[lucizoe]

*delurks*

---edited because in the time it took me to write it, shit happened which renders it moot---

No one - in the history of the movement - has been able to come up with a solid, all-encompassing definition of feminist actions. Because not all women are the same. Shocking, I know. I dislike being painted with the same brush by the culture-at-large just 'cause I am defined as female. But I have to say I downright resent being told by other feminists that what I want sexually - informed only by my own desires, which I personally have no interest in changing, as I did not arrive at them through anything but my own nature (hell - my freaking barbies were into bondage before I had any idea that such a practice even existed) - is wrong or unfeminist.

(Not to say that I'm unaffected by the culture in which I live. Merely that I have no childhood trauma informing how I view sex. Usual stupid American teenager misinformation, but outgrew that quick. I was lucky in my parents).

It just smacks of the smarmy shit I got in college for NOT being a lesbian. The very fact that I wasn't sexually attracted to women called my belief in equal rights for everyone into question. Please - someone explain that to me.

[tyger]

so, i'm being unfeminist right now because i am wearing makeup, have a padded bra on, and painted my nails? even though i'm wearing orange and red eyeshadow because i think it's neat and makes me happy? and my bra is padded so my friendly nipples aren't saying hi to everyone i meed? and my nails are painted because I, personally, think they look gross otherwise, and i like claiming i paint them black to match my soul.

girltrouble, i'm assuming you want a boob job because *you* want it? because it's fun to have boobs? because you feel that you were meant to have them? damn right it's feminist then. i'm not going to make broad sweeping statements, but i was always under the impression that as long as we have all the facts presented to us, make an informed decision based on what we, not society, thinks is 'right' or 'proper' or whatever, and are happy with our decisions we aren't being 'unfeminist'.

but, back to the porn...
i'm okay with it as long as the people (both girls and boys) involved are there because they truly want to be. last year (or maybe the year before?) there was a series on showcase (it's only in canada) about people involved with internet porn. they had webcam girls who wanted to go to work every morning, who loved their jobs, and hey, that's cool. if you're having fun and making money frolicking around half-nekkid for men sitting at their computers, more power to you. the girl (who had already been involved in porn for quite some time), who showed up at a shoot and was surprised with the expectation that she would perform anal sex, which she had never done before? that's where i start having problems with it. when there are obviously unsafe/unsanitary things (i was scarred by some awful porn one time. it featured a guy with a spanish/terminator accent, which was scary enough, but he then had two girls awkwardly upside down in front of him and he went girl to girl, ass to vagina, no condom or anything) it crosses a line and becomes not feminist in the least.

i mean, i don't get off on porn (it's an 'oh, i'm bored, this is funny' sort of thing), but as long as the people involved are respected, i don't have a problem with it. like, if you get off on porn where women are being degraded (this goes for both girls and guys), if the girl in said porn is actually getting off on it, too, then it's great. the problem is, for the most part, we can't know how the actors feel, if they're respected, if they are there because they want to be.

wow, i was long and rambly, and am totally not sure if i made the point i intended to. i hope i made sense of some kind

[girltrouble]

ETA: maddy29: Jan 17 2007, 11:07 AM


i know exactly what you are trying to say, shit stain. i see how you act like a troll in other threads. you're gone? good riddance, dicklick. all hail feminist empress maddy. hey, thanks for showing me the error of my ways, hypocrite.

don't start none, won't be none. if you ignite it, chica, i will burn the motherfucker to the ground.

[maddy29]

oh yes, i forgot how feminist it is to show your boobs to GGW, thanks for reminding me. that is definitely super feminist!

and gt, once again you have NO IDEA what i'm even trying to say, so whatever.......talk about closeminded! sheesh.

i'm so out of here. gah.

