[girl_logic]

I also find it interesting that she needs to mention the race of the women so many times and the fact that they use translators. I suspect her subtext is, if you're not white, and don't speak English you're probably a victim whether you know it or not (but she's there to save you whether you like it or not).

It all makes me wonder what kind of response she actually expected from that article and who her target audience is.

[angie_21]

Apparently she's also a racist. Are Korean women somehow more likely to be prostitutes or pimps than caucasians, and less likely to give accurate testimony? Oh yeah, and you definitely can't trust a woman with a tattoo, or a man who smokes! and what on earth are "other odors?"

It's very sad that people like this take such an insanely complex, socially relevant issue, and turn it into gibberish. The whole article said nothing. She didn't even say what her own testimony was, or what they were trying to badger her into saying. Can't really feel too sorry for her.

And calling it a "circus" is just so offensive to the sex workers who may have been risking a lot just to be there and testify in the first place.

[prophecy_grrl]

Wow that's really offensive. I looked her up at Univ of RI and she seems to be doing important work on issues of sexual exploitation and human trafficking - all the more reason she should know better than to make such reductive uninformed arguments.

[girltrouble]

did i miss something? does that woman even consider herself a feminist? i mean i know she's a prof of women's studies, but that doesn't mean she's a feminist. i have to say i love that she is so vitriolic, then tries to fig leaf her hatred by talking about "the victims" in the last para. she's so over the top it's difficult to take her serious without her titles.

[kittenb]

It is judgemental harshness like that that makes so many of the sex-workers that I know distrustful of feminism and feminists.

[girl_logic]

OMG who is this Donna Hughes asshole?
Projo opinion piece
Makes me embarrassed to call myself a feminist, honestly.

[vixen_within]

I think that most men do respect women. However, the men who don't tend to feel free to be even worse with women whom they feel that they have "bought." They know that society in general and the legal system will not care as much.

Hmm, I again feel that I am condradicting myself:
This is clearly an issue that I go back and forth on. I'll let you know if I ever come to a clear conclusion.

Kitten I meant to say this before, but I think you rock for putting your honest thoughts about this topic out here, because it's not the easiest of topics to discuss openly and un-defensively, but you manage to be able to do it.

[ihateoly]

Hi, I'm new but I was reading and I felt compelled to jump in here. No, sex workers who do not already know their clientel should distrust their clients because it is their right to protect themselves. In porn, though, it's different because everyone is screened for disease and the ladies have the ultimate say in what they will or will not do and they get paid accordingly. We shouldn't be telling women they can't make/watch porn because the men involved may or may not repsect women. We have to respect that these women have a choice and a right to express themselves sexually and not judge it. They are grown women who have thought it through and know what they want. This is the profession they have chosen and they are not victims of any sort. I have had the pleasure of meeting several porn stars through work (I used to peddle smut) and they've all been pretty well adjusted ladies with a mind for business who liked having sex and weren't all hung up about it. Most of them were actually taking complete control of their careers by starting their own porn production companies and branching off into directing movies, which is awesome. There are still some scumbags out there that make porn that, to me, is definately misogynistic (Max Hardcore, ewww!), but for the most part, the ladies have taken the wheel and are doing it for their own pleasure on their own terms and what's not feminist about that?

[kittenb]

I'm getting that, because you don't trust men generally to see women as humans worthy of respect, you don't see any reason to trust the specific men who see sex workers either.

I think that most men do respect women. However, the men who don't tend to feel free to be even worse with women whom they feel that they have "bought." They know that society in general and the legal system will not care as much.

Hmm, I again feel that I am condradicting myself:

After all, a man who is going to slap a woman or rape a woman or kill a woman will do so regardless of the woman's profession.

This is clearly an issue that I go back and forth on. I'll let you know if I ever come to a clear conclusion.

[vixen_within]

Yeah, I was thinking about the short discussion we had at the conference but it's something I hear a lot from others too. It's a vibe that kind of permeates when many folks talk about sex workers.

