.

i understand the argument that all sex media is contingent on the objectification of women, and that men cannot be objectified under the patriarchy, but good looking naked people will always be fun to look at.


("playgirl" does NOT count as "good looking naked people")

[girlygirlgag]

This thread is so deja vu, it is not even interesting anymore.

[maddy29]

Here are links to the entire conference! I'm excited to see all the parts I missed. Enjoy...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...nti+pornography

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...nti+pornography

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=68...nti+pornography

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=50...nti+pornography

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4...nti+pornography

[girltrouble]

lol... maddy, i do like seeing you here, so i pm'd you, but i don't think i was attacking you, rather, just talking about the things you brought up. and in all honesty, both you and i have had our freak outs on this site, so it's not that it's just you being attacked. *shrug* i must admit that i find it funny that you say i am on some sort of attack when you put these backhanded and/or condesending comments in your posts, perhaps you don't realize you are doing it, but it seems rather apparent to me. here, let me quote your post that started this whole thing:

I went to that porn conference at Wheelock college, and it was amazing. I finally felt understood. I finally felt like I was around feminists who weren't compromising at all. It was amazing. .....I couldn't stomach any more, even though it was SOOOO amazing to be in the presence of these powerful women who will not back down!

The first hour was a talk about how 2nd wave and 3rd wave feminists struggle to talk about this, and about some of the lies that the 3rd wavers have sadly bought into. IT wasn't a "tsk tsk 3rd wavers" kind of thing, but it was talking about how porn has become so mainstream in our culture...

One of the most important things I took away from this conference, was that the VAST majority of porn is women-hating. There is just no question about that. IF you look at what movies sell, what companies make the most money, the evidence is there. Of course....

... but I was genuinely shocked to have feminists trying to sell me porn. Just shocked, outraged, and extremely sad. I feel like I have a much better understanding .... so proud of him for doing it. And SO relieved!!! For a long time, I felt like I couldn't really stand up and say NO PORN. And now that just makes me feel sad, that I've been so brainwashed that even though I know it makes me sick, and I know it's women-hating, I was STILL kind of believing those fucked up messages!

emphasis (bold,italic) is mine

to me it seems rather apparent. you have a particular view of porn, and not everyone agrees with you, and maybe you are ok with people not agreeing with you, but the way you phrase it, it comes across as, "well i know better than you" and holier-than-thou. now, you may not feel that way i perhaps i should have given you the benefit of a doubt, but we do have history, so i may have just assumed that is what you meant.

as for why i was going on about different human sexualities, it's because you seem to see mainstream porn as a monolithic authority of heterosexual views and norms. and even mainstream porn is anything but monolithic, but further, you brought up a specific case of what you thought was misogynistic porn, so, taking your eg, i disected it and attempted to point out how it isnt as simple as you make it out to be. for example, i don't think violent porn is automatically woman hating. hey, i like bdsm. you don't. but i think domme or sub power when talking about bdsm is way more complex that simple binaries. and bdsm isn't always leather, whips and chains, sometimes it's verbal tones or a look in the eye, and what may look one way to the viewer is radically different for those participating. that's why i suggest that instead of using generalities, we use specifics, instead of using over arching assumptions, we figure out systems for evaluating and judging meaning in porn. i say this to you, and it never seems that it is something you are interested in. you would rather throw out your broadsheets, and never really talk about things. meh. maybe we're just talking past each other. i hear what you say, but i just don't agree. i don't need to call you names or "attack" but if you are going to accuse me of doing so, then engage me. don't dismiss me.

[greenbean]

Maddy, you asked why "we" (I guess you mean those of us that aren't as outraged about high heels as you want feminists to be) even come on these threads. Um, I for one am on here to learn from other peoples opinions and to grow as an informed woman,..but I'm also here to remind other feminists that we are a diverse bunch with diverse backgrounds and lifestyles.