[girltrouble]

that fucking tears it.

i am so fucking tired of your bullshit. you don't come to this discussion with an openess, you just want to be the fucking uber feminist who gets to decide who is and who isnt good enough. like kink? feh, that's not feminism! wear heels? nope! not feminism.


but here is the fucking deal: you are nothng but a fucking hypocrite. you whine about getting your legs done while looking down your fucking nose at people in the floggers thread because their sexuality is different than you. FUCKING CLEAN UP YOUR OWN FUCKING BACKYARD BEFORE YOU TRY TO BE SOME STUPID FUCKING PARAGON OF FEMINISM, fuckstain.

god you make me so sick. this is exactly the point, none of us can live up to some impossible ideal. we are human beings, and that means we are fucking messy. we don't fit into boxes no matter how much we try.

just cos it's women making rules doesnt mean the finished straightjacket will be any less tight.

and if you are gonna be the one coming in here puffing up your goddamn chest, talking about "this forum isn't feminist" and downing it, YOU HAD BETTER GET YOUR OWN FUCKING SHIT IN ORDER FIRST. perhaps you are feeling so guilty about your own failings, but i am sick of your bullshit being taken out on others. really. do you think your incoherant postings today with your 'fuckfuckfuck' have any use? they don't. you don't. we had a interesting, intellegent conversation, and i don't know what kind of stick you had in your ass, but you come in here and other threads spewing hate.

you can't even live up to your own rules, where the fuck do you get off judging others?
fucking hypocrite.


ETA: maddy29; Jan 17 2007, 11:07 AM to 04:44 PM

[girlbomb]

The thing is, it's hard to say that a whole class of actions is "anti-feminist" (unless it's something like voting against equal pay, or something). For instance, I used to think that vaginoplasty was inherently "anti-feminist." And someone may have very "anti-feminist" reasons for getting vaginoplasty (because she wants her vagina to look more like what her partner sees in porn videos), but someone else might have a "feminist" reason for doing so (because she's lost a lot of weight, and now her clitoris is not getting stimulated during sex, and she wants greater sensation). So while there might be not-so-feminist-y reasons for getting boob jobs ("I want men to value my breasts more"), there may be more feminst-y ones ("I want my body to match the gender of my spirit").

Who knows -- someone may come up with a feminist-y reason to lift her shirt for Girls Gone Wild (one besides "It's empowering to me and that's the end of it"). I haven't heard one yet, but if I do, I'll let y'all know. In the meantime, I have to respect that all women who identify as feminists are sincere in their desire to see sexism shattered, even if their methods may differ from mine. Sometimes I want to yell at people for their personal choices, but if I'd yelled at everyone who had vaginoplasty before I fully understood the varying motives for doing so, I'd have accidentally alienated some women who were quite feminist indeed.

(OT: I'm bored and ansty and home today, so I'm going back and forth between here and a Disney World-related bulletin board. Nice cognitive dissonace, there.)

[maddy29]

oh yes, i am just too highly emotional today. it must be pms. or maybe it's just me being a silly woman. that must be it.

it's all good. getting boob jobs is a feminist act, so is stripping for drunken asshole men at a club. i guess i was just confused about what feminism is, but now that it's all clear.....

[greenbean]

Yeah Erinjane, I don't want to fan the flames but OOoof! What happened? Maddy, it sounds like you are feeling more emotional today than usual...you've been very active on this thread and have always said that you want to learn more about other peoples' opinions and lifestyles, but now you are turning around and criticizing them. Kinda makes it hard on those of us that have bravely opened up to you. I've said before that you dont HAVE to accept/understand BDSM,..and now with Girltrouble here, you don't HAVE to accept/understand her desire to be a woman, and you don't HAVE to indentify us as feminists if you dont think we are.

Maddy, I know you have a kind heart , but still, its kinda harsh to nicely ask for our points of view and then tell us we're fucked up. Pret-ty harsh. I do believe what you say that some actions we take are not feminist, and jumping on other women's choices probably tops the list for me.

Girlbomb, in my last post I wasn't saying anyone HERE was trying to outlaw porn, I just meant in general.
The real point I was trying to make is about sex-ed and sexuality awareness...if we know boys are going to get there hands on porn, there needs to be a strong voice reminding them that its just fantasy, and not always realistic. Kinda like with booze: you know they are going to get their hands on it, so shouldnt you educate them about the consequences of intoxication?

[erinjane]

If either of you leaves this thread, I will hunt you down and pull you back in by your hair.

(How's that for a non-consensual response to your personal choices?)

Hahaha!

(I'm sitting back and waiting for things to cool down, myself.)