This is really interesting, and it's helping me to clarify some of my reactions. I don't think you're contradicting yourself really. I'm getting that, because you don't trust men generally to see women as humans worthy of respect, you don't see any reason to trust the specific men who see sex workers either.

However I do get the sense that when someone says they don't trust the customers, it's because they assume the customers respect women in general and sex workers in specific even LESS than the average guy (this is nearly the exact opposite of my own experience by the way, depending on the setting).

[kittenb]

Was it me who said that? It sounds like something I was saying awhile ago.
I do get unnerved about the issue of he clients of sex-workers. I've just seen too much where it goes wrong. It is like the same feeling I have when I walk past a group of drunk men; I tense, I don't trust them.
My involvement w/in the sex worker's rights movement has expanded my views on clients but there is still a lot of work that need to be done. Too much of society views sex-workers as less than others (less deserving of respect, safety, life, etc.). I cannot believe that all clients of sex workers respect that what they are purchasing is the sex not the person! I hear too many people use words like "Dumb" or "Stupid" followed by "Whore" or "Slut." I know how most of society views sex-workers. How can I trust that my friends who do this work are being respected or treated well by everyone that they do business with?

As fot the difference b/w men who hire sex workers and men who don't...hmm, I don't know that there is one. After all, a man who is going to slap a woman or rape a woman or kill a woman will do so regardless of the woman's profession. I just know that society cares more when the slapped, raped, murdered woman isn't a sex worker. Well, as much as society as represented by the legal system cares, I suppose.

Did I just contradict what I said above?

So I guess the work that I want to do is to "rehumanize" sex-workers in the eyes of those who would dismiss them and their rights. I hope that doens't sound condescending as I don't mean it to be.

[vixen_within]

This seems to be the porn, prostitution, etc. discussion thread so I guess I'll post this question here.

Someone I was in conversation with said to me that she doesn't judge sex workers, but has a problem with the men who go to see them. In fact this seems to be a common thing. I feel like I must be too far gone or just seen too much to think of it this way, but I DO remember having this visceral negative reaction to the idea of men who will pay for sex or sexual entertainment from women when I was a teenager. I just don't remember why. I think it had something to do with how angry I felt in my daily interactions with men (I mean street harassment, the treatment from boys at school, the daily sexism that comes as a shock when you're young and just learning how the world at large sees you when you're female.) but I don't remember if there was a direct link in my consciousness between that and my feeling about men in strip clubs, massage parlours, etc.

I hope I'm not rambling..My question comes down to the fact that I know it's a common feeling among women, even though I lost that plot somewhere, or the way it felt like a truism to me before. What do you, anyone who's read this far, think (or feel) is the real difference between men who see sex workers and men who don't (or won't)? Thanks.

[roquelaure]

i was debating just where to post this, but i decided here is the best. it isn't exactly about feminism, but semi-related to the legality/illegality of porn.

has anyone heard about this?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...ft=1&f=1003

i'm dumbfounded.

i'm of the "porn = yay women" school of thought. i also think pornography and material artifacts of sex in general are some of the most valuable pieces of culture humans can save (i mean- the base point of civilization is to PRODUCE, right??). but even if i wasn't, this is one of the worst forms of the destruction of culture that i've seen in years. i'm a curator, so every time i read about, say, a place where something historical occurred being destroyed for mcmansions makes my blood boil, but when it comes to something that could have been easily been passed on to people who could treat them with respect and recognize their cultural worth being obliterated from the planet brings me to angry tears.

i mean, i happen to think the majority of television shows and movies from the 1950's, not to mention books and magazines, that enforce the whole a woman's place is in the home ideal, or even better all the shit that's tossed at me these days about how women in their thirties better be birthin' babies soon or their lives won't be complete, and i don't deserve my ovaries unless i own a minivan, is the most appalling and offensive media in the past 100 years. however, i also respect it as a reflection of and lesson on the times, so i'm not going to go out and... and... find all prints of Leave it to Beaver and destroy them.

UGH! sorry. end rant...

[missjuliet]

Hey BUSTies.