I never said you CAN'T be outraged by whatever does that to you, I just dont appreciate that you have to tell us how WE'VE outraged you, and then expect us to trot off with our tails between our legs. Sorry! Doesn't work that way. You say that you didnt want to start a debate, and that just wanted to reflect on your experience at that conference. Well, fair enough. I'm just doing some reflecting myself. I think that if I sound defensive, its because I want to stress that my opinion matters, even if it isnt what those other feminists want to hear. Let me see if I can make my opinion more clear. Maddy, you said:

"The experience I've had on other sites is that feminists aren't trying to show me how great "some porn" can be. It's feminists who are willing to really look at what the VAST majority of the porn industry is. You are all SO focused on the stuff you watch-and THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. That is like .001% of the porn industry. Fer god's sakes. Take a look at the top 100 selling porn films-I betcha you won't find one single "woman-friendly" film. Even in the top 1000, I bet."

Ok, right, I understand your concern is how disgusting and degrading mainstream porn is. I think that is something a lot of us are concerned with and aren't sure exactly how to curtail it. It would have been great if you shared with us some of the solutions you've learned at the conference, but so far you haven't. It seems you were more concerned with telling us how those other feminists are SOOOO great and won't back down and arent compromising. I didnt hear any solutions other than educating your boyfriend why hes not allowed to watch porn...which I'm not opposed to, its your relationship and thats important to you...but that is a personal solution for you and not the reason I get defensive.

I get defensive because you continue to dismiss the importance of alternative and woman-friendly porn, simply because of the numbers. I can't stress enough that THIS is the solution: ALTERNATIVES!!! Its doesnt matter how small. We need alternatives in all our choices, whether its our cars, shopping centers, music...its dire. Take music for example. Look at who tops the charts. Justin Timberlake? Akon? Elliot Yamin? CRAP CRAP CRAPPITY CRAP. Total brain-numbing crap. But what is the solution? LISTENING TO BETTER MUSIC. And sharing better music. Some people will thank you for exposing them to it, others well say "No thanks, I like crap" and some will just ignore better music cuz its only .001% of music, so, you know, it must not matter.

Another note, I *am* here to learn more, and that is why I asked about the study Chrinoline mentioned, and if anyone knew more about porn and other countries. Mornington talked of Muslim countries, and I appreciate being able to learn from her. I am still interested in Japan's culture, because I have seen some icky stuff come from there and would love to find out more about their modern culture, the good, bad and ugly.

Frankly, I didn't ask about your conference because it seemed like just a bashing of the "evils" of sexualized culture and I've been through Catholic school already.

[katiebelle2882]

oh i was just trying to give examples of things mornington, in case you wanted to look and maybe get an idea. some people might not consider it woman friendly, but i think that is what makes this discussion even more interesting.

[mornington]

maddy, i think the point GT was making with porn and desire, is that porn wouldn't be made if people didn't see something they desired; it's a case of supply and demand there. And people find different things desireable, so there are different acts in porn. However, I think there is also a degree of taboo - people are curious about what other people don't talk about.

also, yes, feminism is about ending oppression, but to me, that does involve doing what makes you happy.

katie, thanks for the recommendations, but i'm not looking for porn - just to talk about it. and perhaps you too could compromise that maddy is entitled to her opinion - as maddy is (I hope) willing to compromise that you can hold yours. Without the name-calling on either side.

[katiebelle2882]

porn is, in some instances a reflection of human sexuality, and maddy frankly, i feel attacked personally by your whole attitude about being "compromising". in fact i am genuinely interested in that conference and what you learned, i just thought the way you went about talking about it was condescending.

[maddy29]

Oh, and greenbean- I"m not offended that feminists here told me about certain types of porn. I wanted to explore all this stuff, and even though I didn't enjoy any of the stuff I've seen, I wasn't offended by anyone here referring me to certain sites. That being said, please don't tell me what I can and can't be outraged about.