[girltrouble]

chica, i never said i was the only one. i was explaining why i can't get into the whole, pro/anti feminist thing. wtf?! i complement you, and try to make peace and you don't stop. i blunt what i say and fucking wonder why i bother, maddy. why are you such an ass? i just try to tell you where i am coming from and you get all personal. i have given you way more than the benifit of a doubt, i have been way more than gregarious, in posts and in pms, and still you keep riding my ass. i've said i was sorry i don't know how many times, i don't know how many ways, but you just can't quit, can you? i am at the end of my patience. i bite my tongue around you, and still you give me shit. so close to putting you on blast...

[girlbomb]

If either of you leaves this thread, I will hunt you down and pull you back in by your hair.

(How's that for a non-consensual response to your personal choices?)

[maddy29]

oh puhleeze gt! this whole "i have been excluded from every group known to humankind" thing is the attitude that is so frustrating-it's a very know it all attitude! i mean, do you think others here (including me) haven't experienced the same thing?

[girltrouble]

i think you took my post to personal. i wasn't talking about you specifically, but rather the urge to parse things down to negative/positive binaries. it's a syndrome that we have here in the west. everything can be reduced to "you're either for us or against us. and mama, you can say what you want, do what you want, and act how you want, i will never tell you different. i believe in personal freedom above all else. that means for you and me.

i never said i was better than you, i don't think i am, but if that's how you took it, sorry, that's not how i meant it. the same for telling you your ideas have no place here. i think you have been one of the most challenging, engaging people to post in this thread, and i have looked forward to everyone of your posts. i had the utmost in respect for you, and i loved hearing your rebutal to my posts. they made me think and defend my position. i appreciate that and would NEVER in a million years tell you not to disagree with me. hell, i encourage that. please do. but i don't like to compare scars, i think it's useless, as i said in my post, and i shouldnt have done it. but tell you to shut up, or anything similar? nah. that wasn't my intent.

i guess you don't have to accept everyone's choices. you can be judgemental, and tell everyone what you think. that is your call. i don't think that was what i was saying about you, but i think that is how you took it. look, my point was that i have borne the brunt of every single single group deciding what makes a good citizen of group x. i am the first one people want to exclude. when i was in church, i wasn't christian enough, among blacks i wasn't black enough, men, i wasn't manly enough, among queers, i wasn't queer enough, among trannies, i'm not femme enough, among women, i'm not woman enough, and on and on and on and on. and i get so damn tired of trying to please all of these little groups that i want to be a part of trying to make me into something i'm not, when all i want is to be the best me. and encourage others to do the same.

i have this theory about relationships: they should be all about the positive, about building you up, cos if they aren't they are tearing you down. to me, a feminism that needs to exclude people, to tell them what they are doing doesn't belong, is a feminism that tears people down, it doesn't reach them where they are. accept them for who they are. and since i never fit in, i don't want to be in a group that can't accept me. why would i?

chica, you can have your anger, and your feminism, and your decisions on anti or pro feminism. that is your deal. i just can't live like that. i've tried living by everyone else's rules, and i put that behind me.


and really, i have to tell you, i am really suprized at your reaction. i would never call anyone crazy. i've had it done to me. and i try to treat people how i'd want to be treated.

just know, i never meant to hurt my feelings anymore than you asking your questions unintentionally hurt mine. and i think i might have hurt your feelings when i replied to your tranny questions, but your tone rubbed me the wrong way, and i should have taken a step back. sorry for hurting your feelings. that was not my intent. as i said before. i had the utmost in respect for you.

you can have your place here. i guess this is just another place i don't fit. good luck. it's all yours.