I created the thread Porn and Boys, and all I can say is wow. I can't believe this discussion has kept going for so long! I'm happy it has though, because it is a touchy subject, and something that isn't addressed nearly enough.

It's been two years since my first post and my views have changed immensely. I educated myself much more, and mainly I've concluded that the subject and questions cannot be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no' or 'good' or bad.' It is much much more complicated than that, which I'm sure many of you can agree with considering all of the discussions/arguments that have risen concerning it.

I think mainly what it should come down to on the other hand, is what each kind of porn or act acts as at its core. The physical or emotional repercussions that may arise, or the damage to the individual are what should be assessed, not the porn or act itself.

The fact that the government is getting more involved doesn't really surprise me. It's happened throughout history. Maybe we're just hitting another landmark, reaching a new level of what we're comfortable with. This new comfort will always be daunting to some, but it's most likely just a matter of time before it's more widely accepted.

Which leads me to my question, do any of you feel as if this is the case? That as humans we are just becoming more sexual and are only going through a sexual evolution, if you will, of what is acceptable and what is not?

I can see trends already, with aggressive porn being viewed by younger and younger eyes. I've witnessed people getting so immune to certain types of porn that they need to reach higher (or lower may be more appropriate) for whatever will reach them sexually, and I'm not sure how to feel about it in relation to the attitudes toward women. I'm just curious as to how others feel, mainly about how and if it will affect our cultures. And whether the effect of this will be negative or positive, for all genders and sexes.

Thoughts?

- missjuliet

[missjuliet]

\

[auralpoison]

So he's guilty of distribution.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jun/06/na...-in-obscenity-/

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this. I'm glad he got nailed, but they basically pissed on, vomited on, & slapped around the First Amendment to do it.

I know that the women in his films are willing participants, if not he'd have been sued by scores of women long ago. I know they're getting *paid* to act humiliated & that there are rumours that they are given ipecac to make them hurl because that's his "gonzo" schtick of female humilation. I still think it's heinous, but they are consenting.

This brings up some questions about the generation of kiddie porn without actual kids.

http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2008/06/05/is-...r-illegal-porn/

[auralpoison]

I HATE this guy. I mean, I really hate him. He's scum. I've seen some of his work & it's the most humilating garbage produced. The bit I saw had a girl showing that she had just turned eighteen that day. He slapped her around & forced his penis into her throat so violently that she threw up on them both. He made her keep going. By the end of the scene her makeup is a mess & she's even more thoroughy degraded when he asks her to say hi to her dad because she's a whore now.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/may/29/ju...core-porn-case/

This was interesting, too.

http://www.kutv.com/content/news/watercool...e4-2cd6e1c31b37

[anarch]

Don't know if this has been posted before, but I just found this & it's entertaining reading: Ali Davis's True Porn Clerk Stories

[mornington]

I was just going to come in and post that, AP...

the legislation strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction that links A to B without taking in factor C (him being wacko). My thought is that instead of making porn/kinky sex "safer", it will have the opposite effect, by driving it underground, less regulated (although tbh the bdsm scene seems fairly self-regulated, at least from the pov of an interested outsider) and hence more dangerous in itself. I also have to wonder where the line is drawn - is porn that shows bondage illegal? or asphyxiation? Who is judging what is "an act which threatens or appears to threaten a person's life" (to quote the bill itself)? Will this mean ann summers will no longer be able to sell floggers? Are we going to have raids on people's houses a la before homosexuality was legalised?

and culture... exactly. it's nobody's but mine and the person doing the spanking as long as we're consensual.

[culturehandy]

AP I read the maria claire article, interesting stuff. The article about banning porn which "appears" to hurt people. This really is moralizing behaviour. I've always thought that what occurs between consenting adults is no one's business. As for the man who raped and murdered the woman, how is banning that kind of porn going help? The man is a sociopath. he liked the power from the rape, not from the rape himself, but then again, that's what rape is. It's about power and hate.

I couldn't access one of the articles at work, admin blocks. I'll check it out when I get at home.

Why is it anyone business if I want to be spanked? I'm consenting. Maybe this should go in the bdsm thread...