GT-I wasn't the one who brought up that study, so don't freak out on me about it!!! Also, I have never said all porn is bad. I don't know where you pulled that one from, but it wasn't me. Seriously, I've always tried to differentiate between the majority of porn (woman-hating) and the small percentage that is women-friendly, or whatever. I don't really have any interest in talking about that little niche though....at least not now. Why do you always have to start with a big attack on me? Then you PM me something nice, it's very confusing.

The conference really wasn't dissing on third wave feminism, it was applauding it for being more inclusive, but there were critiques, too. I don't think I described that lecture very well, it was really more about trying to join together the good parts of both "movements" (not that I even identify with either or any particular "wave"). It was talking about what the radical feminists are missing, and what the third wave "sex-positive" crowd is missing. It wasn't saying one was better than the other. It was saying how can we work together to stop the pornification of our culture.


Also, porn isn't sex. Porn isn't human sexuality. So why is GT talking about the complexity of human desire? I'm talking about porn, big difference.

[maddy29]

ok said i was out, but i lied

(I'm just going to ignore katie, fyi. I can't address someone who is just attacking me personally.)

The experience I've had on other sites is that feminists aren't trying to show me how great "some porn" can be. It's feminists who are willing to really look at what the VAST majority of the porn industry is. You are all SO focused on the stuff you watch-and THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. That is like .001% of the porn industry. Fer god's sakes. Take a look at the top 100 selling porn films-I betcha you won't find one single "woman-friendly" film. Even in the top 1000, I bet.

On the other sites, women don't call me a prude or judgmental, when I say I find porn absolutely disgusting. In fact, they push me to look even further into that. They aren't trying to sell me some bullshit about stripping being "empowering" They are challenging me a lot about porn, but also about femininity, gender roles, etc. They don't call me a bitch when I say that high heels are evil. They don't call me the feminist police when I argue that feminism is about ending oppression, not just "women doing whatever makes them happy." So basically, they don't call me names or attack me. They state their opinions, and ask questions, and challenge me, but there's no name-calling. I feel like they have really helped me pull my head out of my ass, and forced me to take my blinders off, about a lot of things. I feel a huge sense of relief. I can state my opinion, and my feelings, and they are listened to and considered, not thrown out and ignored.

Whereas on this site, I've been called names, harassed, not listened to, told I was a prude, vanilla, judgmental, manipulative, etc etc etc. So yeah, my experience on these other sites has been a lot better. (Not saying everyone here sucks or anything, of course not. )

And truthfully, I'm not sure why people post in this thread and others. It doesn't seem like most people are actually interested in talking about this stuff in any open kind of way. I mean, some people are fine, sure. But most people just get defensive and freak out, and aren't willing to look at all sides of this stuff. So yeah, I'm not really sure why you are all here, other than to jump on my ass whenever I say something you don't agree with.

None of you even asked about the conference or showed any interest in it-you just jumped on what you didn't like about what I said, and responded to that. It seems that some people are more interested in stirring shit up then in actually learning.

[nickclick]

Also, I wasn't looking for a debate. I was posting what my experience has been in the past few months, and about going to that conference. I've learned a lot about myself, and about feminism, and about life, and I'm excited about it. I thought people might be interested, I guess not.

i think we're all interested, 'cuz why else would we be posting in this thread?!?!??? but the nature of these boards is to learn from each other, inherently causing debate, or discussion, but minus personal attacks all around please. that's never gonna open up any interesting debate.

[katiebelle2882]

The only reason its harsh is because Maddy pulls this crap all the time and its just old. I mean this is the same conversation we had with her MONTHS ago when this thread first started and shes still not getting it, so really I was just out of patience with her. It's nothing new, and it's not even just this topic that she does this with. She IS judgemental, despite what she says, and she IS closeminded, so I just call it like i see it in this case. At this point shes just dismissive. We have all agreed with her point in terms of the idea that most mainstream porn is bad, but she refuses to look outside the box. In the end its her that will be more hurt then anyone else. She is also very manipulative in that she tries to turn it around and accuse us of getting defensive and not getting it, or looking at her point of view, when nothing could be farther from the truth. Case in point, how GT specifically asked for her experiences with the other sites (which I too would like to see) and she says that is a defesive move without even addressing anything that would force her to actually articulate what those sites say. Its just all too convenient thats all, and has been for months. I am definitly not against hearing both sides in this debate, that is what this thread is for.