[maddy29]

my ideas have no place here? nice. i see how it works. you can say whateve ryou want to me, challenge me, and tell me that i'm being crazy or whatever with my "feminist rules" but i can't say shit back?

whatever-if this is what you call a discussion, i don't want to be part of it.

yeah, i don't get "Tranny" stuff, it's true. but when you talk about self-acceptance and then in the next breath talk about a boob job, that's BS.

and no, i don't have to respect everyone's choices. whoever said that was what feminism is about?

and of course, how would I know why women go into the sex industry? i'm just a clueless, micromanaging, judgemental fool.

blah. i'm done with this shit. you are soooo unwilling to look at anything you do as not being feminist.

yeah, consent to be abused-that's fucked. that's the way i feel. fucked fucked fucked.

when you ask "who cares?" i fucking care! why do you th ink i am writing all this? i CARE that women get boob jobs. i care that you see getting a boob job as no big deal, even though it has major health risks.

but whatever, have fun in your little bubble. i'll continue exploring this, but not here, where i'm not "allowed" to state my opinions and ideas.

since you are "tranny" you will always think you have the right to the last word, cause you know SOOO Much more than anyone else does about gender issues. seriously, fuck that shit.

secondly, to state that you "get" appeasement more than me, is also fucked. fucked fucked fucked. how would you know what I know? oh that's right, you are just better than me. i forgot!

and yeah, you don't want anyone telling you what to do-how do you explain being a sub then?

[girltrouble]

first: i have been abused. my first domina beat the shit out of me, it took me a while to figure out that cos she was my domina, she didn't have the right to abuse me. the difference is consent. if you didn't just take a surface view of bdsm you would understand it is not a free ride to beat or get beaten. since my first dom, if a dom violates my trust, they get the boot. even if it's a small thing. and fuck yes, i think exploring bdsm, if done in a safe, sane and consentual way-- even if you are submissive-- can be a feminist act. i always have the right to say, do not cross this line. if you do, you get no play.

to me what makes something a feminist act is me looking at the options, interogating them and then making the choice that works for ME. if feminism is simply another list of opressive rules, then i want NONE OF IT. why trade one set of chains for a prettier set? the point is they are chains. i am not interested in giving anyone else a say about whether my choices are good, bad or inbetween. what makes it a feminist act to me is that i have given the choices thought, and chose what works for me. if i believe in working towards the betterment of women, and their options, WHO GIVES A FUCK if i wear heels, have a boob job, or have my legs lasered so i don't have to shave. who fucking cares? it's a side track that only leads to women putting women down to tow some bullshit line. its just a side track that makes women agonize over things that maybe matter in the micro, but not in the macro. it's just a tool that can be used to divide and conquer. cos in the end, what is going to alienate people who call themselves feminists is feminist fascists who feel the need to tally every act that they or others do in one of those two columns of feminist or non-feminist. no thanks. if that is what you propose i want out, don't call me or anything i do feminism, i'll find some other name and community that isn't stuck on micromanaging my life and my choices.

the point is to be aware of the culture's ideas, and make choices that work for me. the point is freedom of choice for each woman to live their life as they see fit. if i am living my life by the rules of the culture at large or by some feminist guru, i'm still not living my life by my own rules, isn't feminism the idea that women can make their own choices? i am not interested in becoming a stepford wife or the anti-stepford wife. i want to be me, and i don't need some rule book or guilt trip to tell me what is gonna make me happy and my life complete. and edicts from a woman aren't any better than those from a man if i'm still opressed by them.

as to your point #2 i will be honest, i am having a very hard time biting my tounge, right now, but i will let you slide cos i know you don't mean anything by it, and you don't really understand tranny shit, but i will put this as politely as i can muster:

i spent 20+ years of my life in a suicidal funk beating myself up for everything i did, wallowing in self-hatred and loathing, and putting on a mask to appease the mass culture, pretending to be a "man". i spent those years aquiessing to everyone else's idea of who and what i should be. and i certainly don't want to say that i get that appeasement way better than you ever could, but i think i do. and i hate to go suffering for suffering for suffering, but i think i need to make this point. i have lost pretty much EVERYTHING, to accept the person that i am, to grow into the person i always was. inspite of the culture in this land that places me somewhere between insane and a freak. i have lost, my entire family, i have lost, 90% of my friends, to be me. to stop fighting what i knew to be true, and accept that person internally and change my life and body to be who i AM, who i ALWAYS WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE. now, if that ain't self acceptance, tell me what is.

why am i considering a boob job? cos to me the body i inhabit is mine. it is my sculpture, my house , mine. i have to/get to live in it, not you. if i was to let other people choose what i do with my body, i would still be a boy, and a dead one at that, cos i can't live like that. i think i feel about my body the way a lot of feminists feel towards anti-abortion laws, WHY THE FUCK, should ANYONE but me get a choice on what is done with my body? my ideas of beauty certainly aren't mainstream, even with fake boobs, but i don't like having anyone tell me what to do with my body and this gets back to my tranny shit, but in order to get on hormones there are "hoops" that you have to jump thru if you are a tranny. in effect, i have to give up my body to someone else's point of view of who and what i am, i have to let someone else make a judgement on if i am fit, if i fit someone else's out dated criteria, and then i have to jump thru more hoops, and hope that they take mercy on me and decide i am worthy of whatever bread crumbs they deem to dole out. if i am not mistaken you have some background in psychology, don't you maddy? so you are familiar with the rules of treatment. the point is, in order to be me in this country, i have to live by someone elses rules. to reformat my body in a way that pleases no one but me, and the kinky people who like trannies. i will never be society's idea of a woman, there is always some asshole who will say oh you're not a woman. i modified my body to suit my internal idea of who i am and i see nothing wrong with that. and it's a feminist act because of who i am. the words from my mouth and thoughts in my brain. i will defy what this culture's idea of what it means to be a woman with every breath i have, even if i don't want to, because i wasn't born one, because i still have a dick, and like it, and wearing heels, getting a boob job, and anything else that makes me happy ain't gonna change that.


and it's not that what you say sounds crazy to me, i just don't agree. i don't believe in that sort of myopic micromanaging feminism. i just don't. i don't think feminism is about letting someone else make rules or judgements about my life. i believe in a feminism that is about thinking enough of me that, whatever choices i make are mine to make. i don't want a feminism that thinks that all choices need to be reduced to a bianary of good and bad. i think it's a simplistic trap. and i don't feel the need to look down on someone for a boob job, or a porn movie, or wearing skirts or heels, or any other pronouncement.

if you chose to accept your desires of being submissive, abused or whatever, that is your call. i know a girl who's been thru hell at the hands of an abuser. she is as kinky-- and as feminist-- as they come, she made the choice that was right for her. it may not be right for you. you are the only person qualified to make that choice, or any other in your life. all i ask is that whatever you choose, you respect everyone else's autonomy. their right to consent (if over 18), and their choice.

you don't get kink. fine. it's not for you. but don't tell me what value judgement to put on my experiences when i play. like you said, you don't get it, so how would you know?

and your ideas of why women are in porn are conjecture, so they have no place here. sorry.

[maddy29]

hmm, i think some people got what i was saying, and others didn't.

a couple things girltrouble- first of all-i just so strongly disagree with you about the non-feminist act thing. you are saying that if i identify as a feminist, then every decision i make is automatically a feminist act/choice/decision, just because i call myself a feminist. i think that is just wrong. getting a boob job is an unfeminist act, yes. wearing high heels in an unfeminist act. since high heels are the modern day equivalent of foot binding, "choosing' to wear heels is a not a feminist act. i don't see why th is is so crazy sounding to you?

yeah, i struggle with this stuff. it'd be a hell of a lot easier to just say oh who the fuck cares, everything I do is great and wonderful! al la la! but that would be ignorant and naive. i struggle between wanting to conform to the mainstream, and wanting to stand strong with m y feminist beliefs. that's a struggle all of us as feminists.

why do you want a boob job? and how can you say that is feminist?

2nd-you are saying that you prefer self acceptance over reprogramming-but hello! you are trans! you changed some extremely major things about yourself-where was the self-acceptance there?

yes, my "icky" behavior was taught to me as a child by my abuser. so yes, it was constructed. i wanted to deconstruct that, and change it. do you think i should have just "accepted" my abusive fantasies and self-degradation, just because that's what was taught to me? of course not. now, i didn't beat myself up for these thoughts when i was trying to change them, but i examined them and tried to understand them, etc.

i'm really confused about your defensiveness about non-feminist acts. you really seem to be saying that any choice a feminist makes is feminist.

and i'm REALLY getting sick of this whole line "feminism is about supporting women no matter what they do." actually, that's NOT what feminism is about. sorry, i don't support porn actresses. does that mean i don't care about them? of course not. but i don't support that choice to be in mainstream sexist degrading porn, because it hurts ME. you can support a woman as a whole, and still not support a choice she's making.