In any case, women friendly porn. well, all you really have to do is go to a women friendly porn shop, or visit one online. as we discussed previously, awhile back, beautifulagony.com and ifeelmyself.com came up. not that beautifulagony is porn per se, but its along those lines. I think also its hard to definitively specify what is necesarily "women friendly" when taste in porn varies so much. I would classify it as anything that doesnt make me seethingly uncomfortable. for instance, 5 guys jerking off on a girls face, yeah thats not women friendly and incredibly dehumanizing for me to watch. stuff like that i dont think is women friendly. maybe an interesting question is "is there a woman friendly way to even portray that situation or is it inherently anti woman?". hmm who knows.

[mornington]

maddy, gt has just said she was interested in knowing what else you'd experienced and learnt from the other sites. I would too!

just my two pence, but the people here who like porn seem to generally like alternative, woman-friendly porn. Is it not possible to separate the woman-friendly and commercial/mass porn and have a discussion? (maybe what defines woman-friendly porn?) It seems to me that people are willing to do that. I'll admit I know bugger-all about porn, i don't watch it simply beause I don't enjoy it, but having said that, I've never seen any woman-friendly porn. I'm just genuinely interested in the debate, and I enjoy reading your views when they're not so defensive (and when others aren't attacking you - katie, I thought what you said was a bit harsh).

[maddy29]

Also, I wasn't looking for a debate. I was posting what my experience has been in the past few months, and about going to that conference. I've learned a lot about myself, and about feminism, and about life, and I'm excited about it. I thought people might be interested, I guess not. I thought I'd give it another go here at BUST, now that I understand where my anger was coming from. But I think the people who post in this thread, in general, like porn and are extremely defensive about it, and don't really want to look any further than what they like.

With that, I'm really out. Disappointed, but not surprised. Take care of yourselves! I wish you all the best.

[mornington]

greenbean, I should of added that this was western porn - with the exception of some of the music channels coming out of turkey and lebanon, which makes mtv look like a decent alternative. It was basically porn.

I think, to a certain degree, it is fairly normal for the majority of teenagers to want to be "like everyone else"... i'm basically agreeing with nickclick, that commodification is the problem, and enough of an alternative needs to be created (which, tbh, is why I kindof like the suicide girls - at least the idea behind it).

gt, i heart you. you've knocked feminism on the head for me. It's whatever makes you happy - and not recieving any shit for doing that. I think the conservative feminists can do a lot of damage, because like a lot of extreme conservatives of any bent, they're the ones who make the most noise; when (unfortunately) feminism is a percieved minority, there are fewer people to shout louder than them, and so they're the ones who get heard, and turn people off third-wave feminism. Although at the same time, I think they're entitled to thier opinions on porn or whatever, I just wish there was more acknowledgement of there being some women-friendly porn out there.

[girltrouble]

well good maddy. if they are pushing you, making you think, then good. and if you find what they say more provocative then what you find here, then by all means, go where you are being fed. personal, meaningful growth should be the goal for all. i do hope that you did not take what i said personally, as i went out of my way not to attack you, for my part i think having someone who doesn't agree with me a very good thing, to find my own personall growth, and your ideas still make me want to find solutions to some of the contradictions you pointed out in my logic, and i personally look forward to your responses when you have more time to speak to our points, but that said i find myself very curious to find out how they are making you think. what points are they bringing up that you find most challenging. for my part i would love to hear what they said to similar posts to the one you left here.