i know i'm getting all riled up, but i think it's just ridiculous to call oneself a feminist, and think they don't have any responsibility to feminism. gah.

i know you love kink, i know you have these ideas. i have different ideas. i don't get kink, or power games. i don't see how violence is desirable. i dunno, maybe when you've actually been brutalized, playing power games and messing around with violence isn't so "fun and sexeee."

i actually find it quite disturbing how many women are into mainstream porn, go to strip clubs, want to be "dominated" by a man, want to be tied up, etc etc etc. i don't get it. and that's ok, i accept that i may never understand that. but i'm still disturbed by it and upset by it.

i think that about 95% of women in the sex industry are there for the following reasons:
1. coerced or forced, kidnapped, slavery
2. drug addiction-a way to pay for drugs
3. poverty/single mom, etc-best way to make money
4. have been brain-washed to think that being a sexual object is a great thing and tons o' fun
5. boyfriend got them into it.
6. lack of other work opportunities

I'm being generous when i say that 5% of women in the sex industry are there becaues they want to-they are emotionally healthy enough, they have other opportunities, they aren't doing it for anyone else, or for drug money. I don't get these women, probably never will-but i dont have a problem with what they are doing, except for the impact it has on society.

ok holy long post!

lastly- i wonder why we think that taking over porn, or making better women-friendly porn, is the ONLY way to go about changing things. exploring female sexuality, etc. why is it that w'ed take something invented by asswipe sexist men who want to objectify women, and try to turn that into something "empowering" we are so uncreative that we can't come up with other ways to be sexual/explore sexuality, etc? why is it porn or nothing?

this post probably sounded really angry, and i'm not angry at anyone here, i'm just angry at the world! i'm just sooo fucking sick of excuses and denial. sigh.

[girltrouble]

i understand that lesbian porn is a male's fantasy of what lesbians do. my comment was more of an aside. although, i did have a problem with the way you put it. calling it "ridiculous", and that my experience is very different from yours. i loved giving head to my ex's dil/strap on. it didn't need to be flesh or "real" for it to get me hot, but on the whole it was a minor point.

not to take anything away from maddy, but my point is that i prefer self acceptance over "retraining, reprogramming." whether for my sex, sexuality or gender. no thank you. "icky" is a relative judgement, based on personal and cultural values, and is therefore constructed. just as constructed as porn, porn plots and pornstar bodies, and as you've pointed out, porn orgasms. don't take this to mean i am pro nambla, my mantra is SSC. and the c is consent(ual), which a child doesn't have the ability to give. so the child-love thing doesn't apply for our purposes here. we are talking about adult choices, and adult desires. ive spent more than enough time denying who i am , what i desire and and who i desire. i'm not interested in changing who i am . i am not intersted in changing my love of kink and i am certainly not interested in another kind of conformity.

[notwearingwords]

girltrouble, thank you for bringing up a tranny perspective to this discussion, which is something I think a lot of us, sadly, don't think of right away when we have these feminist debates. the transpeople in my life are ftm, so i really welcome your sharing these issues here, because they make me think in a way that I don't usually, and I love that.
I agree that it is one thing to teach yourself to enjoy things that aren't self-destructive through the tool of another person and quite another to reprogram your sexuality. I resent it when religious extremists imply that being gay or lesbian or trans or whatever is something we can or should change. I understand what maddy29 meant about changing the pathways of arousal so as not to be degraded though, and I think there is a fine line between these two distinct things. I know gay people who were raised in extremely religious households who genuinely and firmly believe they are going to hell and hate themselves for giving in to temptation and acting on their homosexual tendencies. part of me wants to tell them to forget the brain-washing they've learned over the years and to embrace their sexuality, but who am I to judge the merit or validity of their religious beliefs? If they think of engaging in homosexual sex as sinful and a ticket to eternal damnation, it is their choice to engage or not. It's sad that they have to deal with that internal conflict and self-hatred, but I don't think they can re-train themselves not to be gay, they can only train themselves not to act gay or engage in gay sex. I'm not saying they should, but I'm just making a point.

girltrouble, I know a lot of lesbians who enjoy strap on sex and feel good wearing the strap on and using it to reach inside a woman in a different way and receiving it, and it certainly isn't difficult to find both butches and femmes and all of those of us in between who enjoy the feeling of sex with strap-ons. I just personally think fellating a dildo is silly and women in porn moaning when another girl sucks her strap-on makes me hysterical. I'm not saying that NOBODY could possibly enjoy it, I was only pointing out that in porn where this is a depiction of "lesbian" sex, it perpetuates the inaccurate assumption that lesbian sex is incomplete because it can only emulate "real" male and female sex acts. Even my father (whom I speak with quite candidly), when I came out, asked me what the primary sex act between women is - he thought it was sex with a strap on and wondered how I could enjoy being fucked by a woman with a strap on but not enjoy being fucked by a man. When I told him there is no singular primary sex act between women and that different women like to do it in different ways with or without different toys and/or equipment, he said, but what is the ultimate, real sex act? He couldn't wrap his mind around it. To him, and to many men, oral sex is not "real" sex, and lesbians can't "really" have sex without a strap-on, because to them, it isn't sex unless there is something phallic inside a woman's pussy.

[girltrouble]

which is probably why the rest of y'all mostly skipped over it.)

lol... uh actually, it's cos i always post in here, and i thought i'd take a break and let some of the lurkers (hint, hint) post.

so much to reply to, but this is the most striking to me:

one note-being a feminist is totally different than being black or queer-those are not choices, being a feminist is. i'm not talking about saying "oooh you are a BAD feminist!" or anything like that. but i consider my hair removal to be a non-feminist act. i can be a feminist and engage in non-feminist activities.

yes, but in being black or queer, there are always little ways that members in those groups can discount you as a member--- think of the things i said. if you talk closer to the queens english, in some black circles you are "trying to be white" or not "black enough." and as much as i understand what you are saying, it is the same thing. i don't see why hair removal, or any other activity is a non feminist act. honestly. if a woman for whatever reason has a breast removed, is it a non feminist act to get the breast replaced? why or why not? after all, isn't it conforming to society's ideas? how about me? what if i wanted to get a boob job? hey, i'll be honest, i am seriously considering it. because i am a tranny does that make it feminist, or sexist, considering my history? i am all for interogating motivation, believe me, i don't shy away from asking myself the questions you do. i don't think my reasons for going and getting electolysis or laser to remove my (goddamn, motherfucking indestructable), facial hair is any different than you getting your legs done. i've known women who have facial hair, (one of my ex's did), but it comes down to my idea of the woman i want to be, and how i see myself. i'm not doing this to fit into some idea of anyone's idea of what this woman is other than mine. i fucking hate having to shave every morning. to say that it is non-feminist, anti-feminist to get my hair removed is to discount my opinion, and doing that-- devaluing someone's choice of their own life is the least feminist thing one can do, imho. oh, but you are a tranny... ain't i a woman? knowing my history doesn't change my choice's meaning to that oft mentioned sociatal perception of normal. is losing weight non-feminist? how about gaining? is that more feminist? i know that you aren't saying ooo bad feminist, but even in your own post you talk about what a hard time you are having with something that, i'd imagine will make you happier. you are self aware enough to look at your reasons, but the idea of this "non feminist" activity has left you with an unnecessary guilt residue. partially, i would guess due to an imagined feminist norm

i used to be "turned on" by degrading stuff, and i changed that. i worked on my reactions and my arousal to turn it around. now, degrading icky stuff is just that-icky. i've changed the pathways of my arousal. why is it so crazy to consider doing that? yes, we "can't help what we think is hot" but we CAN Change it, if we find it disturbing. and if we think that our arousal has been conditioned by a sexist world that hates women.

i want to applaud you for that, and i am happy for you, but that is the same thing my mom says to me, that xtians tell queers, just change the pathway, pray enough, the underlying message is there is something wrong with you and what turns you on. i reject that wholesale. to me that is just another thing to be interogated, questioned and explored. now i agree about the conditioning, but that was my point in talking about a feminist porn with acts like femdom denial.

The wearer of the strapon would act really into it, as if she were a man and she could feel it. It's ridiculous.

is it? maybe i run with the wrong crowd, but i know of atleast two (genetic) girls that i've dated that love strap ons, and each of them talks about having a "psychic penis" that being when they fuck with said strap on, they can feel it. and lord knows both of these women love to strap on the strap on. really. and i doubt they are the only ones. after all i don't think it would be too hard to find butches who love fucking not because it's fun to wear harnesses, but because they like the feeling. sexuality is much more intricate and complex than people give it credit for. like the saying goes, it's between your ears....

[notwearingwords]

maddy29 - I know that being a feminist is different from being black or gay in various ways, but I was referring to the expectations each of these communities can sometimes have of its members. Some feminists are against people who call themselves feminists shaving their legs or getting breast implants, some black people resent other black people who try to fit into white culture or deny their culture, and a lot of gay people think not being out is a disservice to the gay community. Not all of the people in these categories live up to these expectations, and not all of said people expect these things from their communities, but a lot of them do, and that was what I was talking about in my last post.

girlbomb - I agree with you. As I said earlier, a lot of the women in the porn industry may have made the "choice" to perform in this way, but the circumstances they were given and the alternatives they did or didn't have definitely contribute to that choice.

greenbean - some food for thought. This is what I tell my gal pals that fake orgasms because they feel bad for their partners or for whatever reason. Faking it perpetuates the assumption, whether by a male or a female, that whatever he or she is doing is what gets you off. This can begin a cycle of bad sex, and if you finally do come clean in the end and admit that you faked it, they get upset because they've been using every past encounter with you to try to please you better next time and now they get the feeling that they have no clue what you like or what turns you on. I know you were talking about women faking orgasms in porn being hot, not talking about faking them yourself, but a lot of the big-business porn industry material shows women faking orgasms doing things most women don't have orgasms from. I'm not saying that porn should be a tutorial, and I know different people get off from different things, but teenage boys are going to watch porn whether it's legal or not and even grown men, or even some women, watching porn will compare what they see to what they experience and do. Women faking orgasms while giving blow jobs with no stimulation on their girlparts in porn can lead viewers to think that women can get off that way. Some can, but my point is that people usually watch porn that depicts what they enjoy. BDSM enthusiasts watch more BDSM porn and some people here like home-made amateur porn, and some lesbians like strap-on porn, but the common thread is that most people watch and want to do things that they see. They say to themselves, [i]hot position[i] and try it. And I realize people don't believe everything they see to be true, but it shapes their perception of reality.

I agree with you that seeing women have orgasms is sexy, because it is, it turns me and a lot of other people on too. But from a feminist perspective, anything that represents women in an inaccurate way designed specifically for men, in most cases, is demeaning to all women. I'm not saying that nobody should watch any kind of pornography at all, I am talking mainly about the "mainstream" porno industry that is run for and by men. If my girlfriend and I were to go to a video store to buy a lesbian porn, which is not something we do, but if we did, it would be hard to find one that wasn't just girl-on-girl action meant to turn men on. We;d have to go to a special sex store run by and for women, but the main market would have nothing but scenes of grown women dressed as schoolgirls making out and touching each other in the bathroom at school before being caught and fucked from behind by the male principal that teaches them how it's "really" done. Or two girls doing each other with dildos that they suck first! WHY would they do that? The wearer of the strapon would act really into it, as if she were a man and she could feel it. It's ridiculous. I know there are fabulous erotic lesbian films as well, but I'm talking about the kind of porn the majority of the world is exposed to and shaped by, to the detriment of society and women as a whole.

you said that seeing a woman pretend to come is better than not seeing her come at all, but don't you see that she isn't?! faking it is NOT coming. I realize that for practical purposes, porn stars can't have an orgasm every time they need to reshoot a scene, but the fake orgasms in porns are usually so exaggerated that when women have a real genuine orgasm, their partners can be unsure, since she may not be screaming her head off with her head thrown back, one hand in her hair and the other lifting a breast. That is the reaction they see in porn, and that is the reaction they are aiming to get out of their partners

also, I never said anything about censorship, and thank you girlbomb for pointing that out. I agree that sex ed should include discussions about sexuality and not be abstinence only anti-choice shit, but just because sex ed programs are another problem doesn't mean that the porn industry isn't still a legitimate problem as well.